August 2005 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

tony said: > Greg, Jim and Andrew all seem to agree that such notes > should not be included in PG. This is too bad since > I would like to see such annotating. i would think it would be too difficult to decide _who_ would get to provide the notes for a particular e-text... it's easy enough for people to put their annotations on their website for download by anyone who wants. i think that's the reasonable course of action to take. *** jon said: > But will it work for *him*? i dunno. thad will have to tell me. :+) > Will it meet the requirements he sees > that such a system must fulfill? i'd think so, since i've done a lot of thinking and searching and researching on what the realm of requirements are. but who knows? maybe thad has an idea for a better mousetrap. tell me, what do _you_ think "the requirements" are? > That's the purpose of this discussion > -- to assess the requirements for any system > enabling external annotations of digital publications. not really. i got the impression that thad just wants something that works; he wasn't trying to start a philosophical discussion about the realm of annotation. he just wants to juxtapose his commentary next to the text to which it refers, i'd think. (thad, don't let this melee scare you off, man; step right in and tell us what you really think!) ;+) > This list of requirements is independent of > solution type, but will certainly be useful in > evaluating how one would implement the application > (whether plain text or XML-based.) again, i don't think this is all that complicated. if you've examined all the types of annotation needed, and seen how various e-book programs have implemented solutions, it is straightforward. > Btw, since DP is providing the lion's share of > the PG texts, to master them in XML (TEI and XHTML), > and plans to redo many of the early PG texts, > the issue that PG's corpus is now mostly plain text > becomes less compelling. yeah, well, you'll let me know when that markup is complete, won't you please? because i'm not holding my breath on it... -bowerbird p.s. i'm still doing some exploring about "sophie", but i'll be getting back to you on that very soon...

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Annotations for students
by Thad Curtz 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

Hi. I'm a college lit teacher and have been thinking about doing footnotes and annotations of the sort most editions for college students supply for some PG classics, so my students could have the usual kinds of help reading them, and print them out, mark them up, bring them to class for discussion, etc. (I think the lack of notes. not the quality of the texts themselves, is currently the main barrier to more widespread use of PG texts in classes.) If I did this, I'd want to make the annotations available free for anybody else who wanted to use them for teaching (or just to read). Some form of structured markup that allowed people to reformat and print to different sizes and devices in the future would be nice, rather than pdfs... I've looked at the archive, and haven't found any discussion of this topic; any suggestions or advice about such a project (or where to look next) would be appreciated. Thanks, Thad

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

scott said: > I hate to leave issues hanging, > but in your case I make an exception. no problem, scott. i'll have an annotation app out soon, so thad won't be left hanging for long. *** jon said: > You have not stated *why* you believe your plain text solution > is superior to XML for this particular application. sorry, i thought i've said that too many times to repeat again. a plain-text solution is superior to x.m.l. because it frees people from the hassle of doing markup. fewer costs, equivalent benefits. fairly straightforward... > You've only dissed the XML approach w/o going into detail > of how your plain text approach will sufficiently solve > the external annotation of digital publications and meet > all the important requirements as we understand them now. first of all, i haven't "dissed" the x.m.l. approach. if somebody can present me an x.m.l. solution that works, and is perfectly transparent to users, i'll be happy as a clam. what i have pointed out, respectfully, is that acronyms are not solutions. the feeling here seems to be that "x.m.l. can do that" is an answer. it's not. if x.m.l. can truly do something, give people a straightforward answer about _how_ to do it... i know people who do tech support for software companies. they are constantly having to deal with the expectations that were falsely raised by the marketing department that says "oh sure, our software can do that" simply to close the sale. then, when the customer (rightfully) expects the software to "do that", they are in for the surprise of their life, because -- although the software _can_ do that -- it usually requires a very expensive person (or even a whole crew) to work it. you're doing the same kind of bait-and-switch to people here. everyone gets the _impression_ that x.m.l. is all-powerful, but x.m.l. actually never gets around to doing anything at all! i hope thad, the original poster, will correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe he came here asking about what kind of core methodology he could use that would "eventually" let him "write some scripts" or "build an application" to do annotations. he wants to do annotations now, and wants a way to do them that doesn't involve a lot of unnecessary work to implement. the specific task that he has in mind is writing the annotations, not creating an annotation system. believe me, if x.m.l. delivered even _one-fifth_ of its promises, i'd be one of its biggest supporters. but so far it's 95% vapor. and let us not forget that, in order to start milking benefits, _first_ we have to mark up the entire library, and i must again remind people that little progress is happening on that front... > So far, all you've implied is "Trust me, *I'm* building a tool" wrong. my saying is "the proof is in the pudding". i'm not asking anybody to trust anybody. be skeptical! when my annotation program is ready, i will let you know. and i "trust" that when your system is ready, you'll tell me. and i "trust" the lurkers will notice who finishes first, and finishes best, and which system is more robust and powerful and cost-efficient and end-user friendly and all that good stuff. > You are being disingenous by implying "they" > (the XML experts) haven't done it because it can't be done. wrong. it _can_ be done in x.m.l. the degree of difficulty is higher than with plain-text. but it's _eminently_ doable. nothing is that difficult in this arena. this ain't putting a man on the moon. it's basically a note-taking application. what i _am_ curious about, though, is why it hasn't been done already? you'd think that with the huge number of people running around saying "x.m.l. is the solution" that _somebody_ would've put a bell on this cat by now. perhaps that degree of difficulty is higher than we think. > The people who authored XML included > a large number of *experienced* software > developers who would eat your lunch. when they finally write an annotation app, show me their program! if it works well, i'll buy 'em beer to go along with my lunch, and take 'em to the strip club that evening... -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

jon said: > Most of the time one doesn't have to > author an actual implementation > to determine whether it will be hard or not. i program, jon. i'm not the world's greatest programmer, but there aren't that many things that are hard to program, even for me. you just have to be willing to break the job down into small enough pieces. oh yeah, it also helps to have users who don't care how big and/or slow your application might be... but until you've actually programmed your application, you don't really know what kind of obstacles lie hidden. heck, sometimes you don't find out until end-users tell you. > Most experienced and even inexperienced programmers > instinctively know the difficulty of most proposed applications. most inexperienced programmers can't count on their "instincts". (and someone like you -- a nonprogrammer -- certainly can't.) and experienced programmers know that some projects that look easy on the outside have a lot of those hidden obstacles. but one thing i can tell you for sure, as a programmer, is that if you let a nonprogrammer tell you what you should be doing, you're in for a very rough time, unless you're paid by the hour, and hard-up for the cash. (it also helps if you are a masochist.) another thing i can tell you for sure, as a programmer, is that the fact that a format is "open and universal" doesn't mean diddly-squat in terms of whether it'll be easy to program for it. > Bowerbird's system is clearly a RPGG > since I know it will NOT do everything > that has been discussed for digital texts. oh really? you seem to have some kind of super-e.s.p. when it comes to knowing about my stuff, some of which i haven't even programmed, which could provide _useful_info_ to me... heck, i can get a critique of my software _before_i_even_write_it_! that's awesome. so jon, tell me what it won't do... -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

donovan said: > Try as an experiment > putting in the HTML version of the document > a tag such as > blah blah blah <note1> blah blah > and in your header a link to an external style sheet (CSS2) > In that external style sheet, put something like > note1 { > content:after "Your comment here"; > } > or perhaps > content: url(note1.html); so, you want the user to edit an .html file at the insertion point of every annotation, and then edit the .css file appropriately... i'll let the original poster tell us whether that is something he feels is reasonable or not... > Of course, this will only work in a CSS2 compliant browser, > so for now that's everybody except IE. or, to put it another way, 1 out of 8 people. *** scott said: > I don't have time to debate Bowerbird on these points, i asked some fairly simple questions. there is no "debate". all you have to do is answer the fairly simple questions... > If the original poster decides to use Frontier > and whatever techie they find gets stuck, > I'll be happy to help them out. so even a "techie" might "get stuck" doing this? well, ok. but your offer to help them out is certainly generous... > I have done this kind of work, have automated it, > am in business, and have and do charge for it. great! can you point us to your for-a-fee solution? i would be interested in pricing it. do you have a cost-free demo? i'd like to see the profit-margin on "a few simple scripts". -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

jon said: > Anyone can build "tools", but there's a gazillion > "tools" out there gathering dust on shelves there are? can you point us to a half-dozen of these gazillion? > Anyone can build "tools", but there's a gazillion > "tools" out there gathering dust on shelves > because the authors did not do their homework properly > and try to understand the truly important requirements > leading to widescale embracement. well, have you written reviews on these tools to inform the authors about "the proper homework" and "the truly important requirements"? if so, i'd like to see the reviews and get this head-start. let's examine an actual example that i gave in this thread. tk3, from nightkitchen.com, has good annotation features. these include dogearing, highlighting (in 4 different colors), stickies (in those same 4 colors), and a notebook capability, which allows the user to include text, graphics, and movies from the e-book in their notes. annotations can be shared. how does that stack up to your gazillion other tools, jon? > No need to build "tools" to provide this perspective. > That's silly. The tools can be built, whether based on > XML or plain text, when there is a need and a decision > to go ahead *after* fully understanding the requirements. except you will _not_ fully comprehend the situation _until_ you build the tools. it's an iterative process. and the fact that you don't know that is one of our main points of contention... i encourage you to get some programming experience, jon. it'll make you a lot smarter... -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

jon said: > Since the W3C standards are open and universal, > others can likewise build their own application -- > no need to invent a new hooking mechanism. so you are telling the original poster that he can "build his own application", is that what i'm getting? nobody in the big wide world of x.m.l. has done it yet? it's interesting how you always say "x.m.l. can do this", but when it gets right down to it, nobody has done it. when are y'all gonna get around to solving these issues? you're telling people that they can do it themselves, but meanwhile the experts haven't even done it yet! don't you sense the disconnect in what you're saying? vapor vapor vapor vapor vapor. > Markup can change, but in the case of using 'id', > the document maintainers will be careful to keep 'id's > undisturbed as much as possible during document edits. keep that in mind when you're building your system, scott! > Can this be done with plain text? Not as easily i'll worry about the plain-text implementation. and it'll be all you can do to keep up with me... > (I was thinking of it back in 2000 for Yomu.) what was "yomu"? people here might want to know. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Jon Noring 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

Scott wrote: > Bowerbird wrote: >> you've got some slippery thinking here about the "id" markers. >> do they already exist in the text? how did they get there? >> how did the database, which links id markers and annotations, >> come into existence? how are annotations shared with others? >> can annotations be made on annotations? what about things like >> graphics and movies -- how can they be utilized as annotations? > I don't have time to debate Bowerbird on these points, but if the > original poster or anyone else who is actually going to work on > annotation has serious questions, I'll be happy to throw in my $0.02 > if I notice the thread. Most of the time one doesn't have to author an actual implementation to determine whether it will be hard or not. Most experienced and even inexperienced programmers instinctively know the difficulty of most proposed applications. It's like saying "if I go to the roof of a tall building and toss a bowling ball off the side, it will begin accelerating to the ground." It's obvious what will happen --there's no need to even waste the time and run the experiment. Some aspects of the current discussion about external annotation of digital texts is similar. If one wants to implement some system, planning and forethought are needed *before* writing lines of code. For example, does XML confer benefits in the annotation system over plain text, or vice-versa? Obviously, Bowerbird wants everyone in the digital text arena to embrace regularized digital text, and he is (apparently) building a set of working applications (he calls them "tools") to prove his point. All the power to him. But we certainly have the right to bring up the requirements issues and call into question whether regularized plain text is sufficient for all uses and needs of the digital text universe. There are those among us, including yours truly, who believe that XML should form the core of digital publishing processes and formats. Even if Bowerbird implements his system, we will ask: "will it do this and do that?" We *know* that XML and its many associated W3C and IETF specifications and RFCs confers a powerful and sufficient foundation to do all the myriad things proposed for the digital publishing universe (that I know of at least, and I've looked at a *lot* of advanced uses.) And we don't have to write code to *know* this as true (see bowling ball discussion above.) Those who listen to Garrison Keillor's "Prairie Home Companion" are familiar with the fictional "Ralph's Pretty Good Grocery" (RPGG) in Lake Wobegon. Their advertising slogan is "If you can't get it at Ralph's, you can probably get along without it." Bowerbird's system is clearly a RPGG since I know it will NOT do everything that has been discussed for digital texts. Whether it will hit the sweet spot and win the hearts and minds of the ebook masses (which must include all the important stakeholders in the digital publishing universe), who will overlook its deficiencies, remains to be seen. I'm skeptical, but will wait to see what arrives. Jon

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

scott said: > All that's required is a tab-delimitted file > (or database or spreadsheet) with 2 columns: > id, annotation. again, i say, please provide people with this solution! if it's as easy as you say, it shouldn't take much time. right? > Now, in your favorite scripting or programming language, > iterate thru the file, read the id and annotation, > then replace the former with the latter in the marked-up book. > (Including the appropriate (X)HTML wrapper, as noted.) you've got some slippery thinking here about the "id" markers. do they already exist in the text? how did they get there? how did the database, which links id markers and annotations, come into existence? how are annotations shared with others? can annotations be made on annotations? what about things like graphics and movies -- how can they be utilized as annotations? > For someone who doesn't write scripts, it's not trivial. > For someone who does, it's a few lines of code. as above, if it's just a few lines of code, why won't you write 'em? > Note that with a little more techie work, > the process could be simplified for the annotaters. that simplification would be a good thing, yes, a good thing indeed. > They could add the annotation text directly in the document, > surrounded by unique delimiters. and maybe with just a little bit more techie work, you could provide those "unique delimiters" for them, save them the trouble. not everyone knows x.h.t.m.l., and not everyone wants to learn it. > Then, a script could generate any version, > e.g. replace delimiters with (X)HTML wrapper > and/or with a generated unique ID; > extract the annotations to a separate (X)HTML file > that can be printed on its own, etc. sounds nifty. i'll implement this for a plain-text file, and you do the implementation for a marked-up file, and we'll see who gets done first, and who has the solution that proves to be more powerful and robust. how about it scott? are you up for the challenge? > All this stuff is pretty easy for a college student > with any scripting experience. then it should be a piece of cake for you, scott, right? > Sure, in the ideal world. Meanwhile, > inserting unique IDs is a pragmatic solution. i think that such a "pragmatic solution" would prove to be a false economy, by causing more problems than it solves, over the long run. any time you fork the original text into a different file, you're creating a brittleness that will bite you, and causing yourself unnecessary editing trouble in the future. > Of course there's some work involved > to sync the marked version with any future PG updates that's exactly what i was just talking about, yep. > but given "diff" tools, it's not that much work > for a handful of annotated books. > (And, with a little work, could be largely automated.) have you ever done this type of work? have you been successful in automating it? if so, then you would be well-advised to start a business, and charge the world for your expertise, since there are lots of companies who are finding it expensive to do this, and they would dearly love to find a less-costly solution... > And, I'm all in favor of someone taking the time > to get an XPATH solution working. me too! how about you doing that work? -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by D Garcia 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

Separation of content, anyone? Try as an experiment putting in the HTML version of the document a tag such as blah blah blah <note1> blah blah and in your header a link to an external style sheet (CSS2) In that external style sheet, put something like note1 { content:after "Your comment here"; } or perhaps content: url(note1.html); Of course, this will only work in a CSS2 compliant browser, so for now that's everybody except IE.

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