From darryl at moores.ca Tue Nov 9 07:56:35 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:56:35 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca> <4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs and see if we can get others involved! Russell McOrmond wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > > >>Yea that's the right list. There just is no archive of past discussions. >>However from what Wallace says that may be because there haven't been >>any. :-) > > > There are only two months that had any, with Wallace being who tried to > raise the dead in August. > > http://projectgutenberg.ca/ > > > "Coming soon". > > Great to know that this is already started, and Darryl won't be starting > from scratch.. > > From hart at pglaf.org Tue Nov 9 08:04:20 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:04:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca> <4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> Message-ID: I'm wondering if we should host PG Canada on a US site, I'm sure that will upset the lawyers, especailly those involved with Gone With The Wind. Michael On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs and > see if we can get others involved! > > Russell McOrmond wrote: > >> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: >> >> >>> Yea that's the right list. There just is no archive of past discussions. >>> However from what Wallace says that may be because there haven't been >>> any. :-) >> >> >> There are only two months that had any, with Wallace being who tried to >> raise the dead in August. >> >> http://projectgutenberg.ca/ >> >> >> "Coming soon". >> >> Great to know that this is already started, and Darryl won't be starting >> from scratch.. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From darryl at moores.ca Tue Nov 9 08:21:10 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:21:10 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca> <4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4190EE76.3070106@moores.ca> Can't do that! The DMCA notice and take down provisions would force the server to be shut down. Additionally, we as Canadians could quite legitimately be found to be breaking US copyright laws AND a Canadian court could easily agree that the US court has jurisdiction. If we keep everything Canadian from the ISP to the server to the individuals doing the work, and we follow Canadian law diligently, then a Canadian court would be a lot less likely to agree that any US laws would apply. If our courts agree that the US has no jurisdiction, then we are under no obligation to defend ourselves in US court. Lastly, we are not really into this to upset US lawyers. The purpose is to promote the Canadian public domain and fight to keep it. I'd be just as happy if the US were physically incapable of accessing the site. cheers, darryl Michael Hart wrote: > > I'm wondering if we should host PG Canada on a US site, > I'm sure that will upset the lawyers, especailly those > involved with Gone With The Wind. > > Michael > > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > >> Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs >> and see if we can get others involved! >> >> Russell McOrmond wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Yea that's the right list. There just is no archive of past >>>> discussions. However from what Wallace says that may be because >>>> there haven't been any. :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> There are only two months that had any, with Wallace being who >>> tried to raise the dead in August. >>> >>> http://projectgutenberg.ca/ >>> >>> >>> "Coming soon". >>> >>> Great to know that this is already started, and Darryl won't be >>> starting from scratch.. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Project Gutenberg of Canada >> Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ >> List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org >> Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ >> > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From russell at flora.ca Tue Nov 9 08:25:44 2004 From: russell at flora.ca (Russell McOrmond) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:25:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, and FAQ on term of copyright... In-Reply-To: <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca> <4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs > and see if we can get others involved! Great that you have moved this. Quick introductions. I'm the host for the Digital Copyright Canada forum http://www.digital-copyright.ca/ . I'm also co-coordinator of http://www.goslingcommunity.org , and am helping to form The Forum on Privatisation and the Public Domain http://www.ramshorn.ca/PPD/ Darryl Moore got excited about the Project Gutenberg concept as a reply to an article "One Internet, Many Copyright Laws" and the problems with "Gone With the Wind" http://www.digital-copyright.ca/discuss/3986 This lead Darryl, Wallace and myself to eventually find this forum. Looking at the archives it seems that Wallace already know.. A number of topics have come up in our 3-way Cc: list. One thing I would like to see is a FAQ page that details authorship issues (who has first copyright used for life+ calculations) and term for each type of work. I have been asking the question about copyright term in Canada for a while. One message recently was: Term of copyright for corporations (unnatural "persons") http://www.digital-copyright.ca/discuss/3899 Taking the Index of "The 2001 Annotated Copyright Act", by Normand Tamaro, and adding the links to the sections of the act I find. anonymous and pseudonymous works general 6.1 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-6.1 lesser of publication+50 , making+75 - reverts to section 6 if author becomes known... joint ownership 6.1 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-6.2 Same as the general case... cinematographic works 11.1 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-11.1 fixed 50 Crown ownership 12 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-12 fixed 50 foreign authors 9(2) http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-9 May allow term to be decided by foreign country? general 6 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-6 life+50 joint authorship 9(1) http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-9 life of last author+50 photographs 10 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-10 fixed 50 for corporations, refer to section 6 for natural persons. posthumous works 7 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-7 before death is publish+50? This is not clear to read.. Other than for photographs I still don't know the term for corporations. Are they considered joint authorship of the directors of the corporation? If so, how to we determine this to appropriately return these works to the public domain? Note: I am an opponent of life+ terms. Not only does it make determining the term of copyright considerably harder as you need to follow the ownership trail back to the first holder of copyright, but it also suggests a morbid concept of society receiving benefit from the death of a creator. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/life-of-hacker.html#code=law From russell at flora.ca Tue Nov 9 08:31:13 2004 From: russell at flora.ca (Russell McOrmond) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:31:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca> <4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Michael Hart wrote: > I'm wondering if we should host PG Canada on a US site, > I'm sure that will upset the lawyers, especailly those > involved with Gone With The Wind. I assume you mean that we shouldn't be doing so, and that this list is hosted in the US? I note that http://projectgutenberg.ca/ is hosted on Compu-SOLVE Internet Services out of Midland and Barrie Ontario. Is this a site that can host lists? Is the ISP there on-side with the project such that even if Canada gets a "claim and censor" regime that they will appropriately hand these notices off to PG Canada lawyers rather than acting on them? I also run an ISP out of Ottawa, and can host any mailing lists/sites/domains/etc that are needed. I may not have the bandwidth if the site gets huge, but that would be a type of success we can wish for and get funding for when the time comes. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/life-of-hacker.html#code=law From russell at flora.ca Tue Nov 9 08:39:37 2004 From: russell at flora.ca (Russell McOrmond) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:39:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: <4190EE76.3070106@moores.ca> References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca> <4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> <4190EE76.3070106@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > Lastly, we are not really into this to upset US lawyers. The purpose is > to promote the Canadian public domain and fight to keep it. I'd be just > as happy if the US were physically incapable of accessing the site. This is important. This should not be about US laws at all, but the Canadian public domain and Canadian law. We have enough of our own misguided Canadian policy makers to worry about (topic for digital-copyright.ca , probably not here) than always worrying about foreign jurisdictions. Just as US citizens need to fix US law, it is Canadians that need to fix/protect Canadian law. We should host on a site that not only is in Canada, but is with a Canadian ISP that is clearly on-side with the project where the project is not "just a customer". Heritage Committee has recommended Canada adopt the same "claim and censor" regime that the US has. We need to ensure that Canadian law is followed, and that we have Canadian lawyers on-side with the project such that the ISP can simply ignore these SPAM messages claiming to be from copyright holders. For those who haven't seen the Heritage report: http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/view/550 As both a creator and an ISP I would love to be able to file any received "notice and takedown" (claim and censor) messages with the Competition Bureau under "deceptive marketing" and see what happens. I wonder if it is also fraud to claim to be the copyright holder of something when you are not. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/life-of-hacker.html#code=law From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 08:47:20 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 11:47:20 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Russell McOrmond Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 11:31 am Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Michael Hart wrote: > > > I'm wondering if we should host PG Canada on a US site, > > I'm sure that will upset the lawyers, especailly those > > involved with Gone With The Wind. > > I assume you mean that we shouldn't be doing so, and that this > list is hosted in the US? Hosting a PG-Canada in a place that attorns to the jurisdiction of a country with a copyright law different from that of Canada, is like painting a big "Sue Me!" on your ass. If PG was hosted in Canada, Access Copyright would have sued it years ago. From darryl at moores.ca Tue Nov 9 09:18:56 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:18:56 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> Wallace J.McLean wrote: > > Hosting a PG-Canada in a place that attorns to the jurisdiction of a > country with a copyright law different from that of Canada, is like > painting a big "Sue Me!" on your ass. > > If PG was hosted in Canada, Access Copyright would have sued it years > ago. > Quite true. To that end we also must make sure that PG Canada is completely separate from PG US, or start a separate organization. This organization must be incorporated, and it should also be a registered charity. Don't know how to incorporate, but I found the application for charity status here: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t2050/README.html Does anyone know the current legal status of PG Canada? Any lawyers here who want to help set this up properly? Additionally, as was mentioned previously offlist, we need to get some people in the literary field involved, or at least to lend their names. The bigger the names the better. Does anybody know how to contact any big names? I sent an email off to James Linden to try and get some technical information about the current project status. Hopefully I'll here back soon. I'll keep you posted. From hart at pglaf.org Tue Nov 9 09:49:52 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:49:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> References: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > > > Wallace J.McLean wrote: > >> >> Hosting a PG-Canada in a place that attorns to the jurisdiction of a >> country with a copyright law different from that of Canada, is like >> painting a big "Sue Me!" on your ass. >> >> If PG was hosted in Canada, Access Copyright would have sued it years ago. >> > > Quite true. To that end we also must make sure that PG Canada is completely > separate from PG US, or start a separate organization. or both! No reason it should not be a separate organiztion, still called PG of Canada, presuming you like the basic tenets of Project Gutenberg. > This organization must be incorporated, and it should also be a registered > charity. I wouldn't WAIT for this to happen, I would get started right away, strike while the iron is hot! I ran PGUS from 1917 to 2000 before we ever got incorporated and registered. > Don't know how to incorporate, but I found the application for > charity status here: > > http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t2050/README.html > > Does anyone know the current legal status of PG Canada? Any lawyers here who > want to help set this up properly? I can put requests for legal help for you in our Newsletters, etc. > Additionally, as was mentioned previously offlist, we need to get some people > in the literary field involved, or at least to lend their names. The bigger > the names the better. Does anybody know how to contact any big names? I can probably get you some quotes from Marvin Minsky, Vint Cerf, etc., if that would help, not sure how much more they would do. . . . > I sent an email off to James Linden to try and get some technical information > about the current project status. Hopefully I'll here back soon. I'll keep > you posted. Many thanks! Michael From hart at pglaf.org Tue Nov 9 09:51:05 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:51:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> References: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> Message-ID: As I see it, this list is currently operated through pglaf.org which is in the US. . .should we move to a Canadian host? From darryl at moores.ca Tue Nov 9 09:54:17 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:54:17 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> Message-ID: <41910449.9010700@moores.ca> There is no issue that I see to this list being host in the States as the content of the list will not contain any material which infringes anybodies copyright in any country. The important thing is to make sure that the server hosting all the PD works is in Canada and the ISP we are connected to is 100% Canadian. Michael Hart wrote: > > > As I see it, this list is currently operated through pglaf.org > which is in the US. . .should we move to a Canadian host? > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From sly at victoria.tc.ca Tue Nov 9 09:58:42 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Michael Hart wrote: > > I wouldn't WAIT for this to happen, I would get started right away, > strike while the iron is hot! I ran PGUS from 1917 to 2000 before > we ever got incorporated and registered. 1917? Wow! I knew you had dedicated yourself to PG for a long time, Michael, but didn't realize it was _that_ long! :) Andrew From hart at pglaf.org Tue Nov 9 10:15:26 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:15:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Andrew Sly wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Michael Hart wrote: > >> >> I wouldn't WAIT for this to happen, I would get started right away, >> strike while the iron is hot! I ran PGUS from 1917 to 2000 before >> we ever got incorporated and registered. > > 1917? Wow! > I knew you had dedicated yourself to PG for a long time, Michael, > but didn't realize it was _that_ long! :) > > Andrew DAMN! I retyped that!!! Some SERIOUS bugs still in the system!!! ;-) Michael Started PG in 1971 Will be GREAT to have PG of Canada in 2004!!! From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 10:16:09 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:16:09 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Hart Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 12:51 pm Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] > As I see it, this list is currently operated through pglaf.org > which is in the US. . .should we move to a Canadian host? I'd invoke "ain't broke" here. Unless you think it is. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Tue Nov 9 10:17:26 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:17:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca> <4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> Message-ID: It's good to see a little activity on this mailing list. There was a burst of messages when this list was first created (you can see them at http://lists.pglaf.org/pipermail/pgcanada/) discussing possibilities of PG of Canada, but I have not heard anything recently. I know that if we all just wait to join in once "someone else has set it up" then possibly PG of Canada will never see the light of day. However, I havn't seen myself doing anything more useful than just typing up long messages of what "could be possible". And yes, Project Gutenberg is a totally separate entity. As a volunteer organization, PG in the United States simply could not deal with the legal complications that would be brought up in becoming a "multi-national". I believe the only legal relationship is that PG of Canada has been granted the right to use the "Project Gutenberg" trademark. Andrew From darryl at moores.ca Tue Nov 9 10:19:07 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:19:07 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <4190FC00.5040903@moores.ca> Message-ID: <41910A1B.6020606@moores.ca> Michael Hart wrote: > > I wouldn't WAIT for this to happen, I would get started right away, > strike while the iron is hot! I ran PGUS from 1917 to 2000 before > we ever got incorporated and registered. > I wasn't planning on waiting. I've asked a few people I know if they can help, or know someone who can. I believe now with the very different national copyright laws and the very big US corporations who are so quick to litigate that it would not be smart to proceed without the proper corporate framework and appropriate legal advise. However certain things can be done in tandem. There is no reason we can't get the web site up and running while we get the legalities sorted out. Once we get a better grip of it all and have some idea of timelines we should be able to set a publication date. Hopefully before Christmas. > >> Don't know how to incorporate, but I found the application for charity >> status here: >> >> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t2050/README.html >> >> Does anyone know the current legal status of PG Canada? Any lawyers >> here who want to help set this up properly? > > > I can put requests for legal help for you in our Newsletters, etc. > Anything like that would be great. Just keep in mind that it is Canadian legal advice we are after. I'm not sure how much help a US lawyer would be. > >> Additionally, as was mentioned previously offlist, we need to get some >> people in the literary field involved, or at least to lend their >> names. The bigger the names the better. Does anybody know how to >> contact any big names? > > > I can probably get you some quotes from Marvin Minsky, Vint Cerf, etc., > if that would help, not sure how much more they would do. . . . > That would help. But the most helpful would be an endorsement by prominent Canadian authors such as Pierre Button, Margaret Atwood, John Ralston Saul and others. From darryl at moores.ca Tue Nov 9 10:42:14 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:42:14 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] website Message-ID: <41910F86.4060502@moores.ca> I looked through some of the archives and saw that quite a bit of thought has been put into the technical issues of the website itself. Rather than reinvent the wheel can we just copy the entire Gutenberg html code and scripts and use that as a template? What is the copyright status of that? Once we have the site working, I'd say we go through every item in the Gutenberg database and add those items which are public domain according to Canadian law. Though I think I might start with "Gone with the Wind" :-). Concurrent to all this of course, we can working on getting all our legal ducks in a row. Comments would be appreciated. From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue Nov 9 10:44:40 2004 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:44:40 -0800 Subject: [PGCanada] website In-Reply-To: <41910F86.4060502@moores.ca> References: <41910F86.4060502@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20041109184440.GA24196@pglaf.org> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 01:42:14PM -0500, Darryl Moore wrote: > I looked through some of the archives and saw that quite a bit of > thought has been put into the technical issues of the website itself. > > Rather than reinvent the wheel can we just copy the entire Gutenberg > html code and scripts and use that as a template? What is the copyright > status of that? Yes, you can copy anything. Email Marcello for help/info - I also have access to mostly everything. Marcello Perathoner But I think it's too complex to copy as a whole, and too integrated with the iBiblio server it rests on. More likely you'll want to start afresh, but liberally use the existing gutenberg.org code/infrastructure/database, etc. -- Greg From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 10:59:20 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:59:20 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Sly Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 1:17 pm Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. > And yes, Project Gutenberg is a totally separate entity. > As a volunteer organization, PG in the United States simply > could not deal with the legal complications that would be > brought up in becoming a "multi-national". > > I believe the only legal relationship is that PG of Canada has been > granted the right to use the "Project Gutenberg" trademark. I think that's correct as well. The other thing that would/should have to be done, would be to open up a relationship with Distributed Proofreaders to create a third DP site (in addition to PGDP and DP-EU). That's more technical than legal, as the (amazing) DP infrastructure is developed on a share-and-share-alike basis. From traverso at dm.unipi.it Tue Nov 9 11:43:12 2004 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:43:12 +0100 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. In-Reply-To: (ag737@freenet.carleton.ca) References: Message-ID: <200411091943.iA9JhBT9030887@posso.dm.unipi.it> >>>>> "Wallace" == Wallace J McLean writes: Wallace> The other thing that would/should have to be done, would Wallace> be to open up a relationship with Distributed Wallace> Proofreaders to create a third DP site (in addition to Wallace> PGDP and DP-EU). That's more technical than legal, as the Wallace> (amazing) DP infrastructure is developed on a Wallace> share-and-share-alike basis. Does this have a technical motivation? (for example, avoid the complications of UTF-8 being life+50) Or just to have a companion to PG-CA? The effort to bring up a DP site is non negligeable, much more than overcoming the utf-8 barier; DP-EU still has space to grow, and will surely welcome new forces. For example, our waiting lists are empty, anything that you want to post is welcome. When DP-EU has grown, and canadian squirrels matured, detaching a canadian clone might be much easier. Currently, a division of efforts might create problems to both. Carlo From lm19 at post.queensu.ca Tue Nov 9 12:28:40 2004 From: lm19 at post.queensu.ca (Laura Murray) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:28:40 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] forward from another list Message-ID: Hi all. Sorry to drop in out of the blue like this. Russell McO sent an email to another list I'm on--fyi, this is what it generated--he thought it might be useful to you. I'm afraid that I have no time or expertise to lend to PGCanada, but do encourage those who do to contact some of the people mentioned below at CIHM, UofT, etc. I don't know the backgrounds of the people on this list, so please don't take this as a criticism, but in general I tend to think that there is greater point AND greater legal safety in a project that comes demonstrably out of a genuine desire to share literature than one that is mainly trying to make a point. If somebody wants to go and put GWTW up there online, that's fine, but I would think that PG would want to protect its brand name as it were and see a full-fledged site going even if it takes longer. Maybe there are Canlit people there who want such a site. You might try to contact Can lit profs--two at my university are Tracy Ware and Leslie Ritchie--and see if it's something they'd need or like to see or like to help with, and/or how it would complement existing resources. Grad students in English would be a great group to tap too. Or Library Science students. I'd love to see it there but I have to limit myself to spectatorship at the moment. All the very best, L. On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Wallace J.McLean wrote: >> I've previously posted a link to the second-largest Canadian "public >> domain" project I know of, Classiques des sciences sociales: >> >> http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/zone30/Classiques_des_sciences_sociales/ >> html/ >> biblio_accueil.html >> >> The largest is, of course, canadiana.org CIHM has an understanding >> with >> Project Gutenberg in the US that PG can use any of their book scans of >> works which are eligible under the PG copyright rules (the US law). In >> fact, a PG volunteer has produced a wonderful program called "Snatch" >> which automates the process of downloading public-domain book scans >> from various sites around the world, including canadiana.org, to >> accellerate the conversion process. These scans are then run through >> Distributed Proofreading: www.pgdp.net >> >> This infrastructure has already been "exported" to a similar project >> in >> Europe. However, even though the single largest national "team" of >> PDGP >> volunteers is Team Canada, PG-Canada just doesn't seem to want to fly. >> >> There's also ourroots.ca, which is a mishmash of PD- and non-PD >> material, but I understand Snatch has been re-written to extract page >> scans from that site as well. ourroots.ca concentrates on local >> histories (which may or may not be PD), while canadiana.org >> concentrates on historic Canadian of all types (most of which is PD, >> and CIHM has an "unlocatable" license to cover its ass in the outlying >> cases.) And from me earlier the same day: Hi. I'd recommend contacting Ian Lancashire at UofT who does the Representative Poetry project (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/index.cfm). If he isn't interested in hosting/helping, he will know others. I don't know who Daryl is, but it would be nice to get some literary people involved so it wasn't just done to make a point, but rather to make literary materials available... ;-). There are probably Canadian literary ezines out there who might be into it. Or check out Coach House Press? All for now, L. Laura J. Murray Associate Professor Department of English Queen's University Kingston, Canada K7L 3N6 phone: 613-533-6000 x74438 fax: 613-533-6872 email: LM19 at post.queensu.ca website: www.faircopyright.ca -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3687 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 12:35:58 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:35:58 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlo Traverso Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. > Does this have a technical motivation? (for example, avoid the > complications of UTF-8 being life+50) Or just to have a companion to > PG-CA? A legal one: Stuff that would be eligible for a PG-Canada, and hence likely to draw even more Canadian volunteers, can't always legally be done through DP-INT. There are thousands of PD works under life+50 in Canada that won't be eligible under the PG/DP American copyright rules. We could do them in an all-Canadian site, but not the existing PG/DP site. Or, we can funnel it all through DP-EU, assuming that there are no further complications legally. Do they operate under life+50, and if so where are they depositing their texts? > The effort to bring up a DP site is non negligeable, much more > than overcoming the utf-8 barier; DP-EU still has space to grow, and > will surely welcome new forces. For example, our waiting lists are > empty, anything that you want to post is welcome. When DP-EU has > grown, and canadian squirrels matured, detaching a canadian clone > might be much easier. Currently, a division of efforts might create > problems to both. And on the other hand, an all-Canadian, or an international non- national life+50 version of DP might help draw more volunteers out of the woodwork. On the Project Gutenberg business itself, setting aside the big and valuable and important work done by the DP annex, a Canadian branch plant would allow the "Canadian editions" of PG texts -- whether transferred from PG where eligible, or created under life+ rules outside the US -- to get (free) ISBNs for those editions. This may have usefulness down the road, as has been discussed on the DP forums. From darryl at moores.ca Tue Nov 9 14:05:32 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:05:32 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] PG Canada Inc! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41913F2C.7030400@moores.ca> Hello list, I just got off the phone with a lawyer named Don Johnston who is aware of Project Gutenberg. He agrees that we need a corporation to indemnify the participants and he is willing to help us create a federally incorporated charity, pro bono. Unfortunately there are still costs. While significantly cheaper than they would otherwise be, they are none the less, significant. He said less than $1500 all inclusive. We would need to get some seed money to start. It would be tax deductible when we get our charitable status. I promise to find at least $300. Can others do something to put together the balance? If we can get all this done before year end. We can issue tax receipts for the coming tax return. James? Russell? Could we set something up on your respective websites to solicit money? It will have to be structured as a short term loan as you can't get charitable tax receipts for money donated before you have a charity. When we have a bonafide charity however, we can swap paper and issue tax receipts. Once we get a basic corporate and technological foundation in place, I'd say we also approach some of the more progressive publishers and other businesses in this field for donations. Hey, this might all become exciting, don't you think! cheers, darryl From traverso at dm.unipi.it Tue Nov 9 14:44:37 2004 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:44:37 +0100 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. In-Reply-To: (ag737@freenet.carleton.ca) References: Message-ID: <200411092244.iA9Mibwb017658@posso.dm.unipi.it> >>>>> "Wallace" == Wallace J McLean writes: Wallace> ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlo Traverso Wallace> Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 Wallace> 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. >> Does this have a technical motivation? (for example, avoid the >> complications of UTF-8 being life+50) Or just to have a >> companion to PG-CA? Wallace> A legal one: Stuff that would be eligible for a Wallace> PG-Canada, and hence likely to draw even more Canadian Wallace> volunteers, can't always legally be done through Wallace> DP-INT. There are thousands of PD works under life+50 in Wallace> Canada that won't be eligible under the PG/DP American Wallace> copyright rules. We could do them in an all-Canadian Wallace> site, but not the existing PG/DP site. Wallace> Or, we can funnel it all through DP-EU, assuming that Wallace> there are no further complications legally. Do they Wallace> operate under life+50, and if so where are they Wallace> depositing their texts? They operate in serbia, life+50, the repository for non-PG clearable texts will be the announced PG-Europa (serbia too), announced to start in short time (this week maybe...). We have a backlog of posting for all the texts that we have done under life+50 rules. I expect to mutually mirror between the two sites. >> The effort to bring up a DP site is non negligeable, much more >> than overcoming the utf-8 barier; DP-EU still has space to >> grow, and will surely welcome new forces. For example, our >> waiting lists are empty, anything that you want to post is >> welcome. When DP-EU has grown, and canadian squirrels matured, >> detaching a canadian clone might be much easier. Currently, a >> division of efforts might create problems to both. Wallace> And on the other hand, an all-Canadian, or an Wallace> international non- national life+50 version of DP might Wallace> help draw more volunteers out of the woodwork. one of the main focus of DP-EU is to allow non-western alphabets. These include currently cyrillic, east-european (polish, chech, romanian...) greek and arabic characters (urdu). Most work however is done in english,(150 books) french(80) and serbian(140 books in 8 months of operation). A special emphasis has been posed into having user interfaces, documentation and discussion forums in different languages (currently 13 languages). Some of the more affectionate users of DP-EU are canadian, both english and french speaking. Wallace> On the Project Gutenberg business itself, setting aside Wallace> the big and valuable and important work done by the DP Wallace> annex, a Canadian branch plant would allow the "Canadian Wallace> editions" of PG texts -- whether transferred from PG Wallace> where eligible, or created under life+ rules outside the Wallace> US -- to get (free) ISBNs for those editions. This may Wallace> have usefulness down the road, as has been discussed on Wallace> the DP forums. ISBN would be great. I strongly support PG-CA, just DP-CA is IMHO a little premature, until DP-EU is further grown. Carlo From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 14:50:56 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:50:56 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlo Traverso Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. > Some of the more affectionate users of DP-EU are canadian, both > english and french speaking. I'm occasionally one of them! (Have accounts at both DPs, with a much higher count at DP-Int and some PPing work as well.) > Wallace> On the Project Gutenberg business itself, setting aside > Wallace> the big and valuable and important work done by the DP > Wallace> annex, a Canadian branch plant would allow the "Canadian > Wallace> editions" of PG texts -- whether transferred from PG > Wallace> where eligible, or created under life+ rules outside the > Wallace> US -- to get (free) ISBNs for those editions. This may > Wallace> have usefulness down the road, as has been discussed on > Wallace> the DP forums. > > ISBN would be great. I strongly support PG-CA, just DP-CA is IMHO a > little premature, until DP-EU is further grown. Can DP-EU be "evolved" into DP-50? From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 14:53:55 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 17:53:55 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc. Message-ID: Also: How vulnerable is Serbia to the life+50+more movement? What happens if it joins the European Union, and how close is EU membership, if at all? From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Tue Nov 9 15:16:36 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:16:36 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... Message-ID: Hey list! Instead of doing to 4 line reply to each topic, I'm going to throw it all in on here. My apologies for being slow to reply. I'm currently on a working vacation in Utah, and only getting my email once or twice a day. I'm James Linden, currently the one trying to get PG Canada going. I have to say, it's great to see other people on the same side. :-) Regarding the website: Currently, the site is hosted by my own company, located in Barrie, ON. CompuSOLVE are the guys providing my 'net pipe, but they don't have anything to do with the site or the server it's on. I've not had a whole lot of time recently to do anything with the PG site, mostly because I've had to work like mad to make this 4 week trip possible around contracts, etc. Any ideas/help are great. I do have to point out that I'm opposed to using ANY of the main PG site. It's been hacked together over the course of a decade, and is only getting worse. Marcello has been doing a great job on the site, but has a long way to go. Regarding non profit: I have not been able to locate a lawyer, so that news is good news. I'll see what I can do about chipping in to cover the fees. Regarding backend: I'm very opposed to basing PG Canada on the current PG system, which does not meet even minimal requirements for cataloging and does not rely on a master XML document. If my ideas are too much for the PG Canada group that is coming together here, I'll step aside and not get in the way. I'd rather learn the appropriate lessons from PG's experiences, and do something better, which, I must point out, it not hard. I realize this information is not complete, and I'll get more thoughts together ASAP... :-) Good to see everyone here on the list!!!!!!! Regards, James Linden jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca From jivadas3 at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 9 19:17:54 2004 From: jivadas3 at yahoo.ca (jiva das) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:17:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc.: Comprends pas: Please explain. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041110031754.98114.qmail@web53202.mail.yahoo.com> "Wallace J.McLean" wrote:Also: How vulnerable is Serbia to the life+50+more movement? What happens if it joins the European Union, and how close is EU membership, if at all? _______________________________________________ Project Gutenberg of Canada Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ Search the heavens for ET!!! Free Screensaver: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbuchana at rogers.com Tue Nov 9 19:55:11 2004 From: gbuchana at rogers.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 22:55:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: <41910A1B.6020606@moores.ca> Message-ID: On 18:19:07 Darryl Moore wrote: > > > That would help. But the most helpful would be an endorsement by > prominent Canadian authors such as Pierre Button, Margaret Atwood, John > Ralston Saul and others. > It would probably be worthwhile to write to Saul and/or Clarkson. ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 20:16:59 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:16:59 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] Message-ID: On 18:19:07 Darryl Moore wrote: > > > That would help. But the most helpful would be an endorsement by > prominent Canadian authors such as Pierre Button, Margaret > Atwood, What's the point of this again? I seem to have missed the email that sparked this. If it's to get them to endorse something with a view towards protecting the public domain, and resisting the extension of copyright, forget it: Pierre Berton and Margaret Atwood are typical members of the CanLit gliterati: they don't mind pilfering the public domain, but God forbid their works should ever enter into it. Atwood is very clearly in favour of term extension; Pierre Berton seems to be tacitly so for reasons I don't wish to disclose in public. From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 20:19:49 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:19:49 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: James Linden Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 6:16 pm Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... > I do have to point out that I'm > opposed to using ANY of the main PG site. It's been hacked > together over the > course of a decade, and is only getting worse. Marcello has been > doing a great job on the site, but has a long way to go. I think we should build the "storage" facility from the ground up, too. > Regarding backend: I'm very opposed to basing PG Canada on the > current PG system, which does not meet even minimal requirements for > cataloging and does not rely on a master XML document. Can you elaborate on this point a little for the non-techies, myself included? From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Nov 9 20:32:12 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:32:12 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc.: Comprends pas: Please explain. Message-ID: Qu'est-ce que vous ne comprenez pas? Serbian copyright law is, right now, life+50, but are they under political pressure (internal or external) to "harmonize"? If they eventually join the EU, presumably they will be forced to "harmonize" to life+70, so how close are they to EU membership, realistically? In other words, would building a life+50 public domain "library" in Serbia, under Serbian law, be a sound location in the long term? Sounder or less sound than Canada? Or kinda like building on beachfront in Florida or the San Andreas fault? None of this is to undermine the incredible achievement at DP-EU; I wish my Cyrillic proofing skills were more up to scratch! [PGCanada] Introductions, etc.: Comprends pas: Please explain. jiva das jivadas3 at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 9 19:17:54 PST 2004 "Wallace J.McLean" wrote:Also: How vulnerable is Serbia to the life+50+more movement? What happens if it joins the European Union, and how close is EU membership, if at all? From sly at victoria.tc.ca Tue Nov 9 22:23:24 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:23:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, James Linden wrote: > Regarding backend: I'm very opposed to basing PG Canada on the current PG > system, which does not meet even minimal requirements for cataloging and > does not rely on a master XML document. This is the issue that draws my attention the most. Actually, I believe it's a brief summation of three areas: 1)cataloging information 2)file format 3)directory structure All of these are proposed by James to be done differently from what has been done at PG. This is a valid choice, however, it could be quite an uphill struggle to work out enough bugs to have them at a usable point. > If my ideas are too much for the PG Canada group that is coming together > here, I'll step aside and not get in the way. I'd rather learn the > appropriate lessons from PG's experiences, and do something better, which, I > must point out, it not hard. This is somewhere I am unsure where to draw the dividing line. At one extreme, we could just barge ahead and start posting whatever files people want to submit, working things out as we go. At the other extreme we could try to work out a detailed plan for how to deal with various exceptions that will come up in the areas mentioned above before going any further. The first option has the benefit of drawing in volunteers. PG's growth can be attributed to its historical openness to accepting files prepared in different ways. A drawback is that it leads to many inconsistencies in the files. The second option has the benefit of being very organized, which can end up making the collection easier to use, search, etc. The drawback is that working out the details, without basing them on an already working model, would be very time consuming. So is there some middle ground? Andrew From traverso at dm.unipi.it Tue Nov 9 22:29:58 2004 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:29:58 +0100 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc.: Comprends pas: Please explain. In-Reply-To: (ag737@freenet.carleton.ca) References: Message-ID: <200411100629.iAA6TwlW006850@posso.dm.unipi.it> >>>>> "Wallace" == Wallace J McLean writes: Wallace> Qu'est-ce que vous ne comprenez pas? Serbian copyright Wallace> law is, right now, life+50, but are they under political Wallace> pressure (internal or external) to "harmonize"? If they Wallace> eventually join the EU, presumably they will be forced to Wallace> "harmonize" to life+70, so how close are they to EU Wallace> membership, realistically? I think that Serbia joining EU will be in the far future. There are no discussions currently, next joining states will be Bulgaria and Romania in few years, Turkey is under discussion for within 14 years, former Yougoslavia states (except Slovenia, that is in EU now) and Albania will be even later, Serbia and Albania will be the last. Disscussions will not start before a Kosovo settlement and stabilization. 25 years may be a fair guess. Wallace> In other words, would building a life+50 public domain Wallace> "library" in Serbia, under Serbian law, be a sound Wallace> location in the long term? Sounder or less sound than Wallace> Canada? Or kinda like building on beachfront in Florida Wallace> or the San Andreas fault? I'd say as sound as Canada, at least for the near future. With the advantage that people are seriously working on that since more than one year. Should Serbia fall before Canada, moving everything to Canada should be possible. And the converse of course. Currently, DP-EU _IS_ DP+50. Some +50 books have been prepared, and the clearance rules officially allow life+50 (the procedures are not yet established, the site is just now at the end of the experimental phase and starting officially). The site even allows copyrighted books under the condition that owner of the copyright grants unrestricted redistribution. Carlo From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 03:54:02 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:54:02 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4192015A.2000309@moores.ca> That is a good idea. However before we can approach anybody, and even for filing our articles of incorporation, we need to get a few things written down on paper. Who we are. What we do. How our efforts should generally benefit society. etc... Would anybody like to take a stab at putting together a good blurb in about one page or so? Use the PG USA as a starting point, but I would suggest putting a little more emphasis on protecting and promoting the public domain. We in Canada actually have more fertile territory here, and it's worth protecting. Gardner Buchanan wrote: > On 18:19:07 Darryl Moore wrote: > >> >>That would help. But the most helpful would be an endorsement by >>prominent Canadian authors such as Pierre Button, Margaret Atwood, John >>Ralston Saul and others. >> > > > It would probably be worthwhile to write to Saul and/or Clarkson. > > > ============================================================ > Gardner Buchanan > Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 03:58:15 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:58:15 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41920257.7080106@moores.ca> The idea here is to help establish some legitimacy. So that if we get to court we aren't simply seen as a group who's mandate is to ruffle feathers. I think PG Canada in on pretty safe ground, but you can never have too much legitimacy. Remember, the most important battle we are going to have to fight is going to be in the heads of a citizenry who often believe corporations have eternal monopolies on this stuff. We're going to need all the legitimacy we can get! Wallace J.McLean wrote: > On 18:19:07 Darryl Moore wrote: > >> >>That would help. But the most helpful would be an endorsement by >>prominent Canadian authors such as Pierre Button, Margaret >>Atwood, > > > What's the point of this again? I seem to have missed the email that > sparked this. > > If it's to get them to endorse something with a view towards protecting > the public domain, and resisting the extension of copyright, forget it: > Pierre Berton and Margaret Atwood are typical members of the CanLit > gliterati: they don't mind pilfering the public domain, but God forbid > their works should ever enter into it. Atwood is very clearly in favour > of term extension; Pierre Berton seems to be tacitly so for reasons I > don't wish to disclose in public. > > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 04:03:06 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:03:06 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4192037A.1060809@moores.ca> I agree with everybody :-) However I also think it is important to get something up quickly. Is it possible to get some simple server going. Whether it be based on PG USA PG EU, Google, I don't think it matters. Something with very little work and quick. Then at the same time we can work on putting together the all singing, all dancing machine which will cook your breakfast in the morning as well. Let's continue to debate what the ideal final solution is, but at the same time lets start a new thread that discusses our options for a quick solution as too. Andrew Sly wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, James Linden wrote: > > >>Regarding backend: I'm very opposed to basing PG Canada on the current PG >>system, which does not meet even minimal requirements for cataloging and >>does not rely on a master XML document. > > > This is the issue that draws my attention the most. > Actually, I believe it's a brief summation of three areas: > 1)cataloging information > 2)file format > 3)directory structure > All of these are proposed by James to be done differently from > what has been done at PG. This is a valid choice, however, it > could be quite an uphill struggle to work out enough bugs > to have them at a usable point. > > > >>If my ideas are too much for the PG Canada group that is coming together >>here, I'll step aside and not get in the way. I'd rather learn the >>appropriate lessons from PG's experiences, and do something better, which, I >>must point out, it not hard. > > > This is somewhere I am unsure where to draw the dividing line. > At one extreme, we could just barge ahead and start posting > whatever files people want to submit, working things out as > we go. At the other extreme we could try to work out a > detailed plan for how to deal with various exceptions that > will come up in the areas mentioned above before going > any further. > > The first option has the benefit of drawing in volunteers. > PG's growth can be attributed to its historical openness > to accepting files prepared in different ways. A drawback > is that it leads to many inconsistencies in the files. > The second option has the benefit of being very organized, > which can end up making the collection easier to use, search, > etc. The drawback is that working out the details, without > basing them on an already working model, would be very > time consuming. > > So is there some middle ground? > > Andrew > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 04:17:13 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:17:13 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <419206C9.7030602@moores.ca> Hey James, I hope the new blood and bold enthusiasm from some of us will help motivate everybody. Do let me know if I get to bold. I do not ever intent to offend or step on toes. I gentle 2x4 across the back of the head should do. Some questions regarding your ISP. Given that copyright law is a very murky thing with a lot of gray ambiguities, it is probably more likely than not that we will get served with legal papers demanding we remove stuff from our server. Also given that we will have pre-investigated the legal status of any work we post and be confident of our fair interpretation of its status under copyright law. We will be very unlikely to remove any works. How comfortable will your ISP be in supporting this position? Can we be fairly confident that they will not feel intimidated into pulling our plug? I ask this because Russell McOrmond, who runs the discussion list at www.digital-copyright.ca suggested a different ISP. Do you think you and Russell could discuss and decide the best alternatives for us here? cheers, darryl James Linden wrote: > Hey list! > > Instead of doing to 4 line reply to each topic, I'm going to throw it all in > on here. My apologies for being slow to reply. I'm currently on a working > vacation in Utah, and only getting my email once or twice a day. > > I'm James Linden, currently the one trying to get PG Canada going. I have to > say, it's great to see other people on the same side. :-) > > Regarding the website: Currently, the site is hosted by my own company, > located in Barrie, ON. CompuSOLVE are the guys providing my 'net pipe, but > they don't have anything to do with the site or the server it's on. I've not > had a whole lot of time recently to do anything with the PG site, mostly > because I've had to work like mad to make this 4 week trip possible around > contracts, etc. Any ideas/help are great. I do have to point out that I'm > opposed to using ANY of the main PG site. It's been hacked together over the > course of a decade, and is only getting worse. Marcello has been doing a > great job on the site, but has a long way to go. > > Regarding non profit: I have not been able to locate a lawyer, so that news > is good news. I'll see what I can do about chipping in to cover the fees. > > Regarding backend: I'm very opposed to basing PG Canada on the current PG > system, which does not meet even minimal requirements for cataloging and > does not rely on a master XML document. > > If my ideas are too much for the PG Canada group that is coming together > here, I'll step aside and not get in the way. I'd rather learn the > appropriate lessons from PG's experiences, and do something better, which, I > must point out, it not hard. > > I realize this information is not complete, and I'll get more thoughts > together ASAP... :-) > > Good to see everyone here on the list!!!!!!! > > Regards, > James Linden > jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From sly at victoria.tc.ca Wed Nov 10 07:51:27 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:51:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: <41920257.7080106@moores.ca> References: <41920257.7080106@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > have too much legitimacy. Remember, the most important battle we are > going to have to fight is going to be in the heads of a citizenry who > often believe corporations have eternal monopolies on this stuff. That's a good point. When talking to others about digitising texts for PG, I've been told, "You should be careful; people can renew copyrights, you know", which sends me off on a rant about how copyright only lasts for a set, limited term... (at least until governments are pressured into passing legislation saying otherwise...) Andrew From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 08:12:52 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:12:52 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] In-Reply-To: References: <41920257.7080106@moores.ca> Message-ID: <41923E04.3050304@moores.ca> Andrew Sly wrote: > When talking to others about digitising texts for PG, > I've been told, "You should be careful; people can renew > copyrights, you know", which sends me off on a rant > about how copyright only lasts for a set, limited term... > > (at least until governments are pressured into passing > legislation saying otherwise...) > I have to be totally up front here. That is precisely why I am so interested in this project. I think the literature is great, and it will be great to see everybody reading classic texts on their Palm Pilots. I wish I had more time to do so myself. But my passion is protecting society's rights in copyright issues. [RANT] You always here the rhetoric from the monopolists that "Theft is Theft". Well I want to turn that back on them and make people understand that it is the media companies that are stealing from us. Not us from them. Their crime is much greater than any of the P2P pirating which is currently happening that they are so upset about. I am hoping that through this project we can elevate public awareness of this issue and the huge value of our cultural inheritance to such a height that nobody will let the MegaCorps steal any more of it. Don't even get me started on DRM. Or at least lets switch to http://list.digital-copyright.ca/mailman/listinfo/discuss if you do :-) [/RANT] cheers, darryl From hart at pglaf.org Wed Nov 10 08:18:28 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:18:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... In-Reply-To: <419206C9.7030602@moores.ca> References: <419206C9.7030602@moores.ca> Message-ID: Why not have more than one PGCanada site? Michael From hart at pglaf.org Wed Nov 10 08:20:51 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:20:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... In-Reply-To: <419206C9.7030602@moores.ca> References: <419206C9.7030602@moores.ca> Message-ID: PGUS has received perhaps a dozen threats of copyright lawsuits, but once they realized we had actually done our homework, they all just turned out to be people, even lawyers, blowing smoke. Michael From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Wed Nov 10 15:34:43 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:34:43 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux Message-ID: I received the following PM today at Distributed Proofreading: From: [A DISTRIBUTED PROOFREADING VOLUNTEER'S ALIAS] To: [DP ALIAS] Posted: 10 Nov 2004 18:34 Subject: Another call to arms Hello [DP ALIAS], You are Canadian, aren't you? I need someone for a rescue operation; the pay is lousy* and the risk is ... er ... for you to decide. As you know, the Mitchell estate threatened Project Gutenberg Australia (PGA) with legal action if they didn't remove their etext of Gone With The Wind, and although I do not know whether Col Choat (who effectively is PGA) removed that file, all links to it now say "Page not found", or something to that effect. Luckily, my prodigious googling skills (cough!) allowed me to trace a copy. Unfortunately, although I am allowed to download it under [MY NATIONAL] copyright law, that same law prohibits me to publish it. Could you perhaps download it? I am not asking you to publish it or anything (the Mitchell estate lawyers are a lot closer to Canada than to Australia), you could at least legally pass it on to someone who is allowed to publish it. Also, I believe Michael Hart and John Mark Ockerbloom (Online Books Pages) are interested in the whereabouts of any surviving copies of their etext. Anyway, you can find a non-Gutenberg copy of the text at http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/GoneWithTheWind/. Also, part of a copy of the Gutenberg version seems to sit in the Google cache: http://64.233.183.104/search ?q=cache:rgeeJ5-OkIUJ:gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200161.txt +%22gone+with+the+wind%22 +Plain+Vanilla+Electronic+Texts &hl=en. Truncated at some point, it is not very useful reading material, but perhaps it can be used to establish whether Globusz used the Gutenberg version. The search strings I used were: "gone with the wind" plain vanilla electronic texts and "Melanie and Pittypat had gone" I don't know if this is necessary; the Canadian volunteer who produced the text is known, and I would not be surprised if he still owned a copy, or even the original. In which case it could be rescanned and ran through DP Europe. Perhaps I am getting too worked up over nothing. I hope I am not inconveniencing you too much. Thanks, *) As in: non-existant. From dlainson at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 10 16:05:32 2004 From: dlainson at sympatico.ca (dlainson at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:05:32 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4192667C.23700.17C864E@localhost> I have two independantly produced copies of GWTW. My own for PG AU, which I blush to say I have no record of the edition used, although since it conformed to the life+50 law in CA and AU that may be a non- issue, and a 2nd copy from a Usenet group produced from: WARNER BOOKS EDITION Printed in the United States of America First Warner Books Printing: August, 1993 a paperback edition which the ebook producer included front and back cover scans and I see is available at Amazon, etc. Don > I received the following PM today at Distributed Proofreading: > > > From: [A DISTRIBUTED PROOFREADING VOLUNTEER'S ALIAS] > To: [DP ALIAS] > Posted: 10 Nov 2004 18:34 > Subject: Another call to arms > > Hello [DP ALIAS], > > You are Canadian, aren't you? I need someone for a rescue operation; > the pay is lousy* and the risk is ... er ... for you to decide. > > As you know, the Mitchell estate threatened Project Gutenberg > Australia (PGA) with legal action if they didn't remove their etext of > Gone With The Wind, and although I do not know whether Col Choat (who > effectively is PGA) removed that file, all links to it now say "Page > not found", or something to that effect. > > Luckily, my prodigious googling skills (cough!) allowed me to trace a > copy. Unfortunately, although I am allowed to download it under [MY > NATIONAL] copyright law, that same law prohibits me to publish it. > > Could you perhaps download it? I am not asking you to publish it or > anything (the Mitchell estate lawyers are a lot closer to Canada than > to Australia), you could at least legally pass it on to someone who is > allowed to publish it. Also, I believe Michael Hart and John Mark > Ockerbloom (Online Books Pages) are interested in the whereabouts of > any surviving copies of their etext. > > Anyway, you can find a non-Gutenberg copy of the text at > http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/GoneWithTheWind/. Also, part of a copy > of the Gutenberg version seems to sit in the Google cache: > http://64.233.183.104/search > ?q=cache:rgeeJ5-OkIUJ:gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200161.txt > +%22gone+with+the+wind%22 +Plain+Vanilla+Electronic+Texts &hl=en. > Truncated at some point, it is not very useful reading material, but > perhaps it can be used to establish whether Globusz used the Gutenberg > version. > > The search strings I used were: > > "gone with the wind" plain vanilla electronic texts > > and > > "Melanie and Pittypat had gone" > > I don't know if this is necessary; the Canadian volunteer who produced > the text is known, and I would not be surprised if he still owned a > copy, or even the original. In which case it could be rescanned and > ran through DP Europe. > > Perhaps I am getting too worked up over nothing. I hope I am not > inconveniencing you too much. > > Thanks, > > *) As in: non-existant. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ Don Lainson dlainson at sympatico.ca From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 17:58:34 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:58:34 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4192C74A.7060407@moores.ca> I have a copy already. I've also been told that Col Choat is away, and that the people minding the fort have taken it down until his return. I believe he is planning to get it back up upon his return. This is all just hearsay mind you. Yes, since GWTW is the catalyst which has gotten me interested in this project anyway, it will be one of the first works that I would like to see made prominently available on PG Canada. However I'd like us to get all our legal, technical, and organizational ducks lined up first. Before we declare PGC hunting season open. ;-) cheers, darryl Wallace J.McLean wrote: > I received the following PM today at Distributed Proofreading: > > > From: [A DISTRIBUTED PROOFREADING VOLUNTEER'S ALIAS] > To: [DP ALIAS] > Posted: 10 Nov 2004 18:34 > Subject: Another call to arms > > Hello [DP ALIAS], > > You are Canadian, aren't you? I need someone for a rescue operation; > the pay is lousy* and the risk is ... er ... for you to decide. > > As you know, the Mitchell estate threatened Project Gutenberg Australia > (PGA) with legal action if they didn't remove their etext of Gone With > The Wind, and although I do not know whether Col Choat (who effectively > is PGA) removed that file, all links to it now say "Page not found", or > something to that effect. > > Luckily, my prodigious googling skills (cough!) allowed me to trace a > copy. Unfortunately, although I am allowed to download it under [MY > NATIONAL] copyright law, that same law prohibits me to publish it. > > Could you perhaps download it? I am not asking you to publish it or > anything (the Mitchell estate lawyers are a lot closer to Canada than > to Australia), you could at least legally pass it on to someone who is > allowed to publish it. Also, I believe Michael Hart and John Mark > Ockerbloom (Online Books Pages) are interested in the whereabouts of > any surviving copies of their etext. > > Anyway, you can find a non-Gutenberg copy of the text at > http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/GoneWithTheWind/. Also, part of a copy of > the Gutenberg version seems to sit in the Google cache: > http://64.233.183.104/search > ?q=cache:rgeeJ5-OkIUJ:gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200161.txt > +%22gone+with+the+wind%22 > +Plain+Vanilla+Electronic+Texts > &hl=en. Truncated at some point, it is not very useful reading > material, but perhaps it can be used to establish whether Globusz used > the Gutenberg version. > > The search strings I used were: > > "gone with the wind" plain vanilla electronic texts > > and > > "Melanie and Pittypat had gone" > > I don't know if this is necessary; the Canadian volunteer who produced > the text is known, and I would not be surprised if he still owned a > copy, or even the original. In which case it could be rescanned and ran > through DP Europe. > > Perhaps I am getting too worked up over nothing. I hope I am not > inconveniencing you too much. > > Thanks, > > *) As in: non-existant. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Wed Nov 10 18:15:10 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:15:10 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux Message-ID: <1045ce101c42.101c421045ce@ncf.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: dlainson at sympatico.ca Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux > I have two independantly produced copies of GWTW. My own for PG AU, > which I blush to say I have no record of the edition used, although > since it conformed to the life+50 law in CA and AU that may be a > non-issue It would be an absolutely terrible, horrible, evil, nasty thing if people in life+50 (or less) countries, with access to servers physically located in those countries, were to post copies of a clearly- PD-in-life+50-countries file of GWTW to said servers. It would be an absolutely terrible, horrible, evil, nasty thing, although not nearly as terrible, horrible, evil, or nasty as what happened to EMI in the Danger Mouse "Grey Album" controversy: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22grey+album%22+copyright+% 22White+album%22&meta= Countries with life+50 rules -- this is from the web, and don't believe everything you read on the internets, George Bush will tell you -- include Albania, Algeria, Angola, Argentina, Armenia, Australia -- well, strike Australia -- Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belize, Bolivia, Benin, Brunei, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Egypt, El Salvador, Fiji, Ghana, Iceland, Indonesia, Iraq -- under the new copyright law that the US-led forces have given them -- Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, (South) Korea, Kuwait, the Kyrgyz Republic, Lebanon, Malawi, Malaysia, Moldova, Mongolia, Morocco, Namibia, Nepal, New Zealand, Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, Qatar, Russia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Serbia and Montenegro, Singapore, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Syria, Taiwan, Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Ukraine, the United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, and Zambia. Obviously some of these countries have better internet penetration than others. However, anyone wishing to host a public domain edition of GWTW might most likely find soulmates in Argentina, Bulgaria -- they must have computers, since they have computer viruses -- Canada, Chile, Iceland, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Serbia and Montenegro, Singapore, South Africa, Taiwan, Ukraine, and the various Caribbean countries on the list. Not advocatin'. Not suggestin'. Just informin'. As you were, troops. From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 18:29:26 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:29:26 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux In-Reply-To: <1045ce101c42.101c421045ce@ncf.ca> References: <1045ce101c42.101c421045ce@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <4192CE86.6010903@moores.ca> Wallace J.McLean wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dlainson at sympatico.ca > Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:05 pm > Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux > > >>I have two independantly produced copies of GWTW. My own for PG AU, >>which I blush to say I have no record of the edition used, although >>since it conformed to the life+50 law in CA and AU that may be a >>non-issue > > > > It would be an absolutely terrible, horrible, evil, nasty thing if > people in life+50 (or less) countries, with access to servers > physically located in those countries, were to post copies of a clearly- > PD-in-life+50-countries file of GWTW to said servers. > > It would be an absolutely terrible, horrible, evil, nasty thing, > although not nearly as terrible, horrible, evil, or nasty as what > happened to EMI in the Danger Mouse "Grey Album" controversy: > Surprisingly the legal advice I received yesterday said that (at least as far as Canadian courts are concerned) the physical location of the server makes absolutely no difference. The most important aspect of the issue is who the intended target audience is and what reasonable measures were taken to make this evident and to deny access to others. This is to my mind a fairly enlightened perspective, as it recognizes the omnipresent aspect of the Internet, and the computers that are its component parts. From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 18:33:02 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:33:02 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux In-Reply-To: <1045ce101c42.101c421045ce@ncf.ca> References: <1045ce101c42.101c421045ce@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <4192CF5E.6030309@moores.ca> Wallace J.McLean wrote: > It would be an absolutely terrible, horrible, evil, nasty thing, > although not nearly as terrible, horrible, evil, or nasty as what > happened to EMI in the Danger Mouse "Grey Album" controversy: > Thank you. I had forgotten about the Grey Album. I will at that one to my list of negative copyright side effects. From darryl at moores.ca Wed Nov 10 19:15:00 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:15:00 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news Message-ID: <4192D934.4050006@moores.ca> James, would it be possible to install a Wiki on your website so that many of the rest of us can start helping to create a few pages? Is this a good idea? I'd just like to keep some momentum going. In other news... Don Johnston who has been wonderful so far with the free legal advice has suggested we set up an informal organization (much like a church or scout group would) and create a bank account for it. Do we already have such a thing? We should put any money we are able to collect into it. Then when we incorporate we wind down this first entity. There is information for Federally incorporated non-profits here: http://strategis.gc.ca/epic/internet/incd-dgc.nsf/en/h_cs02147e.html for anybody who is interested. I was also contacted by someone at UOttawa faculty of law and the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic (www.cippic.ca). I told her all about Project Gutenberg, at least all that I could being an admitted newbie myself :-). I think I did a fairly good job explaining it all to her, and I pointed her to this list so hopefully she will be monitoring our activity. I am very hopeful we will get assistance from these sources as well. I received an email from Marcello who maintains the American PG site. There is about 28MB of data for the website there. I do not know what is the best option here and I know James has expressed a dislike for implementing the US code. Can we have a little more discussion on this and get something implemented? I'd really like to know more about what people think in this area. Anybody have any thoughts on what more we should do to keep this train moving along? Lastly... I know I am a newbie here so tell me if I am stepping on anybodys toes. I have significant enthusiasm for this project right now and I don't want my own momentum to wain. From what I've seen here I think there is a lot of enthusiasm from a great many people and I want to encourage that as well. I don't want anybody to feel pushed out, and I know if left on my own I'll just pick it all up and run with it until I burn out. So please tell me how I can help rather than just letting me take over. Thanks again, darryl From sly at victoria.tc.ca Wed Nov 10 23:46:55 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:46:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: <4192D934.4050006@moores.ca> References: <4192D934.4050006@moores.ca> Message-ID: Hi Darryl I love the tone of the quoted paragraph below. How can you tell we are stereotypical Canadians? We worry about "stepping on others' toes". I've been a fairly long-time volunteer contributor to PG (about 5 years) so if you have any questions regarding that organization feel free to ask. I feel that anything we can take from PG-US, which has already been proven, will only make the birthing of PG of Canada easier on us all. I must say that from the point of view of technical details about the texts themselves, James' preferance for xml as a master file does make me wonder somewhat. As we don't have another project (that I am aware of) to base our initial efforts in this format on, we will be working out the bugs on our own... Also, I believe the collection will grow much slower than if we were to use un-marked-up text files. However, the alluring vision of a collection of consistently marked-up texts is tempting. Perhaps I lack the prior experience to really know how long it will take to get to that point. James, convince me! :) On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > > Lastly... I know I am a newbie here so tell me if I am stepping on > anybodys toes. I have significant enthusiasm for this project right now > and I don't want my own momentum to wain. From what I've seen here I > think there is a lot of enthusiasm from a great many people and I want > to encourage that as well. I don't want anybody to feel pushed out, and > I know if left on my own I'll just pick it all up and run with it until > I burn out. So please tell me how I can help rather than just letting me > take over. From jon at noring.name Thu Nov 11 07:28:44 2004 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:28:44 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: References: <4192D934.4050006@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20821725671.20041111082844@noring.name> Andrew wrote: > I must say that from the point of view of technical details > about the texts themselves, James' preferance for xml as a > master file does make me wonder somewhat. As we don't have > another project (that I am aware of) to base our initial > efforts in this format on, we will be working out the bugs > on our own... Also, I believe the collection will grow much > slower than if we were to use un-marked-up text files. Why the rush? Initially it may grow slower, but it is much better to do it right from the start, including proper metadata collection and structuring. Notice the spinning wheels PG-MS (MS == Mother Ship) has in cleaning up (both text and metadata) its 10,000+ texts (especially the older pre-DP-era texts.) The well-known adage applies here: "If you don't have the time to do it right the first time, when are you ever going to have the time?" PG-MS has learned a lot over 30 years, especially in the realm of "what NOT to do" (such as ignoring source metadata and allowing the combining of several sources -- things which are BAD for several reasons -- PG should NOT be a publisher per se, but rather preserve the past and to make the texts useful in the present and future by accurate digitization.) (This "what NOT to do" reminds me of the Monty Python TV sketch: "How Not To Be Seen" ) Note that DP itself is seriously considering switching to an XML-based system, likely to be based on a selected subset of TEI or TEI-Lite. I know James will disagree, but PG-Canada should do likewise. So long as the subset chosen is well-defined and structurally/semantically-oriented (with its own defined RelaxNG Schema with its own namespace), so things can be kept under strict control, yet take advantage of all the tools and expertise out there in TEI-Land. I'm not sure how PGTEI fits into this equation, but it certainly merits study. Of course, working with DP is important. And it is important that trained librarians, such as Alev, play an important role in the design and collection of metadata/catalog-info. > However, the alluring vision of a collection of consistently > marked-up texts is tempting. Perhaps I lack the prior experience > to really know how long it will take to get to that point. Yes, it is tempting. And there's nothing wrong with going about things slow and methodically to debug things and to build a strong and robust system (such as DP-Canada?) to eventually speed things up. Here's what I see the process, which is different in some ways to how PG-MS now does it: 1) Select and find the texts (books, periodicals, etc.) which are relevant to PG-Canada's interests (it is important PG-Canada define what its focus will be.) 2) Copyright clear them. 3) Scan these texts, collect the metadata/catalog-info, and place the page scans online. (Optionally, OCR can be done on these scans, and the raw, uncorrected OCR text can be used to enable a "temporary" full-text-search capability of the collection of page scans.) 4) Start converting selected texts into XML, prioritizing them based on various criteria (to be determined.) Eventually this will be done via the next generation DP, but for the start do it manually (maybe run the text itself through the current DP to remove scanning errors, and then mark it up afterwards.) It is clear that PG-Canada may build a big library of page scans, while the production of XML texts from them will lag. That's not an issue since copyright clearing and scanning are themselves very important, and the intermediate product, page scans, are themselves useful for the interim. PG-Canada can work with Brewster Kahle and the Internet Archive on its "Million Book Project" (to scan one million books and place the scans online.) It might even be possible to acquire the scans from Brewster, in addition to supplying scans to Brewster. Note that Brewster is now focusing his book scanning efforts in, where else: CANADA ! Jon Noring From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Nov 11 07:45:54 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:45:54 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news Message-ID: <109d6610ca31.10ca31109d66@ncf.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Noring Date: Thursday, November 11, 2004 10:28 am Subject: Re: [PGCanada] James website and more news > 3) Scan these texts, collect the metadata/catalog-info, and place the > page scans online. (Optionally, OCR can be done on these scans, and > the raw, uncorrected OCR text can be used to enable a "temporary" > full-text-search capability of the collection of page scans.) This last -- use of the raw, uncorrected OCR output -- is what drives projects like canadiana.org, ourroots.ca, newspaperarchive.com, and the cold north wind/paperofrecord.com family of products. From jon at noring.name Thu Nov 11 08:47:09 2004 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:47:09 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: <109d6610ca31.10ca31109d66@ncf.ca> References: <109d6610ca31.10ca31109d66@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <73826431093.20041111094709@noring.name> Wallace wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: >> 3) Scan these texts, collect the metadata/catalog-info, and place the >> page scans online. (Optionally, OCR can be done on these scans, and >> the raw, uncorrected OCR text can be used to enable a "temporary" >> full-text-search capability of the collection of page scans.) > This last -- use of the raw, uncorrected OCR output -- is what drives > projects like canadiana.org, ourroots.ca, newspaperarchive.com, and the > cold north wind/paperofrecord.com family of products. Well, it shows PG-Canada can find partners in the long-term endeavor to convert the public domain works of Canadiana into high quality digital texts. Where PG-Canada should depart from PG-MotherShip is to work closely with other groups, not go it alone. PG-Canada can help bring all these other efforts together under one tent, to follow a single metadata standard, and to begin the process of conversion to digital texts. This long-term thinking of PG against the world needs to stop. I see PG-Canada organizing as a non-profit and building a strong Board of Trustees which includes representatives from other notable organizations and notable Canadians. This will increase the likelihood of both private and public (Canadian Government) funding, some of which can go to DP to help them develop the next generation, XML-based system. Jon From ningi at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 11 09:26:33 2004 From: ningi at bellsouth.net (naomi walker) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:26:33 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux References: <4192C74A.7060407@moores.ca> Message-ID: <001501c4c813$9733ba60$6501a8c0@naomiwalker> According to a recent article in my local paper in South Daytona Florida, the estate holders for Gone With The Wind, only have legal prosocution authority here in the United States, since the book falls under the life+75 rule governing copyright works. According to the news writter, the estate acted without authority by threatening the Australian PG group since it is understood by international copyright law to fall under public domain in Australia which has life+50 for copyritten works. Same applies to Canada's public domain publication of the book, life +50yrs. According to the article, it should be posted with a warning that the book is only under public domain in the Countries where the work meets life + 50, which means, my local PG group could be held libal in court if the work was offered for post and download without permission from the estate itself. Hope this helps to clarify a little. Perhaps a search for copyright and public domain copyright under the host nation would yield a free source for translation of the copyright laws. Here is the one for the United States. http://www.copyright.gov/ Naomi Walker enjoys reading the classics and PD books the volunteers have posted in good faith :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Moore" To: "Project Gutenberg of Canada" Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux > I have a copy already. I've also been told that Col Choat is away, and > that the people minding the fort have taken it down until his return. I > believe he is planning to get it back up upon his return. This is all > just hearsay mind you. > > Yes, since GWTW is the catalyst which has gotten me interested in this > project anyway, it will be one of the first works that I would like to > see made prominently available on PG Canada. However I'd like us to get > all our legal, technical, and organizational ducks lined up first. > Before we declare PGC hunting season open. ;-) > > cheers, > darryl > > > Wallace J.McLean wrote: > > > I received the following PM today at Distributed Proofreading: > > > > > > From: [A DISTRIBUTED PROOFREADING VOLUNTEER'S ALIAS] > > To: [DP ALIAS] > > Posted: 10 Nov 2004 18:34 > > Subject: Another call to arms > > > > Hello [DP ALIAS], > > > > You are Canadian, aren't you? I need someone for a rescue operation; > > the pay is lousy* and the risk is ... er ... for you to decide. > > > > As you know, the Mitchell estate threatened Project Gutenberg Australia > > (PGA) with legal action if they didn't remove their etext of Gone With > > The Wind, and although I do not know whether Col Choat (who effectively > > is PGA) removed that file, all links to it now say "Page not found", or > > something to that effect. > > > > Luckily, my prodigious googling skills (cough!) allowed me to trace a > > copy. Unfortunately, although I am allowed to download it under [MY > > NATIONAL] copyright law, that same law prohibits me to publish it. > > > > Could you perhaps download it? I am not asking you to publish it or > > anything (the Mitchell estate lawyers are a lot closer to Canada than > > to Australia), you could at least legally pass it on to someone who is > > allowed to publish it. Also, I believe Michael Hart and John Mark > > Ockerbloom (Online Books Pages) are interested in the whereabouts of > > any surviving copies of their etext. > > > > Anyway, you can find a non-Gutenberg copy of the text at > > http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/GoneWithTheWind/. Also, part of a copy of > > the Gutenberg version seems to sit in the Google cache: > > http://64.233.183.104/search > > ?q=cache:rgeeJ5-OkIUJ:gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200161.txt > > +%22gone+with+the+wind%22 > > +Plain+Vanilla+Electronic+Texts > > &hl=en. Truncated at some point, it is not very useful reading > > material, but perhaps it can be used to establish whether Globusz used > > the Gutenberg version. > > > > The search strings I used were: > > > > "gone with the wind" plain vanilla electronic texts > > > > and > > > > "Melanie and Pittypat had gone" > > > > I don't know if this is necessary; the Canadian volunteer who produced > > the text is known, and I would not be surprised if he still owned a > > copy, or even the original. In which case it could be rescanned and ran > > through DP Europe. > > > > Perhaps I am getting too worked up over nothing. I hope I am not > > inconveniencing you too much. > > > > Thanks, > > > > *) As in: non-existant. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Project Gutenberg of Canada > > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From hart at pglaf.org Thu Nov 11 09:45:47 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:45:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Gone With the Wind, redux In-Reply-To: <1045ce101c42.101c421045ce@ncf.ca> References: <1045ce101c42.101c421045ce@ncf.ca> Message-ID: Someone might want to check my math, I counted 74 below, incl. Australia. > > Countries with life+50 rules -- this is from the web, and don't believe > everything you read on the internets, George Bush will tell you -- > include Albania, Algeria, Angola, Argentina, Armenia, Australia -- > well, strike Australia -- Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, > Belarus, Belize, Bolivia, Benin, Brunei, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, > Burundi, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Egypt, El Salvador, > Fiji, Ghana, Iceland, Indonesia, Iraq -- under the new copyright law > that the US-led forces have given them -- Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, > Kenya, (South) Korea, Kuwait, the Kyrgyz Republic, Lebanon, Malawi, > Malaysia, Moldova, Mongolia, Morocco, Namibia, Nepal, New Zealand, > Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, > Qatar, Russia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Serbia and > Montenegro, Singapore, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Syria, Taiwan, > Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Ukraine, > the United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, and Zambia. mh From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Nov 11 10:33:02 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:33:02 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news Message-ID: <10d658113c64.113c6410d658@ncf.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Noring Date: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:47 am Subject: Re: [PGCanada] James website and more news > Well, it shows PG-Canada can find partners in the long-term endeavor > to convert the public domain works of Canadiana into high quality > digital texts. We're not likely to get partnership with Cold North Wind, who are in the business of selling content, although, who knows, they might donate some tech stuff if asked. PG/DP-int already have informal agreements with Canadiana.org and ourroots.ca. I've Project-Managed two Canadiana.org works onto the PG- int site already, with two more in my queue for post-processing. From jon at noring.name Thu Nov 11 11:05:38 2004 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:05:38 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: <10d658113c64.113c6410d658@ncf.ca> References: <10d658113c64.113c6410d658@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <173834739234.20041111120538@noring.name> Wallace wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: >> Well, it shows PG-Canada can find partners in the long-term endeavor >> to convert the public domain works of Canadiana into high quality >> digital texts. > We're not likely to get partnership with Cold North Wind, who are in > the business of selling content, although, who knows, they might donate > some tech stuff if asked. > > PG/DP-int already have informal agreements with Canadiana.org and > ourroots.ca. I've Project-Managed two Canadiana.org works onto the PG- > int site already, with two more in my queue for post-processing. Thanks for clarifying the current status of partnerships. I do encourage PG-Canada, once it is incorporated as a non-profit, to create a Board of Trustees which is diverse and includes outsiders from allied groups and stakeholders. The Board should, also, be more than just window-dressing -- it needs to be the ultimate authority in the global operation of the organization (the Executive Director will implement the Board's direction for day-to-day operations.) This is the way all successful non-profits work -- good governance and organization, and not closed to the outside world. It will greatly increase the chances of private and public funding to be properly governed and organized. Jon Noring From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Nov 11 11:29:34 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:29:34 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] GWTW Message-ID: <10ef531156c0.1156c010ef53@ncf.ca> To clarify as to why any GWTW reclamation project should use servers that are physically in life+50 countries... again it's a don't paint "sue me" on your ass situation. I am located in Canada, the actions I take on my keyboard and mouse are in Canada, but I guarantee that if I post the e-text of GWTW to my (US- located space) at Geocities, it won't last 24 hours there, and I'll probably lose everything else I've got posted as well. The notice-and-takedown threat still exists in life+50 countries (exhibit A: the current PG-AU kerfuffle), but going about it in an all- life+50 way reduces the risk and would give the Mitchell estate way too many expensive moles to whack. From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Thu Nov 11 12:54:14 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:54:14 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Making Digital Resources from Print Material Message-ID: Everyone: Instead of typing a lengthy email and saying a lot of things I've already said many times before, here's URLs for some of my eBook related thoughts. Making Digital Resources from Print Material http://new.kodekrash.com/article?prn2dig That article describes the "right way", as I see it, to go about doing the technical side of producing ebooks. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on it.... -- James PS: I'm still assembling my new personal site, so don't make too many links to new.kodekrash.com, because eventually, that site will be www.kodekrash.com, etc. :-) From brett at dimetrodon.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 11 17:47:27 2004 From: brett at dimetrodon.demon.co.uk (Brett Paul Dunbar) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:47:27 +0000 Subject: [PGCanada] Introductions, etc.: Comprends pas: Please explain. In-Reply-To: <200411100629.iAA6TwlW006850@posso.dm.unipi.it> References: <200411100629.iAA6TwlW006850@posso.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: <3BYV7r6vYBlBFwA3@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk> Carlo Traverso writes >>>>>> "Wallace" == Wallace J McLean writes: > > Wallace> Qu'est-ce que vous ne comprenez pas? Serbian copyright > Wallace> law is, right now, life+50, but are they under political > Wallace> pressure (internal or external) to "harmonize"? If they > Wallace> eventually join the EU, presumably they will be forced to > Wallace> "harmonize" to life+70, so how close are they to EU > Wallace> membership, realistically? > >I think that Serbia joining EU will be in the far future. There are no >discussions currently, next joining states will be Bulgaria and >Romania in few years, Turkey is under discussion for within 14 years, >former Yougoslavia states (except Slovenia, that is in EU now) and >Albania will be even later, Serbia and Albania will be the >last. Disscussions will not start before a Kosovo settlement and >stabilization. 25 years may be a fair guess. Accession for the western Balkan states is likely to be sooner than that. Croatia, already officially a candidate, possibly as soon as 2007 the rest, all still applicants, seem likely to get candidate status early next year and to join in the 2010-2015 period. Unlike with Turkey there is little opposition to the membership of the western Balkan states, so negotiations are likely to prove relatively straightforward, joining before Turkey is certainly possible. -- Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm Brett Paul Dunbar To email me, use reply-to address From gbuchana at rogers.com Thu Nov 11 18:55:04 2004 From: gbuchana at rogers.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:55:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andrew, Darryl, On 07:46:55 Andrew Sly wrote: > > I feel that anything we can take from PG-US, which has already > been proven, will only make the birthing of PG of Canada > easier on us all. > For my part, I think I'd rather emulate PG-Australia in a few ways. Col has adopted a simple and functional header and a mercifully abridged trailer that I would sooner borrow than PG-USA's I also feel that his directory structure is more practical, not to mention sane. Darryl indicated his preference for XML. While that sounds nice, I'd guess that he hasn't had any experience using Gutcheck on XML. I for one intend to continue to crank out plain text documents in the format PG-US and PG-AU commonly hold. I'd recommend that he has a go at marking up his first text - GWTW - into XML as a trial and see how that goes before committing to this path. All that said, I hafta say that I am grateful that Darryl has taken the initiative on this. Thank you. When the time comes I think my cheque book will also thank you/PG-CA. ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Nov 11 19:34:46 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:34:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the message Gardner. I think what this helps make apparant is that once you get five people gathered together, you will have at least six different opinions on any given topic. :) I've rather curious to see how our various ideas about the possibilities for PG of Canada will (hopefully) converge together. Andrew On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, Gardner Buchanan wrote: > For my part, I think I'd rather emulate PG-Australia in a few ways. > Col has adopted a simple and functional header and a mercifully > abridged trailer that I would sooner borrow than PG-USA's > I also feel that his directory structure is more practical, not > to mention sane. > > Darryl indicated his preference for XML. While that sounds nice, > I'd guess that he hasn't had any experience using Gutcheck on > XML. I for one intend to continue to crank out plain text documents > in the format PG-US and PG-AU commonly hold. I'd recommend that > he has a go at marking up his first text - GWTW - into XML as a > trial and see how that goes before committing to this path. > > All that said, I hafta say that I am grateful that Darryl has > taken the initiative on this. Thank you. When the time comes > I think my cheque book will also thank you/PG-CA. From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Thu Nov 11 18:07:41 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:07:41 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding header(s) and footer(s)... according to one lawyer I talked with, we'd only be legally required to put a short legal notice in each text, assumably, with a URL to the full license text, etc. I've always disliked the PG header/footer, so I'm all for keeping it short. As for the directory structure, I'm hoping to come up with a hybrid of PGAUS and PGUSA, to implement for PGCAN... more on that later though. For PGCAN, I'm personally setting my sights on a fully XML based system, and totally ignoring plain text except as an output format. It's the right way to do things. I don't care about the academic usage argument (one way or the other), but from a purely technical point, a unified XML based system is the obvious choice. Yes, it takes more work to setup, but it's really not any more work to USE once it's setup properly. -------------------------- So far, Michael has agreed with _every_single_ idea I've talked to him about, and based on that and his offer to let me get PGCAN rolling (IE: using trademark, etc), I've gone on the assumption that I was going the right direction. If I start becoming a hinderance to PGCAN or the group believes I'm going in the wrong direction, I'd like everyone to tell me. If this happens, I will disappear, for the good of the whole - no hard feelings to anyone. -- James -----Original Message----- From: pgcanada-bounces at lists.pglaf.org [mailto:pgcanada-bounces at lists.pglaf.org]On Behalf Of Gardner Buchanan Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:55 PM To: Project Gutenberg of Canada Subject: Re: [PGCanada] James website and more news Andrew, Darryl, On 07:46:55 Andrew Sly wrote: > > I feel that anything we can take from PG-US, which has already > been proven, will only make the birthing of PG of Canada > easier on us all. > For my part, I think I'd rather emulate PG-Australia in a few ways. Col has adopted a simple and functional header and a mercifully abridged trailer that I would sooner borrow than PG-USA's I also feel that his directory structure is more practical, not to mention sane. Darryl indicated his preference for XML. While that sounds nice, I'd guess that he hasn't had any experience using Gutcheck on XML. I for one intend to continue to crank out plain text documents in the format PG-US and PG-AU commonly hold. I'd recommend that he has a go at marking up his first text - GWTW - into XML as a trial and see how that goes before committing to this path. All that said, I hafta say that I am grateful that Darryl has taken the initiative on this. Thank you. When the time comes I think my cheque book will also thank you/PG-CA. ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. _______________________________________________ Project Gutenberg of Canada Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ From darryl at moores.ca Fri Nov 12 04:10:03 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:10:03 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] first steps Message-ID: <4194A81B.6060702@moores.ca> Hey all, It's really great to see all the activity here in the last 3 days. It's a stark contrast from what I see in the archive since April. I've only got a few minutes, and I want to speak on many of the points I've seen here, but I'll get to those on the week end. A number of people now have offered financial help to get this thing rolling. I think the next step is to get a bank account put together and a treasurer to mind it. Now I'm very new here and you should all be smart enough not to give your money to a total stranger, so I nominate James as treasurer. Is that OK with you James? Will someone second this motion? Once we get a reasonable fraction of the money together I'd like to set up a meeting with Don Johnston to start the ball rolling on our articles of incorporation. I'm hoping James, and anybody else in the Toronto area with interest in this dry legal stuff, will be able to participate as well. I'm hoping this can happen in the next week or two!! cheers, darryl From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Fri Nov 12 12:04:52 2004 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:04:52 -0800 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news References: <4192D934.4050006@moores.ca> <20821725671.20041111082844@noring.name> Message-ID: <41951764.9A62C3D0@ibiblio.org> Jon Noring wrote: > > Note that Brewster is now focusing his book scanning efforts > in, where else: CANADA ! I hadn't heard this. Do you have, or can you point to, more information? -Michael From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Fri Nov 12 13:43:27 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:43:27 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] CNIB/Maclean's Message-ID: <12f4f212c132.12c13212f4f2@ncf.ca> Maclean's current edition (thick one, with university rankings) has a blurb in it about the CNIB (Canadian National Institute for the Blind) and their efforts to digitize books for blind, visually impaired, and other disabled readers. The blurb, or at least part of it, is online at: http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/technology/article.jsp? content=20041115_92047_92047 I seem to recall, in doing research on AMICUS (the National Library catalogue), that a large number of the most recent editions of old works -- in some cases, the first new edition in 50 or 60 or more years -- is either a Project Gutenberg edition which has been accessioned and catalogued by a library, or an edition produced by the CNIB or a commercial company specializing in large-print/talking- book/braille editions. I'm not sure, but some large-print editions may even be "typeset" by PG. From jon at noring.name Fri Nov 12 14:29:01 2004 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:29:01 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: <41951764.9A62C3D0@ibiblio.org> References: <4192D934.4050006@moores.ca> <20821725671.20041111082844@noring.name> <41951764.9A62C3D0@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <134933342609.20041112152901@noring.name> Michael asked: > Jon Noring wrote: >> Note that Brewster is now focusing his book scanning efforts >> in, where else: CANADA ! > I hadn't heard this. Do you have, or can you point to, more information? There's a dearth of information online (based on my Google search -- maybe there's more and I missed it): http://docbug.com/Writings/npuc2004/ http://www.digital-copyright.ca/discuss/3794 When I last visited Brewster a couple months ago, he mentioned they are doing a scanning project in Canada (Toronto I think he said) which is an experiment with a robotic scanner (he said it costed him about $100,000). Apparently the India scanning project failed, for reasons that are unknown to me (although I speculate it had to do with quality control), so they're now studying robotics. I hope to find out more when James and I visit Brewster next Friday. Jon From ningi at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 16 19:36:44 2004 From: ningi at bellsouth.net (naomi walker) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:36:44 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada] References: <4190E32C.8030707@moores.ca><4190E6E5.1060507@moores.ca> <4190E8B3.3010300@moores.ca> Message-ID: <000901c4cc56$a8b674c0$6501a8c0@naomiwalker> Not sure who this could help, but found this while surfing for grants. http://www.fedgrants.gov/Applicants/NEH/OPUB/OPO/NEH-GRANTS-111604-008/Grant.html Supposedly the deadline for this year has already passed, but who knows, maybe this could help PG Canada if there was one listed with thier version of www.fedgrants.gov. Naomi From russell at flora.ca Fri Nov 19 08:29:11 2004 From: russell at flora.ca (Russell McOrmond) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:29:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] A bit of everything.... In-Reply-To: <419206C9.7030602@moores.ca> References: <419206C9.7030602@moores.ca> Message-ID: Sorry I am behind... On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > I ask this because Russell McOrmond, who runs the discussion list at > www.digital-copyright.ca suggested a different ISP. Do you think you and > Russell could discuss and decide the best alternatives for us here? I have to be careful here as the ISP I suggested was my own. I don't want to be seen as doing self-promotion or anything. We are multi-homed so not as vulnerable to a single ISP shutting things down, but appear to otherwise be in the same situation as the current host (separate company). -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/code-is-law.html From russell at flora.ca Fri Nov 19 09:23:01 2004 From: russell at flora.ca (Russell McOrmond) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:23:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: <10d658113c64.113c6410d658@ncf.ca> References: <10d658113c64.113c6410d658@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > We're not likely to get partnership with Cold North Wind, who are in > the business of selling content, although, who knows, they might donate > some tech stuff if asked. We shouldn't always be assuming that traditional creators and smaller publishers will never "see the light" and want to join us. As a creator myself I believe in a strong and growing public domain, and find that once they spend adequate time to think about it most other creators do as well. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/code-is-law.html From hart at pglaf.org Sun Nov 21 08:27:50 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: References: <10d658113c64.113c6410d658@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, Russell McOrmond wrote: > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > >> We're not likely to get partnership with Cold North Wind, who are in >> the business of selling content, although, who knows, they might donate >> some tech stuff if asked. > > We shouldn't always be assuming that traditional creators and smaller > publishers will never "see the light" and want to join us. As a creator > myself I believe in a strong and growing public domain, and find that once > they spend adequate time to think about it most other creators do as well. You also never know what they might do to get addition publicity. . . . mh From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Sun Nov 21 11:14:24 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:14:24 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news Message-ID: <1f9a8e1f6e8b.1f6e8b1f9a8e@ncf.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Hart Date: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:27 am Subject: Re: [PGCanada] James website and more news > > We shouldn't always be assuming that traditional creators and > smaller> publishers will never "see the light" and want to join > us. As a creator > > myself I believe in a strong and growing public domain, and find > that once > > they spend adequate time to think about it most other creators > do as well. > > You also never know what they might do to get addition publicity. > . . . Providing us with the content that charging-for-access is one of their main business lines, is not likely to be one of them. From hart at pglaf.org Mon Nov 22 12:26:33 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:26:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] James website and more news In-Reply-To: <1f9a8e1f6e8b.1f6e8b1f9a8e@ncf.ca> References: <1f9a8e1f6e8b.1f6e8b1f9a8e@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Hart > Date: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:27 am > Subject: Re: [PGCanada] James website and more news > >>> We shouldn't always be assuming that traditional creators and >> smaller> publishers will never "see the light" and want to join >> us. As a creator >>> myself I believe in a strong and growing public domain, and find >> that once >>> they spend adequate time to think about it most other creators >> do as well. >> >> You also never know what they might do to get addition publicity. >> . . . > > > Providing us with the content that charging-for-access is one of their > main business lines, is not likely to be one of them. I have a sign over my desk that relates to how I have gotten support for Project Gutenberg all these years. . . . "You Never Know What You Might Get, Unless You Ask For It!" Michael S. Hart, Founder Project Gutenberg From darryl at moores.ca Thu Nov 25 04:16:33 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:16:33 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gutenberg site Message-ID: <41A5CD21.7070202@moores.ca> Hi James, I've had a really busy week, but I want to get back to doing what I can for PG Canada. It seems to me, that you have done some work already on the web site, you and Russell both have ISPs that can host it, and I and others in the forum have time we are willing to donate, so there is no technical reason we cannot move forward. Additionally, I have found a lawyer who will give us a deal on setting up a federal not-for-profit corp. Such an organization will provide a degree of legitimacy that just might help when Parliament gets around to discussing extending terms of copyright (which they will inevitably do!). I think we need to work on both of these in tandem. Can we start by copying the US or Australian site with some minor modifications for Canada and Canadian copyright laws? This I think, would get a working site up within weeks. I'm willing to do as much of the technical work to this end as I am capable. Then we can start looking at XML versions of the material for a new site. From what I've seen there is still a lot of discussion required for this to proceed. Also we need to talk about corporate plans and registration documents. Is there a Wiki we can use some place where we can start drafting these documents? A Wiki would be great because then everybody here can participate easily. Russell has one. Russell could we use a small corner for PG Canada? James, I asked before if you could act as a treasurer of sorts and collect/record/track some of the money we will need to set up this corporate entity. Can you do that? I'd start doing it all myself now except that I don't really think I can set up another site and start calling PG Canada without somebody's permission. Whos? And I don't have a server. I will however look into doing some draft corporate registration documentation, then when we get a Wiki up I'll share them. cheers, darryl From hart at pglaf.org Thu Nov 25 07:58:43 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:58:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <41A5CD21.7070202@moores.ca> References: <41A5CD21.7070202@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > > Additionally, I have found a lawyer who will give us a deal on setting up a > federal not-for-profit corp. Such an organization will provide a degree of > legitimacy that just might help when Parliament gets around to discussing > extending terms of copyright (which they will inevitably do!). Speaking of lawyers, I would suggest that you keep trying to find some that will donate their work completely pro bono, as they should get plenty of PR just from telling people the are working with Project Gutenberg. Not that it's necessary before you get started, but in the long run, this is by far the best way. . .don't ever get used to paying bills, take my word for it! ;-) Michael From darryl at moores.ca Thu Nov 25 08:15:08 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:15:08 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: References: <41A5CD21.7070202@moores.ca> Message-ID: <41A6050C.5000308@moores.ca> Thanks Michael. In fact the lawyer I found has offered to do all his work pro bono. Most of the cost he quoted are filing fees. Federal corporate registration, name searches, charity status application etc... There are also some law students in Ottawa who have offered to help. Last week I told all the I've learned about PG and the unique challenges that I think PG Canada will be facing. I am hoping to hear back from them soon regarding in what capacity they feel they will be able to help. cheers, darryl Michael Hart wrote: > > > Speaking of lawyers, I would suggest that you keep trying to find some that > will donate their work completely pro bono, as they should get plenty of PR > just from telling people the are working with Project Gutenberg. > > Not that it's necessary before you get started, but in the long run, > this is by far the best way. . .don't ever get used to paying bills, > take my word for it! > > ;-) > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From hart at pglaf.org Thu Nov 25 08:40:56 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:40:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <41A6050C.5000308@moores.ca> References: <41A5CD21.7070202@moores.ca> <41A6050C.5000308@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > Thanks Michael. In fact the lawyer I found has offered to do all his work pro > bono. Most of the cost he quoted are filing fees. Federal corporate > registration, name searches, charity status application etc... Ah. . .good. . .sorry I misunderstood. . .that's exactly what we are doing. > There are also some law students in Ottawa who have offered to help. Last > week I told all the I've learned about PG and the unique challenges that I > think PG Canada will be facing. I am hoping to hear back from them soon > regarding in what capacity they feel they will be able to help. We have also had several heads of university law libraries help us a LOT! Thanks! Michael From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Thu Nov 25 11:59:20 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:20 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <41A5CD21.7070202@moores.ca> References: <41A5CD21.7070202@moores.ca> Message-ID: <41A63998.2040102@projectgutenberg.ca> > Can we start by copying the US or Australian site with some minor > modifications for Canada and Canadian copyright laws? This I think, > would get a working site up within weeks. I'm willing to do as much of > the technical work to this end as I am capable. Copying the existing sites from PG-USA or PG-AUS is a poor way to get a website up. Their sites are static and hell to maintain. I personally have no intention of building yet another headache. If we can wait a few days, I'll be back home and we can get something better going. > James, I asked before if you could act as a treasurer of sorts and > collect/record/track some of the money we will need to set up this > corporate entity. Can you do that? Yes, I can do that. -- James From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Nov 25 12:06:26 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:06:26 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site Message-ID: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: James Linden Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:59 pm Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site > Copying the existing sites from PG-USA or PG-AUS is a poor way to > get a > website up. Their sites are static and hell to maintain. I > personally > have no intention of building yet another headache. If we can wait > a few > days, I'll be back home and we can get something better going. Don't know about the site structure itself, but there are certainly a good many PG-US and PG-Aus titles which will qualify for inclusion in a PG-Can site; and many of them, at least on PG-US, are actually CanCon. So whatever the structure, I do hope we'll pilfer the content for all it's worth! ;) From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Thu Nov 25 12:09:47 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:09:47 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> References: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <41A63C0B.4090407@projectgutenberg.ca> Wallace J.McLean wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Linden > Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:59 pm > Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site > > >>Copying the existing sites from PG-USA or PG-AUS is a poor way to >>get a >>website up. Their sites are static and hell to maintain. I >>personally >>have no intention of building yet another headache. If we can wait >>a few >>days, I'll be back home and we can get something better going. > > > Don't know about the site structure itself, but there are certainly a > good many PG-US and PG-Aus titles which will qualify for inclusion in a > PG-Can site; and many of them, at least on PG-US, are actually CanCon. > > So whatever the structure, I do hope we'll pilfer the content for all > it's worth! ;) The etexts are not part of the site itself... we can certainly pilfer them. :-) -- James From darryl at moores.ca Thu Nov 25 12:19:02 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:19:02 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <41A63C0B.4090407@projectgutenberg.ca> References: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> <41A63C0B.4090407@projectgutenberg.ca> Message-ID: <41A63E36.5080203@moores.ca> I'm happy with whatever other want as long as we can get something in place. I'll do all I am capable of to keep it moving. That is really the only reason I suggest what I do. My background not being web development, I don't feel I can competently build a site up from the ground; but I probably can copy someone elses and change it. I'll defer to you James. How long will you be back in this neighbourhood for? cheers, darryl FYI: I'm in Aurora, so if you need local help with servers and such (what I'm capable of any way) I can come up there. James Linden wrote: > Wallace J.McLean wrote: > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James Linden >> Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:59 pm >> Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site >> >> >>> Copying the existing sites from PG-USA or PG-AUS is a poor way to get >>> a website up. Their sites are static and hell to maintain. I >>> personally have no intention of building yet another headache. If we >>> can wait a few days, I'll be back home and we can get something >>> better going. >> >> >> >> Don't know about the site structure itself, but there are certainly a >> good many PG-US and PG-Aus titles which will qualify for inclusion in >> a PG-Can site; and many of them, at least on PG-US, are actually CanCon. >> >> So whatever the structure, I do hope we'll pilfer the content for all >> it's worth! ;) > > > The etexts are not part of the site itself... we can certainly pilfer > them. :-) > > -- James > _______________________________________________ > Project Gutenberg of Canada > Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ > List: pgcanada at lists.pglaf.org > Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/ > From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Thu Nov 25 12:52:42 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:52:42 -0700 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <41A63E36.5080203@moores.ca> References: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> <41A63C0B.4090407@projectgutenberg.ca> <41A63E36.5080203@moores.ca> Message-ID: <41A6461A.7090900@projectgutenberg.ca> > I'll defer to you James. How long will you be back in this neighbourhood > for? A long time hopefully... I'm getting married up there. :-) > FYI: I'm in Aurora, so if you need local help with servers and such > (what I'm capable of any way) I can come up there. We'll have to get together sometime then. -- James From hart at pglaf.org Thu Nov 25 15:32:22 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:32:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> References: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Linden > Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 2:59 pm > Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site > >> Copying the existing sites from PG-USA or PG-AUS is a poor way to >> get a >> website up. Their sites are static and hell to maintain. I >> personally >> have no intention of building yet another headache. If we can wait >> a few >> days, I'll be back home and we can get something better going. > > Don't know about the site structure itself, but there are certainly a > good many PG-US and PG-Aus titles which will qualify for inclusion in a > PG-Can site; and many of them, at least on PG-US, are actually CanCon. > > So whatever the structure, I do hope we'll pilfer the content for all > it's worth! ;) Setting up a system for the exchange of "life +50" eBooks should go a long way to helping gather content for all it's worth. . . . We have already purchased the domain name pgcc50.net for this purpose, and any of you are welcome to it. PGCC = Project Gutenberg Consortia Center or Project Gutenberg Copyright Center Clearinghouse. . .or whatever you decide. Again. . .my HUGE thanks!!!!!!! Michael From hart at pglaf.org Thu Nov 25 15:41:04 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:41:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French Message-ID: Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in French? If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers who actually live in France [and other French speaking countries]? -(;-) From darryl at moores.ca Thu Nov 25 18:34:47 2004 From: darryl at moores.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:34:47 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41A69647.2050203@moores.ca> Michael Hart wrote: > > Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in French? > Oh yea! I'm sorry to say I hadn't got around to thinking about this, but being Project Gutenberg CANADA it would almost be inappropriate not too. Additionally I don't think we should necessarily draw the line at either french or english. Any eligible book in any language should be available. My suggestion would be to set the site up with french, english, and 'other' sections. > If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers who > actually live in France [and other French speaking countries]? > I'd love too. I have to admit up front that I don't speak a word of french. However if there are french volunteers who speak english, others who might be willing to act as intermediaries, or persons willing to communicate through language mangling online text translators, I'm all for it. cheers, darryl From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Nov 25 18:35:28 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:35:28 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French Message-ID: <7980c803bd.803bd7980c@ncf.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Hart Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:41 pm Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French > > Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in French? > > If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers who > actually live in France [and other French speaking countries]? There's an outfit in Quebec that produces e-texts of public domain works, who I'd like to get involved once we're up and running. As for myself, I have PGDPed in French on a regular basis, and have Snatched content from Canadiana.org for use as future PGDP projects. I think once PG Canada is up and running, a lot of the volunteer interest may come from francophone regions of the country, esp. Quebec. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Nov 25 22:15:34 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:15:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Re: Gutenberg site In-Reply-To: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> References: <7175675b67.75b6771756@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > Don't know about the site structure itself, but there are certainly a > good many PG-US and PG-Aus titles which will qualify for inclusion in a > PG-Can site; and many of them, at least on PG-US, are actually CanCon. > Assuming that newcomers have not seen me mention it before, please take a look at the list of Canadiana in PG I've compiled: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~sly/cancon.htm and please let me know of any more titles that would be appropriate to add. Spreading word to the DP Team Canada about it might be nice too. Andrew From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Nov 25 22:55:40 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:55:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Michael Hart wrote: > > Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in French? > > If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers who > actually live in France [and other French speaking countries]? > One volunteer (Renald Levesque) has been contributing many texts in French to PG, including Canadian ones, using pages scans from the Bibliothque Nationale du Quebec. I would imagine he is mostly responsible for the greatly increasing amount of French texts in PG. (For a long while, it seemed as though French and German representation in PG were staying quite consistantly close to each other in numbers, but now French has pulled ahead with 410 items in the catalog, while we have 315 in German.) Also worth adding is that I have been in touch with the person who runs the "Bibliotheque virtuelle", which has some French Canadian texts digitized in rtf files. (http://www.fsj.ualberta.ca/biblio/default.htm) He has said PG is welcome to reformat any texts from there. I have copyright cleared a handful of them, and done the comparison needed at the library, but have stalled on actually getting the files ready for posting. Andrew From hart at pglaf.org Fri Nov 26 09:29:45 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:29:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Andrew Sly wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Michael Hart wrote: > >> >> Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in French? >> >> If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers who >> actually live in France [and other French speaking countries]? > One volunteer (Renald Levesque) has been contributing many > texts in French to PG, including Canadian ones, using pages > scans from the Bibliothque Nationale du Quebec. I would imagine > he is mostly responsible for the greatly increasing amount of > French texts in PG. (For a long while, it seemed as though > French and German representation in PG were staying quite > consistantly close to each other in numbers, but now French > has pulled ahead with 410 items in the catalog, while we > have 315 in German.) Brett's language program just reported this hour only: French(404) German(303) I'm wondering if it is either a few days behind in the way it is counting, or if it is just missing a few? > Also worth adding is that I have been in touch with the person who > runs the "Bibliotheque virtuelle", which has some French Canadian > texts digitized in rtf files. > (http://www.fsj.ualberta.ca/biblio/default.htm) > He has said PG is welcome to reformat any texts from there. > I have copyright cleared a handful of them, and done the > comparison needed at the library, but have stalled on actually > getting the files ready for posting. If you can send me an email address for the two people mentioned above, I will see what I can do to provide more assistance, and for your own efforts, as well. I also have contacts in France who might help, and in other locations. > > Andrew > Michael From hart at pglaf.org Fri Nov 26 09:40:38 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:40:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French In-Reply-To: <41A69647.2050203@moores.ca> References: <41A69647.2050203@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote: > > > Michael Hart wrote: > >> >> Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in French? >> > > Oh yea! I'm sorry to say I hadn't got around to thinking about this, but > being Project Gutenberg CANADA it would almost be inappropriate not too. > > Additionally I don't think we should necessarily draw the line at either > french or english. Any eligible book in any language should be available. My > suggestion would be to set the site up with french, english, and 'other' > sections. My apologies, I didn't mean to ignore all the other languages, but rather just to focus a little extra attention on French, and the possibilities of doing some eBooks with the people I met in France during my speaking tour there last February. For the record, I was born far enough north in the US that my best friend moved to Canada permanently, and I went to live with his family for a time. . .not that the US and Canada were all that different way out West at the time. . . . >> If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers who >> actually live in France [and other French speaking countries]? >> > > I'd love too. I have to admit up front that I don't speak a word of french. > However if there are french volunteers who speak english, others who might be > willing to act as intermediaries, or persons willing to communicate through > language mangling online text translators, I'm all for it. I think the formation of French Teams in all areas of PG Canada activities would be worthwhile. Obviously nearly anything that is public domain in France should be PD in Canada, but there might be a greater need for some experts for the French when getting eBooks from you. michael From hart at pglaf.org Fri Nov 26 10:19:07 2004 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:19:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] Bad WIPO News Message-ID: "In an October 15 speech, the Director of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO), Jonathan Dudas, vowed that the U.S. government will `fight' proposals that aim to `fundamentally change the WIPO charter and philosophy' away from its current focus on the promotion of intellectual property." From darryl at mfe.ca Sun Nov 28 07:53:34 2004 From: darryl at mfe.ca (Darryl Moore) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:53:34 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Re: [d@DCC] Mr. James Rajotte and Hon. Liza Frulla speak in support of WIPO treaty ratification... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41A9F47E.2000507@mfe.ca> Russell McOrmond wrote: > http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/view/584 > >>From the Hansard for Friday, November 26, 2004. Obviously letters from > constituents and other Canadians are needed to inform these members that > what the recording industry is asking for will not help Canadian > musicians, but harm them. > ---cut--- > > Hon. Liza Frulla (Minister of Canadian Heritage and Minister responsible > for Status of Women, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have also met with members of > the music industry. The whole copyright issue is indeed a critical one. We > are currently drafting a copyright bill with the Minister of Industry. We > intend to submit it to cabinet before Christmas, so that it can be > referred to a committee during the next session. > I'm am drafting bylaws and articles of incorporation now for Project Gutenberg. James Linden will be back this week and hopefully we can get the infrastructure up quickly. My hope and short term goal is that if we can have an established charitable corporation who's mandate is to protect public access to intellectual works, we will be more likely to be called as a witness before any such committee and our concerns will be taken more seriously. We will also be more likely to get media exposure. Question will be of course, how long will it take to get charitable status? I will try to get these documents up on a wiki somewhere this week so that others can offer suggestions as well. The corporation will have need of directors. I am hoping James and Wallace will both offer their services in this capacity. I have yet to ask. If anybody else is interested please let me know. From jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca Sun Nov 28 08:40:59 2004 From: jlinden at projectgutenberg.ca (James Linden) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:40:59 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] Non Profit, etc In-Reply-To: <41A9F47E.2000507@mfe.ca> References: <41A9F47E.2000507@mfe.ca> Message-ID: <41A9FF9B.10109@projectgutenberg.ca> >> Darryl Moore wrote: > I'm am drafting bylaws and articles of incorporation now for Project > Gutenberg. James Linden will be back this week and hopefully we can get > the infrastructure up quickly. I'm back. :-) > The corporation will have need of directors. I am hoping James and > Wallace will both offer their services in this capacity. I have yet to > ask. If anybody else is interested please let me know. My wife has offered as well. I'm hoping Andrew Sly will participate on the board, as he is one of the original Canadian PGers. :-) -- James From traverso at dm.unipi.it Mon Nov 29 13:28:33 2004 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:28:33 +0100 Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French In-Reply-To: (message from Michael Hart on Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:41:04 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <200411292128.iATLSXhC025092@posso.dm.unipi.it> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Hart writes: Michael> Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in Michael> French? Michael> If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers Michael> who actually live in France [and other French speaking Michael> countries]? We had a meeting in Paris last saturday, exactly on this issue, to arrive at a coordination of all francophone PG-like projects. The outcome might be a site in french, located in Canada, and a close coordination of PG/DP activities in french with http://www.ebooksgratuits.com/ ; PG clearance procedures are currently the main obstacle to having more french books in PG, with clearance tailored on Life+50 we could reach 1000 in a short time. Look also at DP-EU french forum, further news soon, http://dp.rastko.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=65 Carlo From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Mon Nov 29 13:54:04 2004 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:54:04 -0500 Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlo Traverso Date: Monday, November 29, 2004 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [PGCanada] eBooks in French > >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Hart writes: > > Michael> Will there be a particular interest in doing eBooks in > Michael> French? > > Michael> If so, would you be willing to cooperate with volunteers > Michael> who actually live in France [and other French speaking > Michael> countries]? > > > We had a meeting in Paris last saturday, exactly on this issue, to > arrive at a coordination of all francophone PG-like projects. The > outcome might be a site in french, located in Canada, and a close > coordination of PG/DP activities in french with > http://www.ebooksgratuits.com/ ; PG clearance procedures are > currently the main obstacle to having more french books in PG, with > clearance tailored on Life+50 we could reach 1000 in a short time. There are several non-DP, non-PG efforts in Canada: http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/zone30/Classiques_des_sciences_sociales/ http://jydupuis.apinc.org/ http://www.bnquebec.ca/numtextes/accueil.htm The first might be amenable to co-operation and co-ordination. The second, from my dealings with him, wouldn't be. Someone else may have better luck in opening a dialogue. The third, through R?nald L?vesque and other DP volunters, has already contributed some works to DP/PG by providing scans that were stored at the BNQ as PDF files. I was actually going to start work on this title before I noticed R?nald had beaten me to the punch: http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/4/0/3/14030/14030-h/14030-h.htm Life+50 does open up a good number of works, but the PG/US rules, with everything pre-1923 up for grabs, also open up the use of what must be at least several hundred, if not thousand, Canadian books in French alone; that's not even considering other francophone countries (most of which are life+70); or non-monographs, esp. magazines and other serials. I find the main problem for a lot of European imprints and the existing DP site is the infuriating lack of a publication date anywhere in the front or end matter. I would have picked up a lot of books in LOTE, including French, at recent sales; as it was I had to restrict myself to material that was either dated, or very very clearly pre-1923. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Mon Nov 29 16:10:08 2004 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:10:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PGCanada] eBooks in French In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > > There are several non-DP, non-PG efforts in Canada: > > http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/zone30/Classiques_des_sciences_sociales/ > http://jydupuis.apinc.org/ > http://www.bnquebec.ca/numtextes/accueil.htm > I would also add: http://www.fsj.ualberta.ca/biblio/default.htm Comparatively, it's a small collection, but the owner has told me he is willing to share his texts. (One has already been added to PG, and I have clearance for a few more) > The first might be amenable to co-operation and co-ordination. > > The second, from my dealings with him, wouldn't be. Someone else may > have better luck in opening a dialogue. Once, when I already had a text done through DP (of poetry by William Henry Drummond) he shared his version of the text with me, so I could do a comparison to help find errors. I did get the impression though, that he would not regularly open up his copy-protected PDF files for anyone else. > The third, through R?nald L?vesque and other DP volunters, has already > contributed some works to DP/PG by providing scans that were stored at > the BNQ as PDF files.