October 2004 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

re: Re: [gutvol-d] I'm sorry but I don't get it...
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

joshua said: > I wanted to add my personal holy grail that > hopefully a TEI-Lite master format will help bring about... > A single master document. i've detailed this on another reply i am writing, which is still in progress, but i'll headline it here: a methodology of a "master document" is worthwhile, but there's no reason that master _must_ be in t.e.i. any form of markup that captures all the information that's deemed necessary can serve capably as a master. > A master document format that is auto-converted to the others > (at an acceptable level) would be wonderful and, imo, > worth a little extra up front effort to prepare it. well, yes, it would be wonderful. and worth the effort. and if it didn't take much extra effort, but instead was intuitive even to untrained volunteers, that would be _really_ special... > If someone could get a working bit of code in place, > I'd be happy to start testing it like crazy and > work on old texts to get it converted to that format. i've already got a "bit of code in place" using z.m.l. -- a.k.a. zen markup language, a.k.a. zero markup language -- but i doubt you're interested in testing it _at_all_, let alone "like crazy", which is quite alright with me, thank you very much, as i don't need _your_ help... nonetheless, the beta-test is open to all, by e-mailing: zml_talk-subscribe(a)yahoogroups.com -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] I'm sorry but I don't get it...
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

john said: > for me, as a volunteer, who spends > a considerable amount of time working on books, > but enjoys actually finishing one and seeing it posted, > I can't get my arms around the benefits. ... > Could someone please explain the benefit of semantic tagging > and why it won't horribly lengthen the amount of time required > to produce an eBook? first of all, thank you for asking your questions. i look forward to hearing some answers to them. and thank you for your history of doing e-texts for project gutenberg. it's important to retain the volunteers who have been working all along... i wanted to make a point about one thing you said... > If I'm ambitious, I can create an HTML version, > which presents the same information, but allows > "real" formatting rather than _italic_ and *bold*. actually, if you take a look at that "real" formatting in the html-source, you'll see it's plain-ascii, namely: [i]italic[/i] and [b]bold[/b] or -- if you prefer -- [em]emphasis[/em] and [strong]strong[/strong] except, of course, using angle-brackets instead of the square ones that i used so the brackets wouldn't get swallowed up or interpreted. but yes, of course, i know what you _meant_, which is that when the e-text is _displayed_, the _viewer-program_ converts that "markup" appropriately, into "real" italics and real bold, even though there were no italics or bold in the source, just the _tags_ that indicated that styling was present. that is, you need to use the appropriate "user agent" (to use the markup-geek terminology now in favor) that knows how to interpret the markup and render it. however, it's not that difficult to write a viewer-app that can take the plain-text file as input and render any words surrounded with _underscores_ as italics, and any words surrounded with *asterisks* as bold. it's just a different "user agent" interpreting the different markup, and rendering it as called for... i say that based on experience. i've written such an app. and indeed, it's not that difficult to write a converter that will change the underscore _form_of_italics_ into the other [i]form of italics[/i] that uses brackets. it's rather easy to see they are functionally equivalent. the difference between the two forms in the _raw_ file is the underscore form _enhances_ the user's comprehension, while the bracket form [em]obscures[/em] it, and badly... rather than creating 14,000+ new files, with all the work that entails, we can achieve the same end by distributing _one_ viewer-program that utilizes the existing e-texts... -bowerbird

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] I'm sorry but I don't get it...
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

dennis said: > - The huge benefit of HTML (besides the text formatting > that you mentioned) is the ability to insert images. > Some books I would never have considered working on > if could not have done an HTML. the ability of a web-browser to combine text and images is indeed truly wonderful. doing that -- cross-platform, 24/7, world-wide -- was one big reason the web took off. but, just as you need to use a certain kind of viewer-app (i.e., that web-browser) to attain this inclusion of images, an intelligent viewer for e-texts can _also_ achieve this. regular text-viewers won't do it. but specialized ones will. indeed, my viewer-program shows images when it is used to display a text-file, _provided_ that text-file includes information that tells _which_ image to display _where_. (just like a web-browser needs the img tag with that info.) amazingly, however, this obviously-relevant-and-important information is often simply _not_included_ in the text-file. indeed, the information is sometimes _stripped_from_ files! (the in-process working files from distributed proofreaders routinely contain a note regarding the presence of an image, a line that contains the caption for the image if there is one.) what is needed, so that an intelligent viewer-program can know where to place an image, and what file contains it, is some kind of indicator in the file giving that information. the indicator could be as crude as a filename, or it could be more subtle. (i'll detail this, if you would like me to do so.) all of this is just to resubmit a plea that i have made before (and will _continue_ making until i get a positive response!) for information about the name and location of graphic-files to be included in the _plain-text_ versions of the e-texts... -bowerbird

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PG TEI pages
by Joshua Hutchinson 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

The recent discussion has me wanting to go back and refresh myself on what TEI options were currently available. However the links to the online TEI converter at the PG home back seems to be dead. Is this something was removed or has the link just grown old and retired when no one was looking? http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ Josh

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I'm sorry but I don't get it...
by John Hagerson 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

Please picture this scenario: I'm a volunteer who has scanned a public-domain book and wants to make it available through the PG distribution mechanism (free of charge, available until the Internet collapses under the weight of spam and next-generation pornography, yadda, yadda, yadda). Today, if I can convert this book to plain text (according to some stated formatting conventions), I may submit the book. If I'm ambitious, I can create an HTML version, which presents the same information, but allows "real" formatting rather than _italic_ and *bold*. In the background, however, there is this Whole New World(tm) of semantic tagging, which presumably will allow the book to make snacks and provide entertainment during the reading process. But, for me, as a volunteer, who spends a considerable amount of time working on books, but enjoys actually finishing one and seeing it posted, I can't get my arms around the benefits. Except for recognizing the acronyms, I am agnostic to XML/ZML/TEI/ABC/EIEIO. Could someone please explain the benefit of semantic tagging and why it won't horribly lengthen the amount of time required to produce an eBook? Thank you.

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re: [gutvol-d] Re: Extra spaces in html files
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

karl said: > If you are interested in good HTML or PDF > you must start with a sematically tagged file > (these days that's mostly an XML file). can you give and defend your definition of "good" in this case? ditto with "semantically tagged file"? and, if you are up to the challenge, what is your recommendation as to the route that should be taken to get a library of 14,000+ e-texts converted to the brand of x.m.l. markup you think is best? (bonus points if you can convince all the other x.m.l. advocates that the markup version you prefer is better than the ones they prefer.) finally, greg recently requested that people come forward with working routines to implement an x.m.l.-master methodology. are you able to answer that call? did you? if so, do let us know. -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Don't feed the troll ! [Was: Extra spaces in html files]
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 14 Oct '04

14 Oct '04

i have a question for the person tending this listserve: is this kind of name-calling condoned on this listserve? -bowerbird

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Extra spaces in html files
by Andrew Sly 14 Oct '04

14 Oct '04

Dear fellow PG volunteers, I know that discussing issues of markup in PG files is a pointless argument that rarely goes anywhere. Still, I must ask if is it generally acceptable to most PG volunteers to have HTML files in the collection with massive amounts of redundant white space in them? By this point in time, there are megabytes of storage space in the PG archive which consist of only spaces because of much indentation in html files. Take a look at the html source of the recently released Edward Lear "A Book of Nonsense" to see an example a little more extreme than most I've seen: http://www.gutenberg.net/etext/13646 Andrew

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St. Nicholas Magazines
by Norm Wolcott 11 Oct '04

11 Oct '04

I have about 10 years of annuals of St. Nicholas Magazine rescued from a dumpster. Does anyone know the address of the DP High speed scanning place, and whether anyone there would process these? They have wonderful engravings. I would lpay the postage, if I knew where to send them and that someone would process them to DP. nwolcott2(a)post.harvard.edu Friar Wolcott, Gutenberg Abbey, Sherwood Forrest

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] Re: Extra spaces in html files
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 10 Oct '04

10 Oct '04

tony, thank you! your input as a blind reader is extremely valuable. i love it. > Let's not lose sight of the goal of PG ha! and you've got a sense of humor too! ;+) -bowerbird

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