December 2011 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: [gutvol-d] book of james -- 001
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 21 Dec '11

21 Dec '11

don said: > If you read the whole page > it discusses pulling djvu text sigh. i read the whole page. you can pull the djvu text for the entire book, but -- once again -- i want it for _each_page_. -bowerbird

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a review of some digitization tools -- 022
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 21 Dec '11

21 Dec '11

david garcia (dpname="donovan") said: > I'm surprised that no one has yet > mentioned pandoc as a useful piece of kit. i'm surprised you weren't already in my kill-filter, donovan. but you are now... :+) *** anyway... last week: > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/private/gutvol-d/2011-December/008456.html last month: > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2011-November/002390.html > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2011-November/002392.html 6 months ago: > http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2011/06/my-monospaced-life/ 1 year ago: > http://lists.pglaf.org/pipermail/gutvol-p/2010-July/000074.html 3 years ago: > http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/09/why-you-should-care-about-xml.html 5 years ago: > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2007-January/000488.html i didn't bother to mention pandoc to you idiots because you were so convinced that light-markup wouldn't work, and willing to bet (and lose) all your credibility against it. *** also, since we're on the subject of pandoc once again, someone who wanted to win that $100 prize from lee could convert my .html output for "books and culture" into markdown and restructured-text, using pandoc... he has no credibility left. might as well take his cash too. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] book of james -- 001
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 21 Dec '11

21 Dec '11

don said: > Even simpler, you can do um, no, that shows the image. (buried inside the viewer-app.) i want the _text_ for the page. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] book of james -- 001
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Dec '11

20 Dec '11

james said: > Bowerbird, > If you check the link I gave you > you'll see what I'm up against. i see it... it's not an easy book, but it's not a hard one, either, not if you accept that some parts are impossible. :+) i've already set up its online skeleton: > http://z-m-l.com/go/bhaga/bhagap123p.html i can make it so you can work on it online. or offline, if you prefer, makes no difference. online would let other people work with you, if you'd be interested in having that happen... (if you want to work on it online, by yourself, just don't tell anyone where you've located it.) what i will need from you, as soon as possible, is a version of your text-file with the pagebreaks marked, so i can splice the text into the skeleton. a simple line of equal-signs will do the job fine... this is the last line of page 97... ========================= and this is the first line of page 98... again, as soon as possible, so i can do it right away, so things will be ready for you shortly after christmas. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] book of james -- 001
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Dec '11

20 Dec '11

james said: > I do have the book as 1 text page per file. ok. (i think.) > I got it this way by downloading the page images, > making TIFFs out of them, then running tesseract oh dear. that was a waste of time. > I can give you the separate text files > in a Zip archive if you wish. are these the files after you made your corrections? if so, then yes, those are exactly the files that i need. zip 'em up, and put it in your dropbox. > My work method is to use guiguts to > remove page numbers and reformat paragraphs first. oh dear. more wasted time. oh well. (also, removing pagenumbers is the _last_ thing to do. they help let you be aware where you are in the book.) > The link you gave gives me a 404 error. yes, here's the correct one: > http://z-m-l.com/go/bhaga/bhagap123.html sorry about that... > I'm not sure what you mean by online. i mean you do your corrections on the web... which means that other people can help you. (at least if you give them the web-address.) but if you prefer to work offline, you can do that. > I thought you would > provide a command line utility i'm a mac person, james. we believe in a friendly interface. only a sadist seeks to saddle you with command-line crap... > that would convert ZML to the various formats. but first you have to get your text _into_ .zml format. > Were you thinking of something like DP uses? "something like" that is a fairly accurate description. my system isn't nearly as convoluted or bureaucratic. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] book of james -- 001
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Dec '11

20 Dec '11

i said: > http://z-m-l.com/go/bhaga/bhagap123p.html oops! i got an extra "p" in there. try this instead: > http://z-m-l.com/go/bhaga/bhagap123.html -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] book of james -- 001
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Dec '11

20 Dec '11

james said: > It will take me a LONG time to finish this text. no it won't... :+) > I'm using archive.org's text file and > I use Jedit and guiguts to get it in shape, > one page at a time. well, with those tools, it might take a long time. but if you instead use a system i'll build for you, you could whip the book out before you know it. but i won't get to it until after christmas... -bowerbird

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a review of some digitization tools -- 024
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Dec '11

20 Dec '11

let's discuss, for a minute, how to prepare a .zml file... for fun, we'll contrast it with how to code an .html file. *** we'll start with something basic -- simple italics. let's say that a word is _italicized_ in the p-book. to do that markup in .zml, you surround the word with _underscores._ you can type 'em in manually, or you might have a tool that has a button that you can click to have the tool insert them automatically. in .html, you'd surround the word with italics tags, so an [i]italicized[/i] word looks something like that. (i changed the angle-brackets to straight-brackets, so an .html viewer-tool will not be confused by it.) again, you can type the brackets-plus-tag manually, or you might have a tool to insert 'em automatically. most .html authoring-tools have an [i] or [em] button. so in this case, for italics, there's not much difference between .zml and .html... one uses underscores and the other uses bracket-commands, but -- essentially -- there's no difference between them. i might think that underscores are easier to type, and easier on the eyes, and thus less obstructive when it comes time to _edit_, but it's hard to argue that there's much difference here. and thus it is with a lot of the mark-up you might do... in .zml, you indicate a blockquote with a leading " > ", whereas in .html you use [blockquote]xyz[/blockquote]. and in .zml, you indicate a list item with a leading " * ". while in .html it's more like this: [ul][li]abcdef[/li][ul]. again, i think the .zml looks a lot less obtrusive, and that is indeed part of the big appeal of "zen" markup, but if zen doesn't matter to you, there's no difference. *** however, there _are_ some cases where it does make a difference when you're tagging in .zml versus .html. for instance, take the case of _headers_... on the face, it might appear to be a similar situation. in .zml, you indicate a header by 4 or more blank lines, follow it with exactly 2 lines, and precede it with a space. so, aside from the blank lines above and below it, which "sets it off" such that the header will gain your attention, a header has a pretty ordinary appearance in your text: > > > > > chapter 7 header > > in .html, you tag a header thus: [h2]chapter 7 header[/h2] so if it was merely a matter of the tagging of the header, this case is exactly like the previous: not much difference. but various other factors come into play involving headers. first, the table-of-contents should _link_ to every header... at a bare minimum, this means your header has to have an "id" that is attached to it, to which the link is directed. so in addition to the _header_ tag, you must make an "id", with another bracket-command, which might look like this: > [div id="chapter_7_header"][/div] so now the header, with its matching "id" spec, looks like: > [div id="chapter_7_header"][/div] > [h2]chapter 7 header[h2] you could leave it just like that. many people do, actually. but .zml does more -- by default -- to aid in navigation. every .zml header links _back_ to the table-of-contents, so a person who is at any header can _jump_ to the t.o.c. to do the same kind of back-link in .html, you'd do this: > [div id="chapter_7_header"][/div] > [a href="#table_of_contents"] > [h2]chapter 7 header[h2] > [/a] that's a little more work, but very few .html tools do this, so you'd have to do it manually. but it's still manageable. but there's more. .zml also generates automatic links to the _previous_ and _next_ chapters, so a person can easily "skim" from one chapter to the next, which comes in handy. in order to do this in .html, you'd have to do this: > [div id="chapter_7_header"][/div] > [a href="#chapter_6_header"]prev[/a] > [a href="#chapter_8_header"]next[/a] > [a href="#table_of_contents"] > [h2]chapter 7 header[h2] > [/a] note that this raises the level of complexity quite a bit. the "id" was based on the header itself, so that was easy to generate, because the two are so close to each other. so it would be rather easy to code a reg-ex for the task. but when each header has to know the id of the header which came before it, and the one which comes after it, we have experienced an increase in the difficulty factor, to the point where the reg-ex is gonna get pretty hairy. you will also need some tagging in there to get the links _positioned_ in the exact way that you'll want them, but i won't bother to put in that clutter too right now, as... ...i wish to point out that, all of a sudden, our header has gotten _buried_ inside a lot of .html-tag clutter... which makes it difficult if you need to do more editing. (a rule of thumb is you always need to do more editing.) so again, let's take a look back at the .zml header... > > > > > chapter 7 header > > very clean. everything is automatic. breath of fresh air. *** we can go through the very same exercise for footnotes. in the body of the text, where you have the footnote,[1] you will need to do the .html coding to create that link. [1] at the footnote itself, which might be in the "footnotes" section, you'll need to form an "id" for the link to jump to. and likewise, it's usually nice to have a _back-link_ too. which means you need to have an "id" in the body-text, and code the back-link in the footnotes section as well. and, seriously, that's more than you wanna do by hand. and thankfully, most of the time, you won't need to... many .html tools make it relatively easy to make a link. you just click where you want the link to be, and then click again where you want that link to jump to. easy... at least, it's easy if you only have a few such links... but if there's 580 footnotes, like a book i did a while back, you _will_ want these steps to be performed automatically. my .zml converter does that for you. *** now, don't get me wrong. there is absolutely _nothing_ in my converter-tool that some programmer could not clone in an .html authoring-tool. nothing at all. zilch. indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if it's already been done. (well, actually, it would. a little bit. but i'd get over it.) for instance, the text-to-html converter inside guiguts, the d.p. postprocessing tool, does good on footnotes... it'd even be possible to build an .html authoring-tool which inserted all of this code automatically and _also_ removed it from the file when you wanted to do editing -- so you wouldn't have all that crud distracting you -- only to re-insert it once again after you were finished... it's even possible this tool could be offered at no cost... it's even possible it could be an open-source creation... you will let us know if you find such a tool, won't you? :+) *** z.m.l. input file: > http://zenmagiclove.com/test-suite-2012.txt python script to create .html output: > http://zenmagiclove.com/cgi-bin/t2.py -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Recommendations on handling family tree tables - critique wanted
by James Simmons 19 Dec '11

19 Dec '11

Al, I've started on the pages with family trees and I have some samples that I'd like to get some feedback on before I do too many more of them. There are a LOT of family tree tables in this book. TABLE A. (Transcriber's Note: In the original book some tables were turned sideways. For reading as an e-book, these tables have been modified to read left to right rather than top-down). SVÂYAMBHUVA MANU _m.__ SATARÛPA -----+---Priyavrata | +---Uttânpâda | +---_Akûti__ | _m.__ Ruchi +--- KAPILA | | +---_Devahûti__ | | _m.__ Kardama ----+--- _Kalâ__ | | _m.__ Marichi +---_Prasûti__ | _m.__ Daksha +--- _Anasuyâ__ | _m.__ Atri | +--- _Sraddhâ | _m.__ Angirasa | +--- _Havirbhu__ | _m.__ Pulastya | +--- _Gati__ | _m.__ Pulaha | +--- _Kriyâ__ | _m.__ Kratu | +--- _Khyâti__ | _m.__ Bhrigu | +--- _Arundhati__ | _m.__ Vasistha | +--- _Sauti__ _m.__ Atharvan TABLE B. RUCHI _m.__ ÂKÛTI --- YAJNA --------------+ (married his |--+--- Tosha sister) Dakshinâ. --+ | | +--- Pratosha | | +--- Santosha | | +--- Bhadra | | +--- Sâuti | | +--- Idâmpati | | +--- Idhma | | +--- Kavi | | +--- Vibhu | | +--- Svâhra | | +--- Sudiva | | +--- Rochana N.B. The sons of Yajna are the Sushita Devas of the 1st. Manvantarâ. TABLE C Marichi _m. Kalâ__ | | --+--+-----------------+----- | | Kasyapa Pûrnimâ | +--------------+------------+-------- | | | Viraja Visvaga _Devakulyâ__ (River Ganges in subsequent incarnation). TABLE D. Atri _m. Anasûyâ__ | +----------------+--+------------------------+ | | | Datta Durvasas Soma (Rudra) (Brahmâ) TABLE E. Angirasa _m. Sraddhâ__ | ---+----------+-------+-+--------+----------+--------+----- | | | | | | _Sinivali__ _Kuhû__ _Râkâ__ _Anumati__ Utathya Vrihaspati TABLE F. Pulastya _m. Havirbhu__ | -------------+------------+----------------+ | | Agastya Visvaras _m. (1) Ilavila m. (2) Kesinî__ | | Kuvera +------+------+-------------+ | | | Ravana Kumbhakarna Vibhisana TABLE G. Pulaha _m. Gati__ | -----+---------------+-+---------------+--- | | | Karma Sreshtha Bariyas Sahishnu I hope the samples above are acceptable. The only other option I can think of is to treat every diagram as an illustration. Since this book is a translation of a Hindu scripture the diagrams are something we might live without in the plain text version. The samples above should use the Courier font, and there are no tabs in my file. Thanks, James Simmons On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Al Haines <ajhaines(a)shaw.ca> wrote: > > James, to say you've bitten off a mouthful would be an understatement <g>! To answer your question... > > Highly structured material (trees, tables, etc) (such as that on page 13 and elsewhere) can exceed 70 characters. For reproducing trees in HTML, the simplest method (and the one I've used), is to take the text version of the tree, copy/paste it into your HTML file, and wrap it in <pre></pre> tags. > > For trees with preceding diagrams (page 13 again) insert something like "[Illustration: Purusha]" in your text file, and the actual diagram in your HTML file. > > For extremely wide trees/tables, if any (more than 100 characters, say), split the tree into left and right halves for the text file. At the end of the file, include a transcriber's note mentioning which tables have been treated this way. For HTML, you can rejoin the halves, or leave them as in the text file, again using the <pre></pre> trick. > > I notice that some tables (pages 58, 59) are split across pages. Unless you can figure out how the two portions are joined, it's probably best to treat them as two separate tables. If you can figure how they're joined, it's acceptable to join them, but it looks as though you might end up with an extremely wide table. I'd say to keep things simple, and don't attempt a join. > > From what I've seen of the book, you should be able to render all trees/tables with alpha-numerics. > > Good luck! > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: gutvol-d-bounces(a)lists.pglaf.org [mailto: gutvol-d-bounces(a)lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of James Simmons > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 11:56 AM > To: Gutenberg Volunteers > Subject: [gutvol-d] Recommendations on handling family tree tables > > I am working on transcribing this book: > > http://www.archive.org/details/studyofbhagavata00benaiala > > This is a translation into English of an important Hindu scripture, originally in Sanskrit. Now that I have committed myself to transcribing it I find that it has many, many family tree tables in it. These are not part of the scripture itself, but were added to clear up who begat who. (All mythical characters). Some of these stretch out so wide that the page is rotated in the original. Others could easily be duplicated with ASCII characters in 80 columns or less. > > I've looked at some PG titles with geneologies like this one about Bach: > > http://www.gutenberg.org/files/35041/35041-h/35041-h.html#toc49 > > In this one the family tree tables are treated as illustrations. That would certainly be a simple way to deal with them, but again about half of the diagrams could be done with ASCII text. It would be painful, but it could be done. So do I do half and half, or try and do all text, or just do illustrations all the way? > > Thoughts? > > James Simmons >

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let's get some tutorials from the xhtml crowd
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 19 Dec '11

19 Dec '11

the xhtml crowd needs to do some tutorial threads. you guys seem to have all the answers. so spill 'em! :+) *** i've been showing people to proceed from "raw" o.c.r. but evidently that's old-fashioned... nowadays we just wave our hands in the air, and out pops finished .html. i'm sure all of those poor people over at d.p. would be full of gratitude if you were only to elucidate for them. so teach us the incantations and spells, oh wise ones! (pointers to all those "existing tools" will be good too.) *** meanwhile, alex, what's the story with this script? > http://www-kenh.archive.org/download/artofbook00holm/artofbook00holm_abbyy.… i don't need it myself, because i wrote an app for that. but i seem to remember someone was whining for it... -bowerbird

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