- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

one of the points we've been discussing
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 31 Oct '12

31 Oct '12

walt said: > It might be considered broken, I suppose, > if someone were to take PG HTML > and run their own conversion on it, so we agree that it is broken if someone were to do that... > It might be considered broken, I suppose, > if someone were to take PG HTML > and run their own conversion on it, > in ignorance of PG's approach. dear, i guess "in ignorance of p.g.'s approach" means "if they don't know that p.g. does this thing incorrectly". > Or if they were to take PG HTML > and use it directly in an ebook reader. again, again, we agree that it's broken if someone were to go and do _that_... > But if they take our epub output they'll be just fine, > because our epub output won't say "@media handheld" > once epubmaker gets done with it. so because an error introduced early in the process eventually gets deleted later in the process, if it goes that way, and gets that far, the error is not wrong? > And if they are running their own > conversions of PG books they should do so > with some knowledge of what they look like. since p.g. books -- including d.p. books -- are not produced with any dependable consistency, it is simply impossible to accrue such knowledge. which is one of the points we've been discussing on this listserve for the last 9 years i've been here. *** first it was .html proper which boasted that it would make content "reflowable" to any device out there... then, when that proved not to be true, the technocrats gave us c.s.s., which would make good on the promise. now, when c.s.s. has also proven not to be the answer, _media_queries_ are now the new "new and improved". and it all just keeps getting more and more complex. -bowerbird

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get rid of all that smaller/bigger presentation cruft
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '12

30 Oct '12

vis-a-vis the "html best practices" thread going on at d.p., i thought i'd show don (and y'all) how i'd do that title-page, mostly just because i want to encourage use of jsbin.com... > http://jsbin.com/apokiv/5/edit yes, yes, i'd agree that it doesn't look _quite_ as nice as the other microtagged version, but i love the simplicity. -bowerbird

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even more you don't understand
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '12

30 Oct '12

greg said: > Your love is accepted and reciprocated. yeah, well, no... because the gifts that i chose to _give_ you, way back in 2004 and 2005, still sit -- unclaimed -- where i put 'em: > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/zml_talk/files/ and thus, that was the end of that. besides, it was never really about _me_ per se... > http://zenmagiclove.com/misc/give.jpg i was merely trying to show _you_ how you could maximize the potential of what _you_ were doing. to get more from what you were _already_ doing... but you were -- and are -- unable to understand. -bowerbird

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so much you don't understand
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '12

30 Oct '12

greg said: > 1. I (still) don't think apps is our bailiwick and you are (still) creating your own reality. and one great thing about doing that is that you'll _never_ get disconfirming information. > 2. You seem to overestimate how closely > I read what you write i'm constantly surprised any time you read what i write. because my estimate is that you've read nothing at all... or maybe it's just that nothing has penetrated... ;+) but again, that's just you creating your own reality. > 3. If you want to write an app, please do. that has always been your response. besides being _way_ "too late" now, it was always "too little" in addition. i'm willing (or at least, i _was_, in the past) to code programs _for_project_gutenberg_, with a special emphasis on the _for_ word, but if you aren't going to actually use them, and call them your own, and promote them, there is no point in me carrying that banner. if you don't care about your users enough to do any more on their behalf... why should i? > Once it's in the itunes store > or android marketplace, > of course I'll be happy to link to it & > carry an announcement in the monthly newsletter you spurn my offer of a gift of love and tell me to go start hooking in the street and you will be happy to pimp me out? oh, greg, there is so much you don't understand... -bowerbird

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PG's home page
by Al Haines 30 Oct '12

30 Oct '12

IMO, PG's home page should be neutral territory. It should not be a home for dueling reviews/arguments. Gutvol-d has enough, and usually more than enough, of the latter. For user reviews/experiences, there should/could be a link to them elsewhere on PG's home page, perhaps as articles linked from the "MobileReader Devices How-To" page, or the PG Wiki page (at the bottom of PG's home page), something like the "Volunteers' Voices" on the FAQ page. Al

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Re: [gutvol-d] why isn't p.g. being user-friendly?
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '12

30 Oct '12

greg said: > I can think of some details that matter good. that's important. > (i.e., preventing emailing books to strangers; that's an understandable concern, of course, that is why amazon makes a customer _whitelist_ any address that e-mails content to their account. meaning that's nothing you'd need to worry about. > books that are too big for email). again, an understandable concern. i don't recall amazon's size-limit, but i'd think it would handle the text for any single e-book. but whatever the size-limit is, i'm sure that you could code the workflow to respect it... > The readingroo.ms site is, as always, available > for anyone wanting to do experimentation. i wouldn't think this needs much "experimentation". if marcello doesn't know how to do it, and nobody else does, off the top of their head, i'll research it. but once the methodology is know, p.g. can use it, without having to pilot-test it on some sand-box... > Slightly related, there was a fellow > who was interested in a PG app. > It would do that sort of thing... > but I don't expect to see a PG app anytime soon. perhaps your expectations are creating your reality. p.g. could have had a fleet of apps, years back, if you had said that you would actually employ them. heck, i even had one coded, and ready for you to pick up and use, and you completely ignored it... > We did a pair of apps where I work > (one for idevices, one for android), and > they take constant care & feeding to maintain. i think i have proven my longevity on this list... -bowerbird

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greg, i'm a little disappointed in that response
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '12

30 Oct '12

greg said: > I edited a disclaimer at the top of the review, > ... > and, mentioned on the main page that > it's the Webmaster's review, > not Project Gutenberg's review. well, gee. i'm a little disappointed in you, greg. i mean, i tell don not to get his knickers in a twist, because greg will obviously swoop in and fix this... and then, greg, you stumble in with this non-fix... only one part of the complaints was that p.g. wasn't sufficiently distanced from this "review". the _main_ complaint, though, was a reaction that the "review" itself is "not what p.g. does". and the more-relevant sub-complaint is that the "review" doesn't seem to be very balanced. *** anyway... again, on-going posting of this so-called "review" isn't gonna mean the end of the world. people get tech advice everywhere, so this is just one more bit. we have to assume p.g. end-users have intelligence, and thus will recognize this rant for the rant that it is. just to put this in perspective... but this isn't good tech advice, not by a long shot, and people will recognize that it's primarily spite, so it won't exert much effect, other than to make _p.g._ look kinda bad. yes, that's right; it backfires. the main point is that it's hard to load in content. but first there's a whole paragraph of bitching that ultimately ends with "turn the machine face-down if you don't want to see ads", which is good advice, but also already quite obvious to thinking people... so eliminate that bitching paragraph, and condense the advice down to a single sentence as i just put it. but the worst part is yet to come. the piece leads off with "don't buy the kindle fire". ok, great, i'm glad we got _that_ out of the way... yet in the closing section which is given the heading of "to read project gutenberg e-books on your kindle fire", the steps are: > 1. don't buy a kindle fire. seems to be a bit out of place, given the heading, eh? besides, it's a bit repetitive, not? > 2. if you already bought a kindle fire, return it. again, the section is _supposed_to_be_ about how to download p.g. e-books to your kindle fire, am i right? so this second point seems not to be relevant. right? and by now, even the repetition is getting repetitive. > 3. if you can't return it, e-mail yourself the e-book. well, ok, we note the continuing assertion of the theme. but at least we finally get to the purpose of the section. now, the "review" doesn't state it as plainly as i did, but the _act_ is to e-mail the e-book to your kindle account. this option -- to put non-amazon stuff on your kindle by e-mailing it to an address (for your account) that is furnished, by amazon, for free -- has been available to people within the kindle infrastructure for a while now. so here's my question: if an e-book can be e-mailed to an end-user's kindle account, why doesn't p.g. do that? give people a button that collects their e-mail address then automatically e-mails the e-book to that address. seems to me that _project_gutenberg needs to make it easy for us to put p.g. e-books on our kindle accounts. of course, then marcello won't have stuff to bitch about. -bowerbird

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why isn't p.g. being user-friendly?
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '12

30 Oct '12

greg, you still haven't answered my question. why doesn't p.g. offer to people the ability to request that a p.g. e-book be e-mailed to their kindle account? seems to me that would be user-friendly... if you don't know how to do this technically, i'd guess that someone here can probably help you figure it out. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] don't fight human nature
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 29 Oct '12

29 Oct '12

mjit raindancerstahl said: > Correction: none look as good > *to Passey* as /Passey/ "look right. i'm guessing that's what lee meant... but i don't know for sure, because i didn't read the post, nor am i gonna. moreover, it's neither here nor there, as when i made a reference to "looks right", both don and i were using the phrase to mean that _"it_resembles_the_pagescan"._ so it has nothing to do with a "preference". thus, although there might be some room to wiggle on whether the "resemblance" is close enough to _be_ "close enough" or not, the issue is more objective than subjective... so no, i wouldn't expect that there would be lots of variance in whether it "looked right". *** so either lee was _confused_, or else he was trying to confuse _you_. i used to _wonder_ which of these two things it was, with lee, because this same question always came up. it helps to know that lee is a lawyer. and it is in the mentality of _many_ lawyers, and then further reinforced by their training, that they don't care if something is pertinent, or relevant, to the topic that's being discussed. no, what they care about is saying _something_ in a way that will make you _agree_ with them. doesn't matter if it makes sense, or is germane. just matters whether it will be "convincing"... it's all about swaying the jury. doesn't matter if it's true, or just confuses you, as long as it works as a "counter", they'll use it. this is one main reason real people hate lawyers, and why truth-seekers hold lawyers in contempt. because lawyers hold _truth_ in contempt. so, was i ever able to answer the question about whether lee was confusing people _on_purpose,_ or whether he himself is the one who's confused? nope, not really. i was leaning toward the answer that he himself doesn't know which it is, and doesn't even care. so i decided that i too didn't care which it was... either way, it's a waste of time to talk with him, if you're trying to get to the bottom of a matter. which is why lee is now in my kill-filter. in case you were wondering... ;+) -bowerbird

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Books in Browsers Conference at Internet Archive
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 29 Oct '12

29 Oct '12

alex said; > The event is being livestreamed at http://toc.oreilly.com > You may find this interesting. if anyone finds anything from this conference interesting -- anything at all, _anything_, even _mildly_ interesting -- do please let us know what it is, and why it's interesting... because i've been following that circle of people for years, and i am singularly unimpressed. i know, shocking, ain't it? frontchannel or back, doesn't matter. just let me know, ok? anything. even mildly. -bowerbird p.s. i offered my corrected text for "huck" to peter brantley. i'll let you know what he says...

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