May 2006 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

re: [gutvol-d] re: blogs in e-books
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 23 May '06

23 May '06

david said: > You're extrapolating from a specific setup > at a specific company--one that will change in time. i have nothing else to go on. and i have no indication of the way -- if any -- that it "will change in time"... nothing technical has been written up. unlike many open-source programs, this one would appear to be being developed in secret. nothing technical about the app is written up... and while i'm quite happy to wait until the capability actually appears in an app that runs on my machine, so i can see what it does and exactly how it does it, you meanwhile are busy spewing glowing p.r.-speak. which, when you "answer" a hard question, turns to mush. if you can put a link in an e-mail here that takes a user to a comment that has been made in an osoft e-book -- let's say the one that i made in the "my antonia" demo -- then do it. otherwise, admit that -- at this point in time, with that e-book, anyway -- that capability is not present. or not. the answer here is of little or no consequence, because whether the annotations are viewable with an ordinary web-browser or not, the capability to code it (either way) is rather elementary to implement, which is the point that i made at the outset. if you'd like to see a demo program demonstrating the ease with which this can be done, i would be willing to code one up for you... but you don't really want me to steal dotreader thunder, do you? why not let mark carey roll out his version first? -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] re: blogs in e-books
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 23 May '06

23 May '06

david said: > You unwittingly made the point in linking via e-mail > to a browser-readable blog. Same blog could appear > in dotReader or another OpenReader implementation. that doesn't answer the question. will each and every blog/forum inside an openreader book be accessible with a general web-browser? because as far as i know, i can't put a link in this e-mail that would take the user to a comment in a thoutreader e-book. but if it can be done, then by all means, please show us. -bowerbird

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dotReader [Re: [gutvol-d] re: blogs in e-books]
by David H. Rothman 23 May '06

23 May '06

> so why are you hyping it like it's such a big deal? But here we're talking about these capabilities skillfully integrated in a reader about to hit the market--and especially a standards-based one. > > but since you've brought it up, will these "blogs and forums" > that are "contained" within openreader e-books from osoft > be addressable by the general public using web-browsers? Yes. You can still have blogs and forums accessible through general Web browsers. Jon would be a better one to discuss this, but obviously it's a server issue. You unwittingly made the point in linking via e-mail to a browser-readable blog. Same blog could appear in dotReader or another OpenReader implementation. > > or, like the current osoft thoutreader, will people need to use > that particular piece of software in order to view the comments? Thanks for helping me make the case for meaningful e-book standards ;-))))))))) This is exactly why OSoft is so keen on the OpenReader format. I msyelf don't want OSoft-format editions of PG books. I want OpenReader-format books, and OSoft agrees--hence, dotReader's use of OpenReader as the featured format. Beyond that, I'll be disgusted if dotReader and OSoft are the only ones able to do justice to the format. Jon's itching to work with FBReader (a planned implementer) and others. > > a clear answer will tell us a lot about your attitude on "lock-in". Well, I don't see how clearer the answer could be that than. If PG wants to free its books from lock-in and add new capabilities, especially interactivity, then a dotReader/OpenReader approach would be the way to go. At the same time PG could still offer other formats, including, yes, ZML, which would be trivial for dotReader to read. Let the marketplace decide. Elsewhere you write: > i'm of the opinion that most books probably will not be able > to find a sufficiently large number of commenters to warrant > the work that an author will have to do to open up the process > of writing to such interaction. but it's an interesting experiment It'll happen if e-books are easier for schools and libraries to use. Tearing down the Tower of eBabel would be a start. Plus, major publishers are talking to us about commercial uses of the interactivity, such as for book clubs. Popularity of a book, by the way, is only one determinant of whether there'll be commenters. The fervor of the particpants matters, and that could happen with Long Tail books, not just best-sellers. As for if:book's cool work, the example you gave is Web based. dotReader and hopefully Sophie will go beyond that. A toast to both! David On 5/22/06, Bowerbird(a)aol.com <Bowerbird(a)aol.com> wrote: > david said: > > BIRD: In the snippet below, you simply LINKED to a blog. > > and in most cases, that will be quite good enough, thanks, > because people can then read the blog there, and comment. > > but since you've brought it up, will these "blogs and forums" > that are "contained" within openreader e-books from osoft > be addressable by the general public using web-browsers? > > or, like the current osoft thoutreader, will people need to use > that particular piece of software in order to view the comments? > > a clear answer will tell us a lot about your attitude on "lock-in". > > > > dotReader, OpenReader's first implementation, will > > CONTAIN blogs and forums and make them readable > > to users even when they're offlline. > > it's not hard to implement that... > > the app just downloads the content, > and saves it for offline presentation, > then uploading what is to be posted, > capabilities already included in many > r.s.s. readers and blogging software... > > depending on if people actually use it, > it could end up being a neat technology, > much like all the other instantiations of it > i discussed in my earlier post in this thread. > > my point was that it's not difficult to implement. > > it's not. > > so why are you hyping it like it's such a big deal? > > -bowerbird > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > >

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re: [gutvol-d] Kevin Kelly in NYT on future of digital libraries
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 23 May '06

23 May '06

another comment on "the pages of books reading each other"... > http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/bparchive?year=2006& post=2006-05-22,1 -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] re: blogs in e-books
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 23 May '06

23 May '06

by the way, if anyone wants to see an example of an experiment aimed at eliciting reader interaction at the stage of a "finished first draft" of a book, see: > http://www.futureofthebook.org/gamertheory/ this project of "the institute for the future of the book" just went up today. in addition to an ability to comment on any _paragraph_ of the book, there is a general forum. i'm of the opinion that most books probably will not be able to find a sufficiently large number of commenters to warrant the work that an author will have to do to open up the process of writing to such interaction. but it's an interesting experiment. and then of course there will always be some _major_ exceptions, on the order of chris anderson and the blog he has been keeping while writing his "long tail" book. because of the great exposure the idea got from its description in a "wired" cover story last year, and because anderson just happens to be the editor of "wired", and because -- let's face it -- the idea is a _very_ compelling one that therefore subsequently has been written up all over the place, anderson's "long tail" blog has been a tremendously exciting space. but my sense is that this will be the _exception_, rather than the rule. -bowerbird

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Re: DotReader.com adr. [Re: OpenReader vs. the troll in the basement [re: [gutvo
by Joshua Hutchinson 23 May '06

23 May '06

The show-stopper isn't the relative popularity (people have successfully argued lots of things in PG's history that didn't seem too popular at first blush). What we *need* is a conversion utility (the "open tool-chain" that Marcello refers to). I don't expect a conversion tool that can take our somewhat sloppy (at times) encoded plain text. While wonderful, that is asking too much. But I *do* want a conversion tool that can run from PGTEI to OpenReader format. If the tool chain is open source and runs on Linux, we can probably have a quick and dirty converter up relatively quickly. As always, I'd be happy to test the heck out of it. Josh > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David H. Rothman" <davidrothman(a)yahoo.com> > To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> > Subject: DotReader.com adr. [Re: OpenReader vs. the troll in the basement [re: [gutvol-d] Kevin Kelly in NYT on future of digital libraries]] > Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:39:53 -0400 > > > Actually that's http://www.dotreader.com , not .org --mea culpa--and if PG > really cares about open source, then it should encourage strong open source > efforts of the OSoft variety rather than just wait until they catch on. > > Here's a little two-man software house in Tacoma, Washington, gambling > hundreds of thousands of dollars on an open-source reader that can do far > more than Plucker, allowing blogs and forums to be embedded inside books. > > Plucker has many appreciative users, but dotReader/OpenReader will be of far > greater importance to commercial publishers, who are already starting to > show interest. > > In turn, that'll be wonderful for PG works and other public domain books. > dotReader reader can work with many kinds of books while improving the user > experience. > > dotReader uses a turbocharged version of existing e-book standards that > techies and publishers have thrashed aroundfor years. > > It's the best of all worlds: open source for programmers and a powerful free > reader for users--and e-book standards similar to existing ones for > publishers. Plus, dotReader can handle other XML/CSS-related formats as > well. > > > We serverd 89504 plucker books in May 2006. > > I think you'll do much better with OpenReader available as well. OSoft's > e-reader for the format is a thing of beauty, and, as noted, it'll be free > to download. > > Plus, another awesome implementation is planned via the FBReader, which, > according to the Wikipedia, is catching on among Nokia 770 users. See > http://only.mawhrin.net/fbreader/plans.html and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plucker. > > Thanks, > David > > David Rothman | davidrothman(a)openreader.org | 703-370-6540 > TeleRead: http://www.teleread.org/blog > > On 5/22/06, Marcello Perathoner <marcello(a)perathoner.de> wrote: > > > > David H. Rothman wrote: > > > > > > > See the true details for yourself at http://www.dotreader.org. > > > > It says: > > > > www.dotreader.org > > > > This page is parked free, courtesy of GoDaddy.com > > > > Did the .reader bubble already burst? > > > > > > > I'd love for Gutenberg itself to offer OpenReader format > > > > We already offer most books in plucker. That's because they are open > > format, widely deployed and offer an open toolchain. > > > > We serverd 89504 plucker books in May 2006. > > > > We'll see about OpenReader once you'll have widely deployed your .reader > > and made available an open toolchain. > > > > > > -- > > Marcello Perathoner > > webmaster(a)gutenberg.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gutvol-d mailing list > > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >

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re: blogs in e-books
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 23 May '06

23 May '06

david said: > BIRD: In the snippet below, you simply LINKED to a blog. and in most cases, that will be quite good enough, thanks, because people can then read the blog there, and comment. but since you've brought it up, will these "blogs and forums" that are "contained" within openreader e-books from osoft be addressable by the general public using web-browsers? or, like the current osoft thoutreader, will people need to use that particular piece of software in order to view the comments? a clear answer will tell us a lot about your attitude on "lock-in". > dotReader, OpenReader's first implementation, will > CONTAIN blogs and forums and make them readable > to users even when they're offlline. it's not hard to implement that... the app just downloads the content, and saves it for offline presentation, then uploading what is to be posted, capabilities already included in many r.s.s. readers and blogging software... depending on if people actually use it, it could end up being a neat technology, much like all the other instantiations of it i discussed in my earlier post in this thread. my point was that it's not difficult to implement. it's not. so why are you hyping it like it's such a big deal? -bowerbird

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OpenReader vs. the troll in the basement [Re: [gutvol-d] re: Kevin Kelly in NYT on future of digital libraries]]
by David H. Rothman 22 May '06

22 May '06

BIRD: In the snippet below, you simply LINKED to a blog. dotReader, OpenReader's first implementation, will CONTAIN blogs and forums and make them readable to users even when they're offlline. They'll be embedded INSIDE the books, as you well know from the TeleRead Web log. It's one thing to talk about embedded blogs and forums. It's another thing to offer them in a viable reader, as OSoft will be doing via dotReader. GREG: Well, as I said, beware of trolls and friends setting the tone for PG. I trust you'll be more open-minded in choosing technologies and formats. dotReader will offer the interactivity and multimedia capabilities you were talking up in USA Today. Call me at 703-370-6540 if you want to begin some friendly and constructive dialogue. Thanks, David Bowerbird wrote: > > what i said was that you were making a big deal about > "putting a blog inside an e-book", when that is actually > a somewhat trivial thing to do. > > look, i've inserted a blog inside of this e-mail: > > http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/05/19/the-book-is-dead-long-live-… > >

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dotReader ][Re: OpenReader vs. the troll in the basement [re: [gutvol-d] Kevin Kelly in NYT on future of digital libraries]]
by David H. Rothman 22 May '06

22 May '06

Hi, Greg. Actually dotReader is ANTI-bubble. E-books won't catch on big until they the technology improves, among other things; and the dotReader/OpenReader combo can offer major interactivity in a big way. I've already mentioned blogs and forums embedded inside e-books (and available even for off-line reading). As for the desirability of interactivity and multimedia for consumers--that's no small factor, according to the esteemed Greg Newby. dotReader/OpenReader will oblige in both areas. Meanwhile see below from USA Today, especially the last paragraph: "To be compelling enough to trigger any kind of mass migration away from paper books, e-books will need to have compelling characteristics regular books don't, such as interactivity and mixed-media capabilities, Newby and others said." Can we really trust this guy? ;-) I'd like to think so. I hope he and others in PG will be open-minded about both the format and the implementations, as opposed to letting the trolls and their buddies set the tone for PG. Cheers, David http://thelifeofbooks.blogspot.com/2006/04/whats-trouble-with-ebooks.html We don't see a lot of resistance to electronic books per se," said Gregory Newby, director of Project Gutenberg, the first electronic library, which offers 20,000 titles for free. "What we see are limiting factors in specialized readers and difficulty in finding good stuff to read." Plus, "publishers are charging the same amount for an electronic book as for a paper book." There are other challenges too. With e-book readers, people may be able to store numerous texts in one small device and do things to make reading easier, such as changing type size, something that's impossible with print. But people also like to share books with others, resell them and hand them down to their children, he said. "When you buy a book, you have it forever," Newby said. "With these electronic books, you often are prevented from doing those things that you can do with regular books. What happens when my device breaks?...Books aren't just words on a page. They are things you can trade, share and store for later." To be compelling enough to trigger any kind of mass migration away from paper books, e-books will need to have compelling characteristics regular books don't, such as interactivity and mixed-media capabilities, Newby and others said. On 5/22/06, Greg Newby <gbnewby(a)pglaf.org> wrote: > On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:37:28PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > David H. Rothman wrote: > > > > > > > See the true details for yourself at http://www.dotreader.org. > > > > It says: > > > > www.dotreader.org > > > > This page is parked free, courtesy of GoDaddy.com > > > > Did the .reader bubble already burst? > > That's the funniest thing I've read all month. Thanks! > > dotreader.com seems a better source to start. I'm not sure > if it has true details or not, though. > -- Greg > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >

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OpenReader vs. the troll in the basement [re: [gutvol-d] Kevin Kelly in NYT on future of digital libraries]
by David H. Rothman 22 May '06

22 May '06

A feathery troll with competing business interests is once again abusing this PG list to smear the OpenReader e-book standard and the TeleRead Web Log. The normal rule is, "Don't feed the troll." But every now and then, as cofounder of OpenReader and moderator of the TeleBlog, I just may pop up with the facts for the benefit of newbies who don't yet know what's going on. Yes, e-book software from OSoft, our first implementer, been available for several years now to do SHARED annotations. Embedded forums and even blogs inside books will be on the way. Imagine how this could help such wonderful activities as collaborative learning in K-12. We're talking here about dotReader, the new name for OSoft's ThoutReader, except it'll work with the OpenReader format. dotReader is a real app for real users--developed by a real company, as opposed to a troll in the basement, so to speak. dotReader is named for Dorothy Thompson, an early foe of fascism and the leading female news commentator of the 30s and 40s. Miss Thompson also happened to be married to Sinclair Lewis, one of my favorites. She loved to annotate her books and share her literary enthusiasm with friends. Fittingly, then, an early book for dotReader will be Peter Kurth's "American Cassandra: The Life of Dorothy Thompson," which the L.A. Times hailed as "exemplary biography, thoroughly researched and entertainingly written." The next will very likely be a food guide, also the subject of stellar reviews. Readers will be able to use dotReader's interactive capabilities to help the coauthors of the food book stay up to date. Needless to say, OSoft is particularly keen on seeing public domain literature in its format. Anyway, I hope I've made this case for the R Word--Real. The real company behind dotReader consists of two super-hardworking guys who've bet their assets in a serious way and hired other programmers. This is American business and technology at its best. I'm reminded of Preston Tucker, who was to Ford, GM and the others what OSoft is to Adobe, Microsoft, Amazon and the rest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Tucker) It's a shame that the troll is less interested in disc brakes than in badmouthing the Tuckers of e-book software. See the true details for yourself at http://www.dotreader.org. The site for the OpenReader standard is at http://www.openreader.org. The TeleBlog, where I've often discussed related issues, is at http://www.teleread.org/blog. You can reach OSoft CEO Mark Carey and CTO Gary Varnell through the info at http://www.dotreader.com/site/?q=node/21. Sign up for progress reports via dotReader's home page. Like the troll, the proprietary formatters aren't too happy. But OpenReader and dotReader are happening anyway; and I'm expecting an outcome much happier than Tucker's. OpenReader and dotReader have just returned from a highly successful visit to BookExpo America. Some major publishers have expressed serious interest. It's just a matter of getting one of them to be the first to benefit from OpenReader and dotReader--a major but not insurmountable challenge in a conservative industry such as publishing. Gary and Mark are also keen on hearing from smaller publishers, whose use of the format and compatible software will help with the larger houses. More importantly, the cause of small publishers is worthy in itself. The first version of dotReader will hit the Net for free this summer, thereby driving the troll crazy since all along he kept claiming that the OpenReader standard would be just vaporware. Might there be delays? Of course, as with any quality-minded effort. But yes, the launch will happen soon, and it would be good if the troll surpassed low expectations and apologized for his persistent falsehoods and abuse of the PG list. > ... amazon -- which announced such a feature will be available soon in mobipocket -- could save themselves "a fortune in development costs" by using openreader instead of mobipocket. given that it's relatively trivial to embed this capability, i'm not sure what he's thinking. Amazon could not give me a date when Mobipocket would have the shared annotations feature, so, in a Mobi context, we're not necessarily talking "soon" at all. The shared annotations will be available for now only via a Web browser, an e-book museum kind of deal, rather than downloadable e-book files. Besides, whether the issue is standards-compliance or user customization, dotReader does indeed leave Mobipocket behind in the dust. Those guys either don't get standards or bungled Mobipocket in certain ways. I love Mobipocket compared to Adobe, but OSoft's dotReader will be much better than either, and Amazon and rivals would be damn foolish not to use this rather affordable technology, which they would be free to rebrand. The main credit for dotReader, of course, goes to Gary Varnell and Mark Cary at OSoft, but Jon and I have contributed hundreds of suggestions to OpenReader first implementer. What's more, another terrific implementation, FBReader, is on the way; and you can bet I'll be bragging about FBReader, too, going by the high quality of the work (I'm basing this statement on what friends have told me). Other fine implementers cherished! Catch up with jon(a)openreader.org for OpenReader's preliminary specs and also to provide him your own feedback. Moreover, if you're a publisher, including the public domain variety, give us your thoughts on the traits you'd like for authoring and translation tools. Feedback from small guys especially cherished! I'd love for Gutenberg itself to offer OpenReader format and for, say, Michael Hart or Greg Newby to participate constructively in the standards-setting process. We want the OpenReader process moved to a group such as OASIS so we link up with established standard-setting. Yes, Michael, OpenReader-to-ASCII conversion will be trivial. Contrast that with Amazon's proprietary approach. Like the troll, by the way, Amazon reads my TeleRead blog. I hear you do, too. That's great. Despite my disagreements over various issues, such as the best way to achieve true QC, I continue to wish for Project Gutenberg's success since I don't want governments, library bureaucrats and big publishers or even small ones to dictate which books survive. We need all kind of approaches. It is unfortunate that the troll is casting issues in terms of one vs. another. I'd love to see my own library efforts reinforce PG's and vice versa. As for the troll's competing business interests vs. OpenReader's: 1. Jon Noring tells me that the feathery troll has given his ZML-related app a $50K price tag. True? Or is the troll just doing his reader as part of an Albert Schweitzer act for the good of humanity. If the price is a mere $50K, I'm amazed. Isn't the app worth with more? Poor creature. The many hours spent trolling against OpenReader are seemingly part of the development costs of his ZML work. I'm flattered that we're such a high priority. Before the troll gave up, he'd made hundreds of posts of the TeleBlog, and many and perhaps even most of them were either diatribes against either OpenReader or those involved. 2. From what I hear--true?--the troll is refusing to open source his app. By contrast, OSoft, despite having bet hundreds of thousands of dollars on development costs, is open-sourcing everything but the rather optional DRM that it added only at the vehement insistence of publishers. 3. If the troll's ZML surprised the cosmos and caught on, it would be trivial for the free dotReader to read it since it'll work with almost any XMLish format despite the focus on OpenReader, the new standard. Whoops. There goes the business model of either the troll or whoever buys his app. On a very related topic, no, the troll was not banned from the TeleBlog, but I do agree with him that it would be a big time-waster for him to return to the area and continue his trolling. Then he'd go on moderation, waste a lot of people's time and perhaps end up after all being the first of many hundreds of commenters to be banned--well, with the exception of the less subtle spammers. For the troll's acknowledgment that he didn't want to play by the TeleBlog's rules, check out the message below. You'll see that when our spam filters kept eating up the troll's remarks, Jon Noring offered to work with the him to solve the problem for both him and the TeleBlog; we don't like any legit comments to vanish. Alas, however, the troll turned down the suggestion. All we wanted in return was civil conduct. For those who don't know, Jon is a TeleBlog participant and the main founder of OpenReader--someone who, unlike the troll, has been highly active in mainstream e-book standards setting efforts with both small and large publishers involved. Significantly, the TeleBlog is Usenet NOT. We are a community where we compare notes on e-book technology and news, and where we welcome constructive disagreement rather than the trollish kind so well defined in the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) If our ill-feathered friend changes his ways and acts civilly, rather than doing troll spams, of course he'll be welcome back--with the expectation that he'll be a full community member as opposed to working constantly for his $50K or whatever he wants for his app. Along with the other TeleBlog regulars, I love Usenet as Usenet, but we'll not alter the community nature of the TeleBlog to make it troll-friendly. As for the PG list, which the troll has used to disparage not just me and OpenReader but also the whole TeleBlog community (supposedly we're all "unrealistic" or whatever the adjective--not just the evil moderator), it's the decision of Michael and Greg. If they want to keep the PG list unmoderated, that's fine. At the same time they would do well to remember how Joseph McCarthy took advantage of the "objective" nature of the press to engage in never-ending character assassination against opponents, just as the troll is doing against those he sees as business rivals standing in the way of his $50K and his pride. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mccarthyism for more on McCarthy's lies, which branded a number of people as unAmerican, ranging the composer Aaron Copeland to the novelist Dashiell Hammett. The troll's McCarthy-style posts are a vicious and highly disreputable use of the PG list, and it's high time that more responsible members of the list asked the troll to stop them. As Joseph Welch, a U.S. Army lawyer, told the late Senator from Wisconsin: "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" The troll is not just an innocent clown. While he delights in jousting with those he perceives as enemies and is motivated by his product-related pride as much as anything else, he also wants cash for this competing reader app; and he doesn't care whom he smears along the way. Michael Hart, whom the troll admires, and whom I do, too, regardless of my disagreements on certain matters, perhaps can tell the troll to stop doing his McCarthyism act. The troll's Internet McCarthyism--this repeated use of outright lies in a forum to which he has easy access--reflects badly on the PG list and lowers newbies' impression of a valuable group like PG. Thanks, David Rothman Cofounder of the OpenReader Consortium http://www.openreader.org Moderator of the TeleBlog http://www.teleread.org/blog davidrothman(a)openreader.org | dr(a)teleblog.org | 703-370-6540 P.S. This list is normally devoted to PG, not TeleRead or OpenReader. I wouldn't be commenting here except that the troll keeps gratuitously introducing these topic in a negative and misleading way. ================================================ ------------Original Message------------ From: Bowerbird(a)aol.com To: gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org, Bowerbird(a)aol.com Date: Thu, Apr-13-2006 7:22 PM Subject: re: [gutvol-d] don't believe everything you read on the internets like i said, it doesn't matter to me if i'm banned or not, because i want to stop wasting time over there anyway. and since i am certainly not about to change what i say _or_ how i say it, it would only be a matter of time before i was banned eventually, "for the good of the community". besides, jon, with adobe plotting against openreader, you've got much bigger fish to fry than my fat old ass... -bowerbird

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