- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: Nay Sayers
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 Dec '10

16 Dec '10

i said: > the _very_ next question -- becomes "how do we do that?" oh yeah, did i mention that marcello has to buy your proposal? i know what michael hart said -- and i have every reason to believe that he actually believes it is true -- but the reality of the situation is that marcello has the keys to the vault... *** linda said: > Gutenberg could do that by > adding to the list of file types volunteers can upload, > one for HTML formated especially for MOBI conversion > (for those who do not have converters); > and one for MOBI (for those that do). unlike robert, i do understand what you're saying here... but, just to be clear, you got your "those who do not" and "those who do" mixed up. but accidents happen. also, if volunteers submit an .html version that is friendly to .mobi conversion, then there's really no need to submit a .mobi version as well, since the conversion can be done automatically using the mobi-conversion-friendly .html... so there's just _one_ additional file being submitted... still, the obvious surface reaction to that is that it would create a whole bunch of extra work, both in the creation of the e-books and their maintenance (initially and long-term). even though that's an obvious reaction, it has much weight. but there is a more interesting and subtle twist underneath, one that points back to what i have been saying all along... (you knew that was coming, didn't you?) :+) specifically, there would be a huge benefit if the volunteers would upload .html files with a known underlying structure. so... what if volunteers _only_ uploaded the mobi-friendly .html? left their hand-crafted idiosyncratic .html on their hard-drive. could they do it? or would you lose your post-processors? they've been groomed to love their idiosyncratic versions... really, the ability to craft the output to your heart's desire is one of the big reasons post-processors do what they do. but the result -- .html files that are unique, like snowflakes -- means it is _impossible_ to do conversions library-wide... unless you perform the conversions using the .txt version... but that means you need to beef up the strength of those... _and_ ensure that they have the consistency that's needed... and thus we end up at what i have been saying all along... it doesn't matter how many times y'all do this little dance, you're gonna end up on my side of the argument in the end. even marcello, who resisted it -- with venom! -- for years, eventually had to relent, in order to get something to work. and if you woulda listened to me _originally,_ 7 years ago, you would have been way out ahead of the curve, so that when things like the kindle came along, you would've been ready and waiting to step into the place project gutenberg _deserves_... instead, you're still scrambling for a solution. -bowerbird

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Nay Sayers
by John Redmond 16 Dec '10

16 Dec '10

"There are certainly a lot of "nay sayers" on this list, who will say nay to just about any new format proposal, but they don't really run everything, and if you send a new format to Greg Newby or myself, we'll give it a try at least 99% of the time." I have been following the discussion of the commercialisation of PG text, and these words have finally moved me to respond: I introduced myself to this group earlier this year, offering to become involved in styling some of the files. At the time, I had difficulty in deciding whether or not I was welcome and on one occasion I was certainly convinced that I was being patronised (yes, it was YOU, BB). I was not encouraged, but I was not deterred, either. And now suddenly the tenor of the discussions seems to have changed in light of the ereaders and the associated commercialism. I appreciate that PG wishes, quite rightly, to be accessible to all, including those who do not have the latest hardware or ereader, and that text versions are de rigeur. But there is suddenly a market for spiffed-up versions of the texts. And the money-spinners are happy to charge for them. Surely the time has come for PG to offer at least some of the books in sexier formats. EPub seems suddenly to be inevitable, though I don't like it much, and I would much prefer to distribute PDF documents. But they are inevitably bulkier! So where am I going with this. I have some Tcl scripts that will adapt existing PG text files to PDF and ePub/XHTML. And I am sure that there are many other script systems that will do the same sort of thing (yes, BB, I know about z.m.l). If something is not tried, the world will be using commercial files that would not exist if it were not for PG. And paying for them! As demonstration, look at my site (www.limpidsoft.com) where I have various versions of some 20 classics. Not mentioned on the main page, however, is a set of versions of Ivanhoe: www.limpidsoft.com/new/ivanhoe-a4.pdf www.limpidsoft.com/new/ivanhoe-a5.pdf www.limpidsoft.com/new/ivanhoe.html www.limpidsoft.com/new/ivanhoe.txt (the marked-up version) I mention this book because it demanded that I add dropcaps and notes (footnotes for PDF and endnotes for XHTML) to the scripts. The notes made processing this book significantly more complex than most of the other books. So there you are! The scripts are still in flux, but the results look encouraging. Anyone interested? John Redmond

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Re: Nay Sayers
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 Dec '10

16 Dec '10

john redmond said: > and on one occasion I was certainly convinced that > I was being patronised (yes, it was YOU, BB). are you talking to me? because i reviewed the posts, and i could see any place where what i said could be accurately described as being "patronising"... (for those people who want to review the thread yourself, the subject was "getting involved", from december of 2009, commencing on december 14, one year and one day ago.) on the 26th of december, i asked you some hard questions, john, and you never responded... oh well, such is life, eh? and, from the vantage point of a year later, you're merely another xml/tei "true believer" who came -- and went -- without doing anything... and now here you come again... > (yes, BB, I know about z.m.l) oh do you now? then how about some feedback on this: > http://z-m-l.com/walha/walha.pdf that was auto-generated from this: > http://z-m-l.com/walha/walha.zml and here's the .html that was auto-generated: > http://z-m-l.com/walha/walha.html i'd also be willing to give feedback on your ivanhoe stuff. if you want any, that is. are you tough enough to take it? *** alex said: > The markup kinda reminds me of SiSU, > which I also thought was pretty cool. the links above take you to my versions of the new book by cory doctorow. cory used sisu to create his e-versions, so you can go to his site and get the output created by sisu, and compare it to mine. i believe most people will like mine. sisu is also more difficult when it comes to creating the master. which isn't to say that sisu is a bad system. it's just not the best. but you don't have to trust me... go and take a look for yourself, and then come back here and discuss your findings with me. ok? -bowerbird

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Re: Amazon charging for PG books
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 15 Dec '10

15 Dec '10

jim said: > Seems to me that a human-generated HTML > *is* a non-trivial derivative work > since the choice of HTML coding > *is* a human artistic effort chosen > to make the software run well > on one or more ebook readers > and/or HTML browsers, and as such > *is* creative derivative work worthy of copyright. > IE I am arguing that writing HTML is writing "software" > and is not just "printer's art." it might seem that way to you... but precedent sides against you. legally, a ruling has been issued; markup is sweat, not authorship... as for d.r.m., amazon lets publishers decide on that matter for themselves. but isn't that point moot if the e-books are constantly freely available from p.g.? i understand the importance of fighting the symbolic battle, but there's no use in wasting ammunition senselessly, is there? -bowerbird

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a tip of a cap to the man
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 11 Dec '10

11 Dec '10

it's december 10th, which i seem to remember is the birthday of michael hart's father, who is the man behind the man behind project gutenberg. so here's a tip of a cap to the shakespeare scholar. -bowerbird

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Re: Amazon charging for PG books
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 11 Dec '10

11 Dec '10

oh my goodness, where have you been, al? this sure ain't news. and newby wonders if it's "ethical". spare me the deliberations. here's the thing: project gutenberg could have set itself up as a publisher with amazon, and sold its e-books for whatever it wants to charge, but project gutenberg decided not to do that. you could've also dictated that every page of every one of the books was available under amazon's "look inside this book" functionality. but again, you decided not to go that route. was that a good decision? heck no, it was a _stupid_ decision... but that's the decision that project gutenberg made. so live with it, and live with the consequences... and tell your contributors that _they_ need to live with it too... heck, jim even came here _begging_ you to make things better... he even did the work for you, and mounted the solution himself. but his efforts were ignored. you might wanna read this recent article from time magazine: > http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/printout/0,29239,2032304_2032746… the takeaway sentence is this: > It turns out that there is something that can compete with free: easy. of course, _free_and_easy_ tops everything. but you opted out of that. and now you want to whine. -bowerbird

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Free Speech, eBook Readers, and the Nobel Peace Prize
by Jim Adcock 11 Dec '10

11 Dec '10

As we complain about the Mickey Mouse copyright laws, perhaps it is time to take a moment to reflect on Free Speech, the Nobel Peace Prize, and where our beloved eBook readers are coming from: Kindle: China Nook: China Kobo: Taiwan iPad: China Samsung Galaxy Tab: Korea Sony 505: China So, most of our "freedom readers" are coming from military dictatorships where the people actually making these products do not have a choice of what they can say nor what they can read. Not sure what to do about it--given that our press has taboos that they cannot or will not talk about nowadays either.

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How are the ebook files generated?
by Paul Flo Williams 08 Dec '10

08 Dec '10

I've nearly finished producing my first text for PG and, in order to test the HTML, I've been viewing it in Firefox and also using kindlegen to convert it to Mobipocket format, which I'm then using a Kindle to view. I've been hunting for details of the current conversion process on the Wiki, and haven't come across any concrete information about how PG does the conversions. Could anyone please point me to the documents or software that are used?

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Re: Amazon charging for PG books
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 08 Dec '10

08 Dec '10

the washington post article said: > Even though it’s not illegal, Project Gutenberg > Literary Archive Foundation chief executive Greg Newby > finds the practice unethical. He would like to see Amazon > offer Project Gutenberg texts at no cost and DRM-free. if greg _really_ wants that, he could make it happen, easily, by setting up project gutenberg as a publisher who distributes its e-books through amazon, because publishers set the price, and can turn off amazon d.r.m. and until p.g. does that, other rogue re-publishers will continue to take advantage of the door p.g. left open... *** here's someone who took jim's "magic catalog" and turned it into a for-sale e-book, albeit for just $.99... > http://www.amazon.com/Download-Gutenberg-CATALOG-download-ebook/dp/B004BDOW… there are also versions for feedbooks and mobileread. *** and even though i thought the tone was a bit off, the point behind the article was a rather good one, in the sense that kindle owners do need to be told -- directly, and perhaps often -- they can populate their machines with content not bought from amazon. *** walter said: > It only proves that ease of access > and a nice representation are valued > over just having the content available that's right, as far as it goes, just as long as we recognize the caveat that many of these rogue re-publishers do _not_ create books that have "a nice representation". they just take whatever was there, with absolutely no concern at all for the quality of the product. *** walter said: > It only proves that ease of access > and a nice representation are > valued over just having the content > available in archaic ASCII-formats. kudos to walter for trying to smuggle in a political point. but ascii is _not_ "archaic". it's the 128 lower bits of utf-8. and utf-16. and all the other various older encodings too. walter was trying to make you think something like .html is superior. i will agree that an .html book _does_ look nice, at least if you are viewing it with a browser or some other piece of software that understands how to render that .html. (otherwise, an .html-book is _painful_ to read, lacking that.) but it's important to remember that that .html itself is _also_ comprised mainly of the lower 128 bits that walter claims are "archaic". so obviously he's not telling us the _whole_ truth... it's also tremendously meaningful and relevant and important to understand that -- if you route the p.g, ascii-format through a viewer-program that understands how to render that format -- you will _also_ get a book that looks nice. and one that can have just as much power -- or even more -- than an .html book has... indeed, the iphone app "eucalyptus" takes exactly that approach. and its output looks just as good as an .html-book or an .epub... so it's simply not true -- at all -- that ascii is "archaic", no sir. it _is_ unfortunate that project gutenberg has never seen fit to distribute a viewer-program that makes its plain-text format look nice and be powerful. but that's not the fault of the format. -bowerbird

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Re: choke-points on the internet
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 08 Dec '10

08 Dec '10

keith, i don't think that you fully understand that the u.s.a. has a 234-year tradition of free speech. that's our rock. that's what they teach in schools. a good american is one who questions authority. that might not be the case with a good german, but project gutenberg was born here in america. so the fact that our politicians are now using the power of their office and the power of law to shut down somebody who is practicing what we preach, well, that's the kind of thing that we take seriously, because it's bold and brazen in-our-faces hypocrisy. so that's the "explanation", but let me quickly add i don't feel any need to give you "an explanation". if you don't want to read my posts, i'm sure that someone here can tell you how to do a kill-file... -bowerbird

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