From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Apr 15 17:50:43 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PGCanada] PG of Canada details Message-ID: Greetings to all, I am excited about the potential of Project Gutenberg of Canada. But so far, I don't know much about it. So I've put together a list of questions regarding various aspects of it, generally trying to see if there is anything we can learn by comparison with PG and PG-Au. I believe it would be worth-while to consider these issues and have a consistent plan ready rather than just wait until a situation comes up and then deal with it on an ad hoc basis. I acknowledge some of these may already be in place, and some may not need to be addressed for some time yet. Some of these topics have shown themselves to cause strong differences of opinion on the gutvol-d mailing list. I would request that we avoid flame wars about them here. Filenames and Directory structure As the post-10,000 changeover at PG shows, this is worth taking the time to consider carefully. I like the way the current PG system puts all the files relating to one eBook in the same subdirectory. PG-au is using one subdirectory for each release year, with each filename including the year, ebook number in that year, and version. However, that will not scale upwards well if ebook production increases. Given a choice between these two, I personally prefer the post-10,000 PG method. Will we have one basic, authoritative file format? >From postings I've seen on the gutvol-d mailing list, I would hazard a guess that some form of pgxml will likely be proposed by James. If so, that would seem to me to indicate a likelihood of using UTF-8 as a default encoding. Another seemingly logical choice would be to use mostly ISO-Latin-1, and other parts of ISO 8895 when appropriate. Do we restrict or encourage certain formats or encodings? At PG-US the preference is still to go with having a plain 7-bit ASCII version available whenever possible. At PG-AU, Col has said posting just an ISO-Latin-1 version is fine. My own preference is to go for consistency in whatever route is taken. How will we handle corrections? At PG-US, when there are a small number of corrections, the file is changed with just a "last updated" line to show it was changed. For a larger number of corrections a new file is posted to superced the old one, and the old one is still kept in the archive. At PG-Au, a corrected eBook has "last updated" info added and the old file is deleted, with the new one taking its place. Selection criteria: exclusively Canadiana? As I understand PG-Ca is hoping to have funding (from a government source?) does that mean we will have a mandate to pursue just Canadiana? Selection criteria: Overlap with PG and PG-au PG-au is likely to have some similar texts as their copyright laws are similar to ours. Would we want to have a policy of trying to include everything found there--or keeping a distinct collection with no duplication--or just letting things happen as they may? Assuming a focus on Canadiana, would we want to make an effort to include all Canadiana in PG in this collection? What metadata stored in database I would love to have, right from the start, a clear expectation of what metadata we hope to record for each item, and as consistent as possible a way to record it. Will we have an official copyright clearance procedure? Just recently, I was thinking that one of the strong points of the Project Gutenberg collection is that it may be the largest collection of documented public domain material in existence. From what I understand, all copyright clearances are saved, so they can be referred back to if needed. In contrast, at PG-au, from what I've seen, you can just submit an eBook without getting formal clearance before-hand. Mirroring? Backup? Long-term stability. One reason I feel my time is well-spent as a PG volunteer is that the collection appears very permanent, and I feel that my contributions are not going to be lost over the years. I could not envision the PG archive disappearing as long as there is an internet. What plans would be ideal to encourage the same for PG-ca? Andrew From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Thu Apr 15 18:51:54 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:51:54 -0400 Subject: [PGCanada] PG of Canada details In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am excited about the potential of Project Gutenberg of Canada. > But so far, I don't know much about it. Andrew, thanks for starting the discussion! I'm officially, the "founder" of PG-Canada, and I know only a little more than you at this point. That's the idea behind this dicussion list. :-) > So I've put together a list of questions regarding various > aspects of it, generally trying to see if there is anything > we can learn by comparison with PG and PG-Au. I think we can learn a lot by comparing to PG and PGAU... mostly, what _NOT_ to do. > I believe it would be worth-while to consider these issues > and have a consistent plan ready rather than just wait until > a situation comes up and then deal with it on an ad hoc basis. I concur. > Some of these topics have shown themselves to cause strong > differences of opinion on the gutvol-d mailing list. I > would request that we avoid flame wars about them here. Again, I concur. :o) > Filenames and Directory structure > > As the post-10,000 changeover at PG shows, this is worth > taking the time to consider carefully. I like the way > the current PG system puts all the files relating to > one eBook in the same subdirectory. PG-au is using > one subdirectory for each release year, with each filename > including the year, ebook number in that year, and version. > However, that will not scale upwards well if ebook > production increases. Given a choice between these two, > I personally prefer the post-10,000 PG method. Between the two options you stated, I prefer the PGAFS (Project Gutenberg Archive File System) over the PGAU idea much better. To be honest, I'm hoping to come up with an even better idea, as I don't really like PGAFS much either. > Will we have one basic, authoritative file format? > > >From postings I've seen on the gutvol-d mailing list, I would > hazard a guess that some form of pgxml will likely be proposed > by James. If so, that would seem to me to indicate a likelihood > of using UTF-8 as a default encoding. Another seemingly logical > choice would be to use mostly ISO-Latin-1, and other parts of > ISO 8895 when appropriate. Yes, we will have one authorative file format - XML of some sort, and probably UTF-16 encoding. > Do we restrict or encourage certain formats or encodings? > > At PG-US the preference is still to go with having a plain 7-bit > ASCII version available whenever possible. At PG-AU, Col has said > posting just an ISO-Latin-1 version is fine. My own preference is > to go for consistency in whatever route is taken. ONLY the XML will be considered authorative. All other formats will be generated automatically from that XML master. This is _one_ concept that is not really open to discussion. PG's biggest problem is format of the ebooks, a problem we will _not_ have. Other formats will be accepted, but only if they can be converted to the XML format, preferably via automated means, but at worst, manually. Naturally, we want to keep such submissions to a minimum, so it will be key to provide tools to create the XML format (or at least a psuedo XML that we can easily import) for people to use. > How will we handle corrections? > > At PG-US, when there are a small number of corrections, the file is > changed with just a "last updated" line to show it was changed. For a > larger number of corrections a new file is posted to superced the old > one, and the old one is still kept in the archive. At PG-Au, a corrected > eBook has "last updated" info added and the old file is deleted, with > the new one taking its place. ALL changed to a text will be logged, and the proper versioning noted in the file. We will make a backup of the master before updating it. Versions will be in _standard_ notation: major.minor.revision In this context, each part of the version number means: Major: the first "release" will always be major version 1 (1.0.0); Changing a file's primary structure (ie: fixing a missing chapter or page, etc) will result in a major version change. Minor: a minor version change will be done when 10 or more (approx) changes are done at once, so long as they are not changes as noted in the "major" definition. The minor changes would include adjusting metadata, fixing multiple typographic errors, etc. Revision: a revision change will be done when small corrections are made such as fixing a broken paragraph or adjusting the indenting on a stanza of poetry, etc. ALL corrections to a text will be done by automated systems (ie: web interface), so versioning will be handled by the system as well. Additionally, a 3 character language code will ALWAYS be appended to the version. IE: 1.0.0-eng would mean the text is the first release in English. This means that a text with the version of 1.0.0-spa would be a direct Spanish translation of 1.0.0-eng. > Selection criteria: exclusively Canadiana? > > As I understand PG-Ca is hoping to have funding (from a > government source?) does that mean we will have a mandate > to pursue just Canadiana? Initially, I think we should concentrate on Canadiana initially, because it will be easier to get funding with such content, but I have no intention of limiting it. That would be repository suicide, eh? Also, it would be nice to get a definitive collection of digital Canadiana online -- a good flagship project for a group called "PG of Canada". :-) Personally, I plan to work on locating and digitizing all of Nikola Tesla's work (ranging from 1890s to 1930s) at some point, even though he was Croatian / American. It's of personal interest to me, and said content is not generally available already, at least not a lot of it. Another "flagship" project that will, hopefully, put PG Canada "on the map". > Selection criteria: Overlap with PG and PG-au > > PG-au is likely to have some similar texts as their copyright laws > are similar to ours. Would we want to have a policy of trying to > include everything found there--or keeping a distinct collection > with no duplication--or just letting things happen as they may? > Assuming a focus on Canadiana, would we want to make an effort > to include all Canadiana in PG in this collection? We will overlap work if ANY of the following condition are NOT met: 1) Full book scan images must be available. 2) _Legal_ copyright clearance assured and record. 3) Content is properly structured and marked up. > What metadata stored in database > > I would love to have, right from the start, a clear expectation > of what metadata we hope to record for each item, and as > consistent as possible a way to record it. We will start with a fully automated system, including cataloging. The catalog will exceed standard library catalog standards and will extend to include any metadata we need to store. At minimum, metadata will be: Title Author(s) Editor(s) Illustrator(s) Preparer(s) Publisher(s) Edition(s) Published Year(s) LOC call number (if available) LOC subject heading Dewey Decimal assignment (if available) ISBN (if available/applicable) Language(s) Description (of original print media, IE: hardcover, dimensions, etc) If item is from a periodical the following will be added to above list: Volume Publication Month(s) ISSN (if available/applicable) > Will we have an official copyright clearance procedure? > > Just recently, I was thinking that one of the strong points > of the Project Gutenberg collection is that it may be the > largest collection of documented public domain material > in existence. From what I understand, all copyright > clearances are saved, so they can be referred back to > if needed. In contrast, at PG-au, from what I've seen, > you can just submit an eBook without getting formal > clearance before-hand. Yes, we will have an official clearance system as part of the automated system. Anyone know of a Canadian lawyer or ten who might be interested in pro bono work for PG Canada? > Mirroring? Backup? Long-term stability. > > One reason I feel my time is well-spent as a PG volunteer > is that the collection appears very permanent, and I feel > that my contributions are not going to be lost over the years. > I could not envision the PG archive disappearing as long as > there is an internet. What plans would be ideal to encourage > the same for PG-ca? I already have tentative agreements with two well-known, very permanent places. I'll give out names when I have things more firmly worked out, but I will say they are already familiar with PG. I'm also working on a couple of Canadian mirrors. Any other locations that might be interested would be good - a project like this can never have too many backups/mirrors. Regards, James Linden Founder, Project Gutenberg of Canada jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Thu Apr 15 19:11:54 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:11:54 -0400 Subject: [PGCanada] Early Todo List Message-ID: We have some needs to address in the near (and/or immediate) future: 1) Non Profit Organization. At least one lawyer to help setup the PG of Canada non-profit organization. Pro-bono work is pretty much our only option right now. Coming up with the funds to register the non-profit, etc is going to be difficult enough. 2) Lawyer(s). We need them for continuing work as copyright experts and for copyright clearance questions. Again, pro-bono. 3) Logo. Naturally, we'll probably want to include the standard maple leaf. :-) The only idea I've had is to somehow incorporate the printing press (from PG's logo), a maple leaf, and something to represent "the future", maybe a gear (aka "cog"), or something. We'll want something that will look good online, on print matter (posters, letterhead, bookmarks, business cards, etc), and on CDs and DVDs. 4) Website. We should get a good website up and running as soon as possible. I don't have the time to write a custom CMS, so I'm thinking we should use something like PHP-Nuke or Nucleus, or one of the other PHP-based solutions. If there is another PHP programmer lurking who is interested in writing something custom, speak up, eh? 5) Organizational Stucture. I'm keenly interested in starting with a proper organizational structure for PG of Canada. We've seen the ruckus on gutvol-d, etc -- let's avoid that, eh? 6) Volunteers. Naturally, PG of Canada will stand on the shoulders of volunteers. If you have anything to contribute, post your list of "I'd like to..." to the list. Please include some sort of personal intro if you do -- I'd like to get to know everyone, and I'm sure everyone would like to get to know you too. If I need to post an intro to myself, say so, but as I've been pretty outspoken on the PG lists, I'm thinking it's probably not needed. :-p 7) Discussion. We need plenty of discussion about every aspect of PG Canada. -------------------------------------- Incidentally, the name is "Project Gutenberg of Canada", aka "PG Canada" or "PG of Canada" -- not "PGCA" :-) Regards, James Linden Founder, Project Gutenberg of Canada jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ From stsolomo at soilandhealth.org Thu Apr 15 21:40:10 2004 From: stsolomo at soilandhealth.org (Steve Solomon) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:40:10 +1000 Subject: [PGCanada] PG of Canada details References: Message-ID: <000101c423a4$454169a0$114f8b90@steveco9embchc> And I would like to lodge my main concern with PG Canada. It is possible to extend the offering beyond what is public domain and material with copyright but with valid permission to offer it. It is possible to offer any book that is out of print. I do this at Soil and Health Library. I already am doing it, by functioning as a LIBRARY. With patrons. Who lodge formal requests for book copies. Copies of out of print books that have current copyright protection. This has been characterized as operating on the "bleeding edge" of copyright law. If PG Canada is willing to consider extending the limits in this direction then I am offering support and participation. If PG Canada is going to play it safe, then I have no time for it. Steve Solomon http://www.soilandhealth.org/ From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Fri Apr 16 07:00:30 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:00:30 -0400 Subject: [PGCanada] PG of Canada details In-Reply-To: <000101c423a4$454169a0$114f8b90@steveco9embchc> Message-ID: > This has been characterized as operating on the "bleeding edge" of > copyright law. > > If PG Canada is willing to consider extending the limits in this > direction then I am offering support and participation. If PG Canada is > going to play it safe, then I have no time for it. I have no issue with this, once we have a lawyer to help us clearly define the "bleeding edge". Regards, James Linden Founder, Project Gutenberg of Canada jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ From hart at beryl.ils.unc.edu Fri Apr 16 09:39:07 2004 From: hart at beryl.ils.unc.edu (Michael Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PGCanada] Early Todo List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, James Linden wrote: > We have some needs to address in the near (and/or immediate) future: > > 1) Non Profit Organization. > At least one lawyer to help setup the PG of Canada non-profit organization. > Pro-bono work is pretty much our only option right now. Coming up with the > funds to register the non-profit, etc is going to be difficult enough. How much will this cost? > > 2) Lawyer(s). > We need them for continuing work as copyright experts and for copyright > clearance questions. Again, pro-bono. We have had amazing luck with heads of law libraries at various universities. > > 3) Logo. > Naturally, we'll probably want to include the standard maple leaf. :-) The > only idea I've had is to somehow incorporate the printing press (from PG's > logo), a maple leaf, and something to represent "the future", maybe a gear > (aka "cog"), or something. We'll want something that will look good online, > on print matter (posters, letterhead, bookmarks, business cards, etc), and > on CDs and DVDs. You could add the maple leaf to the printing press logo in several ways: 1. Put it on the CD. . .this would be at a stiff angle, and might require adding a CD that is out of the press. 2. Put it on the upper frame of the printing press. 3. Put it on the lower frame. 4. Superimpose the entire press on an even larger maple leaf. 5. Superimpose the text of the business cards on a maple leaf. > > 4) Website. > We should get a good website up and running as soon as possible. I don't > have the time to write a custom CMS, so I'm thinking we should use something > like PHP-Nuke or Nucleus, or one of the other PHP-based solutions. If there > is another PHP programmer lurking who is interested in writing something > custom, speak up, eh? We might be able to find some people to send you templates to work up from. [Just ask, and I'll see what I can do] > > 5) Organizational Stucture. > I'm keenly interested in starting with a proper organizational structure > for PG of Canada. We've seen the ruckus on gutvol-d, etc -- let's avoid > that, eh? Obviously, I have that this can be its own problem. I've seen all too many efforts never get started because they spent so much energy on how to get started, how to control, etc., before there was anything there to be controlled. . . . > 6) Volunteers. > Naturally, PG of Canada will stand on the shoulders of volunteers. If you > have anything to contribute, post your list of "I'd like to..." to the list. > Please include some sort of personal intro if you do -- I'd like to get to > know everyone, and I'm sure everyone would like to get to know you too. If I > need to post an intro to myself, say so, but as I've been pretty outspoken > on the PG lists, I'm thinking it's probably not needed. :-p I'm always happy to help, and to be listed as an anonymous volunteer, which is the way I signed most of my work for Project Gutenberg. "There is no end to the great things we can accomplish if we don't worry about who gets the credit." - Anon. > 7) Discussion. > We need plenty of discussion about every aspect of PG Canada. > Incidentally, the name is "Project Gutenberg of Canada", aka "PG Canada" > or "PG of Canada" -- not "PGCA" :-) I've found that people usually choose the shortest alternative. . . . Michael From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri Apr 16 10:05:02 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PGCanada] Copyright issues In-Reply-To: <000101c423a4$454169a0$114f8b90@steveco9embchc> References: <000101c423a4$454169a0$114f8b90@steveco9embchc> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, Steve Solomon wrote: > It is possible to extend the offering beyond what is public domain and > material with copyright but with valid permission to offer it. It is > possible to offer any book that is out of print. I do this at Soil and > Health Library. I already am doing it, by functioning as a LIBRARY. I believe the relevant Canadian laws that would govern how this could be done can be found here: EXCEPTION FOR EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, LIBRARIES, ARCHIVES AND MUSEUMS REGULATIONS http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/SOR-99-325/79228.html A potentially interesting possibility (regarding copyright) is that the Copyright Board of Canada does issue non-exclusive licences allowing works to be used, if you can show you have made every effort to locate the copyright holder, and have been unsuccesful. Unlocatable Copyright Owners http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/unlocatable/index-e.html This page includes a list of such works licenses have been granted for, and as they are non-exclusive, could conceivably be legal for PG of Canada to use. Of course, more legal research would be needed before doing this. Andrew From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Fri Apr 16 10:19:41 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:19:41 -0400 Subject: [PGCanada] Early Todo List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, James Linden wrote: > > > We have some needs to address in the near (and/or immediate) future: > > > > 1) Non Profit Organization. > > At least one lawyer to help setup the PG of Canada > non-profit organization. > > Pro-bono work is pretty much our only option right now. Coming > up with the > > funds to register the non-profit, etc is going to be difficult enough. > > How much will this cost? Hard to know until they (Canadian Gov.) actually tell us, but based on fee tables, etc, it will be a couple hundred Canadian dollars. Information on the CanGov sites is annoyingly hard to read, so I could be inaccurate. I'll make a few phone calls and see if I can come up with an accurate number today. > > 2) Lawyer(s). > > We need them for continuing work as copyright experts and > for copyright > > clearance questions. Again, pro-bono. > > We have had amazing luck with heads of law libraries at various > universities. Naturally, we pretty much need a Canadian lawyer. Do you know any heads of law libraries in Canada? > > 3) Logo. > > Naturally, we'll probably want to include the standard > maple leaf. :-) The > > only idea I've had is to somehow incorporate the printing press > (from PG's > > logo), a maple leaf, and something to represent "the future", > maybe a gear > > (aka "cog"), or something. We'll want something that will look > good online, > > on print matter (posters, letterhead, bookmarks, business > cards, etc), and > > on CDs and DVDs. > > You could add the maple leaf to the printing press logo in several ways: > > 1. Put it on the CD. . .this would be at a stiff angle, and might require > adding a CD that is out of the press. > > 2. Put it on the upper frame of the printing press. > > 3. Put it on the lower frame. > > 4. Superimpose the entire press on an even larger maple leaf. > > 5. Superimpose the text of the business cards on a maple leaf. All good ideas. I'll be sure to mention them if/when a graphically oriented volunteer shows themselves. :-) > > > > 4) Website. > > We should get a good website up and running as soon as > possible. I don't > > have the time to write a custom CMS, so I'm thinking we should > use something > > like PHP-Nuke or Nucleus, or one of the other PHP-based > solutions. If there > > is another PHP programmer lurking who is interested in writing something > > custom, speak up, eh? > > We might be able to find some people to send you templates to > work up from. > > [Just ask, and I'll see what I can do] Who/where would you recommend asking? > > > > 5) Organizational Stucture. > > I'm keenly interested in starting with a proper > organizational structure > > for PG of Canada. We've seen the ruckus on gutvol-d, etc -- let's avoid > > that, eh? > > I've seen all too many efforts never get started because they > spent so much energy on how to get started, how to control, > etc., before there was anything there to be controlled. . . . We are already started, and each day I try to do at least one task related to PG Canada. :-) > > 6) Volunteers. > > Naturally, PG of Canada will stand on the shoulders of > volunteers. If you > > have anything to contribute, post your list of "I'd like to..." > to the list. > > Please include some sort of personal intro if you do -- I'd > like to get to > > know everyone, and I'm sure everyone would like to get to know > you too. If I > > need to post an intro to myself, say so, but as I've been > pretty outspoken > > on the PG lists, I'm thinking it's probably not needed. :-p > > I'm always happy to help, and to be listed as an anonymous volunteer, > which is the way I signed most of my work for Project Gutenberg. I seriously dislike anonymous, but if that's how you want it... > > Incidentally, the name is "Project Gutenberg of Canada", aka > "PG Canada" > > or "PG of Canada" -- not "PGCA" :-) > > I've found that people usually choose the shortest alternative. . . . Too bad -- they can pay the trademark infringement fines for using PGCA then. I'm still waiting on the actual search results from the IP office up here, but there was at least one "hit" for "PGCA" in the DB, but we don't currently know if the trademark was granted, and therefore in effect, or not. Regards, James Linden Founder, Project Gutenberg of Canada jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ From gbnewby at pglaf.org Fri Apr 16 10:55:17 2004 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:55:17 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] Copyright issues In-Reply-To: References: <000101c423a4$454169a0$114f8b90@steveco9embchc> Message-ID: <20040416175517.GA21972@pglaf.org> On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 10:05:02AM -0700, Andrew Sly wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, Steve Solomon wrote: > > > It is possible to extend the offering beyond what is public domain and > > material with copyright but with valid permission to offer it. It is > > possible to offer any book that is out of print. I do this at Soil and > > Health Library. I already am doing it, by functioning as a LIBRARY. > > I believe the relevant Canadian laws that would govern how this could > be done can be found here: > > EXCEPTION FOR EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, LIBRARIES, > ARCHIVES AND MUSEUMS REGULATIONS > > http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/SOR-99-325/79228.html > > > A potentially interesting possibility (regarding copyright) > is that the Copyright Board of Canada does issue non-exclusive > licences allowing works to be used, if you can show you have > made every effort to locate the copyright > holder, and have been unsuccesful. > > > Unlocatable Copyright Owners > > http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/unlocatable/index-e.html > > This page includes a list of such works licenses have > been granted for, and as they are non-exclusive, > could conceivably be legal for PG of Canada to use. > Of course, more legal research would be needed before > doing this. > > Andrew It would be great for PG-CA to pursue such uses. Our lawyers in the US scared us away from this, because it sounds like such exemptions can be handled one at a time, on request -- putting stuff up for general download wouldn't fall under the exception. (Sections 108e and 108h in US Title 17, if I remember correctly). Maybe PG-CA could set a precedent we could use! -- Greg From stsolomo at soilandhealth.org Fri Apr 16 14:21:39 2004 From: stsolomo at soilandhealth.org (Steve Solomon) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 07:21:39 +1000 Subject: [PGCanada] PG of Canada details References: Message-ID: <002b01c423f9$1aa5d140$294f8b90@steveco9embchc> Thank you, James. I will await more information. And hope. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Linden" To: "Project Gutenberg of Canada" Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 12:00 AM Subject: RE: [PGCanada] PG of Canada details > > This has been characterized as operating on the "bleeding edge" of > > copyright law. > > > > If PG Canada is willing to consider extending the limits in this > > direction then I am offering support and participation. If PG Canada is > > going to play it safe, then I have no time for it. > > I have no issue with this, once we have a lawyer to help us clearly define > the "bleeding edge". > > Regards, > James Linden > Founder, Project Gutenberg of Canada > jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca > http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From traverso at dm.unipi.it Thu Apr 22 10:11:24 2004 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:11:24 +0200 Subject: PG* filenames/directoriies (was Re: [PGCanada] PG of Canada details) In-Reply-To: (message from Andrew Sly on Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:50:43 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <200404221711.i3MHBOI17022@posso.dm.unipi.it> The issue of filenaming and directory structure is very important, and worth being discussed in the context of a coordination between PG-like projects. I include in this definition not only projects that use the Project Gutenberg trademark, but also projects that share the goal of PG, and might be partners in a world-wide "Gutenberg Federation". I would like to see the directory structure of several projects to be compatible; this means two important features: - there are no name incompatibilities: a file from one project will not overwrite a file from another. This requires coordination, but a numerical scheme like PG-main or PG-AU forces incompatibilities - the directory structures put together related books of different origin. I would like to see togeter the different volumes of the same work even if they are released in different times; different books of the same author, and originals and translations of the same book, independently of the project that prepared it. A big virtual library might be obtained copying the directory structure of all the projects under the same root; this might be utopian, but an approximation might already be significant. I think that the structure used by Progetto Manuzio is a good one, but should be improved to be adopted. They have a subdivision per letter of the author name, then author name, then a directory per work, and inside a directory per file type. So for example they have a/alighieri/ with index.htm giving informations on the author and a list of available works; inside, a/alighieri/convivio_edizione_busnelli_vandelli/ and a/alighieri/convivio_edizione_vasoli_de_robertis/ and moreover a/alighieri/convivio_edizione_vasoli_de_robertis/rtf/ a/alighieri/convivio_edizione_vasoli_de_robertis/txt/ What I like less, is that both directories contain convivio.zip, hence there is an overwriting possibility when uploading the files. Of course, with 8.3 naming conventions this is unavoidable, but I believe that this now can be overcome. I would like better something like a/alighieri/convivio/edizione_vasoli_de_robertis/txt/convivio_vasoli-txt.zip and a/alighieri/convivio/en/translator_name/txt/convivio_en_tn.zip Of course, such a structure requires a coordination between projects; to avoid having a centralized authority, i would suggest that a default competence be identified, that can be decided by origin (dutch authors of competence of PG-NL) or by first inclusion. The centralized catalogue is however needed: before including a book, an authorization (issued by automatic criteria, possibly by a robot on the basis of the metadata) should be obtained. Of course, such an approach requires advances in the constitution of a "Gutenberg Federation" to handle at least the format of the metadata and the unified catalogue; compliance to the recommendation should be voluntary, but I believe that if the recommendations are useful they will be followed. Carlo From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Apr 22 15:07:10 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: PG* filenames/directories In-Reply-To: <200404221711.i3MHBOI17022@posso.dm.unipi.it> References: <200404221711.i3MHBOI17022@posso.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: A directory something like what Carlo proposed is certainly possible; however, I believe the chance of getting different organizations to all use the same system to be very unlikely. (And if such an attempt was made, many inconsistencies and oddities would inevitably show up.) What I see as a problem with this approach is that it mixes cataloging decisions in with the filename/directory structure. Just from putting together a list of about 200 Canadian books from PG, I found that I had to make judgement calls about what forms of titles and author names to use, and even which authors to credit. I am sure a professional cataloger would not agree with all of my choices. I have submitted numerous error reports in PG cataloging information over the past few years, so I am aware of just how easy it is for them to sneak in. If you already have the author's name hard-coded in a directory name, and then later realize it's been spelled wrong, it would be a major pain to change it, and fix links to it. In contrast, simply using digits, based on ascension numbers, is much more neutral, and easier to correct when the inevitable errors surface. Carlo said: "before including a book, an authorization should be obtained." And that would be the major stumbling block, requiring extra research and cataloging decisions to be made before each and every new eBook is posted. Please note, I'm not saying this type of organization is wrong, or a bad idea, just that it has a potential for causing extra, unanticipated problems. Thanks, Andrew From traverso at dm.unipi.it Thu Apr 22 23:52:19 2004 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:52:19 +0200 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: PG* filenames/directories In-Reply-To: (message from Andrew Sly on Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:07:10 -0700 (PDT)) References: <200404221711.i3MHBOI17022@posso.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: <200404230652.i3N6qJs00642@posso.dm.unipi.it> Surely a PG based on life+n copyright law has to be able to associate a book to authority files. This is necessary for copyright clearance. The full path in the hyerarchy could hence be assigned at the clearance, instead of being extemporary like it is now. A better clearance management and documentation is also necessary to avoid duplication of efforts (this already begins to happen with DP and DP-EU), it might become dramatic with several PG-like projects running in parallel. David Price is doing an excellent work, but a moment will come when his structure will be inadequate, surely well before 1M books. Substantially, I propose to catalogue a book before preparing it. The first steps are already done, with the clearance, and the time between clearance and posting is enough to correct everything. This may be some extra work, since a clearance might result in no posting, but also allows savings in duplication of work between clearance and posting. I see this clearance management as a need in any case, and with this documentation in place a coordinated naming scheme might become straightforward. Carlo