- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

good news on the doorstep
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Sep '09

18 Sep '09

good news on the doorstep. there's now a new listserve for "civil" p.g. volunteers. that's right, no need to put up with the rudeness of this list. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PG_vol_lounge/message/1 here's the introduction, from founder joyce wilson: > Welcome to the Project Gutenberg volunteer lounge! > This list is intended to provide a friendly, supportive, > and civil forum for PG volunteers. I hope it will provide > a sense of community connection for those of us > whose PG volunteer jobs can seem kind of isolated. > Problem-solve, discuss, ask questions, share good news, > brag on yourself and others, liberally apply congratulations > and back-pats, chit-chat about stuff. But don't be a jerk, > or you'll be removed from the list. so, now if you're feeling a need for some liberally-applied congratulations and back-pats, or some shared good news, without jerks pestering you, you'll know exactly where to go. thanks for provided this much-needed service, joyce! -bowerbird

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Re: In search of a more-vanilla vanilla TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Sep '09

17 Sep '09

jim said: > So the “solution” is that all readers should > buy an iphone and run “eucalyptus” no. the "solution" is to understand that a viewer-program like eucalyptus can be programmed on _any_ platform, designed to take the project gutenberg plain-text files and display them in a beautiful (and powerful) manner. the "solution" is not to debunk that plain-text format -- which is what you seem to be wanting to do here -- and _certainly_ not invent a new cockamamie format, but rather to patch the small inconsistency problems that haunt the library so that the plain-text files are dependable and reliable in terms of delivering beauty. > I can’t disagree with that – it IS relatively trivial > to render attractive text if one knows one is > rendering to only one particular machine. have you ever done any programming, jim? and, in particular, have you ever done e-book coding? even though eucalyptus is "rendering to only one particular machine", it allows the end-user to pick the font-size, which requires rewrapping the text. in addition, many apps let you switch to landscape, which means you must code for two screen-sizes... it's not as easy as you make it sound to make an app, even if it's just "for one particular machine". however, once you've made such an app, it's not that difficult to port it to another machine, or to another language, or to hack it for some specific purpose you only need today, or to modify it to fit your own personal preferences, or... but the important thing to remember as far as this thread is that the "vanilla" .txt format used by project gutenberg is extremely close to being totally sufficient as a file-format. it just needs to have a few ambiguous situations cleaned up, and then the whole library needs to undergo quality control because there are some rather glaring inconsistencies there. but we don't need a new format... never have... never will... -bowerbird

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Re: z.m.l. can do what you want
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Sep '09

17 Sep '09

jim, i'm losing patience with you, quickly, i warn you. *** jim said: > I invite the other readers to compare > the z.m.l. results for “Scrooge” at: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vlconvert.html first, the file at that address is volatile, depending on which .html conversion was last made via on button-click on the page which is located over at: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vl3.pl so, to ensure you've got "scrooge" at the address listed above, click on that button. (that'll be the "a christmas carol" button.) > I invite the other readers to compare > the z.m.l results for “Scrooge” at: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vlconvert.html > to the PG TEI results for “My Antonia” at: > http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19810/19810-pdf.pdf ok, do you understand that is comparing a converted .html file to a converted .pdf? if you want to compare, compare .html to .html, and .pdf to .pdf, because that makes some sense. oh, and by the way, picking "my antonia" was not a wise move, because i've done extensive research work on that particular digitization. so if you want me to onslaught it at you, let me know. > However, I will point out that neither markup has > the proper support necessary to render > correct EPUB nor MOBI file formats. show me the "proper" markup to accomplish the mobi, and i will edit the template so you can get that markup. then have the .tei guys do what they would need to do. because i'd love to see the mobi they get from their .tei. -bowerbird

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"PG volunteer lounge" list at Yahoo Groups
by Joyce Wilson 17 Sep '09

17 Sep '09

In the spirit of the world-famous DP spa, there is now a "Project Gutenberg volunteer lounge" list at Yahoo Groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PG_vol_lounge/ Description: A friendly, supportive, and civil forum for Project Gutenberg volunteers. Will be moderated as needed to keep it that way. Group Email Addresses: Post message: PG_vol_lounge(a)yahoogroups.com Subscribe: PG_vol_lounge-subscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: PG_vol_lounge-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com List owner: PG_vol_lounge-owner(a)yahoogroups.com

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Ebook 30000! And some sort of catalog milestone
by Joyce Wilson 16 Sep '09

16 Sep '09

I saw today that ebook 30000 has been posted! Congratulations! And in other (more self-serving) good news, I see we have 14271 books with no subjects in their bib records and 12062 with no LoCC in their bib records, so I guess it's no longer the case that "more than half of our books don't have subject information added" and "more than one half of our books don't have LoC info" as the "Help on Bibliographic Record Page" says. : -) Joyce Wilson PG Cataloging Team

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david and marcello
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 Sep '09

16 Sep '09

both david starner and marcello are relegated to my spam folder, but it's nice to see them fighting. marcello has convinced himself that pgtei is the next big thing, and has been ever since 2001... unfortunately for mr. marcello, he hasn't persuaded d.p. people. they tried .tei, and ran screaming from the scene due to the stench. -bowerbird

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Re: In search of a more-vanilla vanilla TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 Sep '09

16 Sep '09

greg wants the distributed proofreaders to jump through all kinds of _unnecessarily_ difficult hoops, just so that project gutenberg can _supposedly_ get the benefits that i've already _proven_ can be obtained from the .txt format. greg went to library school. he's supposed to be smart. -bowerbird

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Re: In search of a more-vanilla vanilla TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 Sep '09

16 Sep '09

jim said: > You make my point for me. yes, i do, jim. and i make your point _much_better_ than you do, because i don't do the sabotage thing to it first. > When one relies on automagical tools to try to > recreate semantic information discarded by > the PG TXT representation, more or less often > one ends up with something that looks like sh*t – > your word not mine. actually, i got the word from the dictionary, so you should feel free to use it without me. your tools are neither "auto" nor "magical" enough. it is only when you've improved them to the point that they cannot be improved any more that you earn the right to bitch about what others are doing. > When the results break one is told > “Oh you did it wrong, you should > have done something else instead.” i didn't say "you did it wrong" as some kind of mystical power intended to make you go away. i said that you did it wrong because you did it wrong. it ends up that, with the right tool, and if you do it right, the p.g. e-text format works perfectly well, or at least it _can_, if the whitewashers really did what they say they do. and sometimes they do. for instance, if you would have taken your "hamlet" text from the newest version in the library, and put it into my unwrap site listed above, you'll see that it works just fine. so there is no _shortcoming_ of the p.g. plain-text format that needs to be "overcome". there are only some _flaws_ -- a portion of which seem to be intentionally inflicted -- which need to be corrected, so that the format can shine... > once one relies on human intervention to “fix” the problem > when a particular algorithm breaks, then one does not have > an automatic algorithm. i agree. but that's not what is at issue here. > Ultimately what one should do if one wants to “get it right” > is to abandon attempts at automagical tools which work > sometimes and end up looking like sh*t other times > and instead take the PG TXT file, take the original page scans, > look at the page scans to figure out where the PG TXT files > gratuitously entered line breaks where the author didn’t > intend line breaks, and take them back out. see, jim, here's where you get things half-right-but-kinda-wrong. you just haven't thought through these things well enough so that you can explain them clearly, so it comes out in this mumbo-jumbo. > After the gratuitous page breaks are taken back out > (the work of a few days – trust me on this!) again, you're severely unclear here. (and please, please, please, if anyone thinks that jim _is_ being "clear", do jump in and say so and help provide an explanation.) > then one can either, if one has a machine, such as a teletype, > incapable of reflow, run the now gratuitous-line-break free > TXT back through a simple unambiguous algorithm to insert > a line break at the appropriate point for your machine ok, here's a relatively straightforward description of the process. but, really, jim, there's no need for it. we programmers _know_ how to do this. it's not difficult. the guy who coded "eucalyptus" did a fine job on doing this, and he is using the p.g. text-files, so they don't really present the insurmountable problem you think... > Or tolerate slightly ugly word spacing on machines that > force right justify (sigh.) Better yet, we should ask our > technologist friends to include not only reflow but also > automatic hyphenation routines in our machines. again, not to beat a dead horse, but eucalyptus does ragged-right or justification, whichever the user prefers, and hyphenation too, so everything you're asking for has already been done at least once. rather than harping about the format -- which does just peachy, thank you very much -- you need to complain about the coders who are not giving you the type of tools you would like to have... > Is it too much, for example, to ask PG to provide the option > to the rare user who actually WANTS line breaks at char 72, > or for that matter actually wants line breaks at char 20, > is it too much to ask PG to provide a filter to insert such > “gratuitous” line breaks? Consider: PG *already* provides > literally 40 different such filter programs to help people > with various strange obscure legacy machines. more sloppy thinking, jim. what do you really _mean_ when you say "provide the option" or "provide a filter"? i take it to mean "give your users a tool that does that". and if you started saying it that way, you'd come to realize that your beef is not with the p.g. text-file format at all, but rather the fact that p.g. isn't supplying users with the tools we need... -bowerbird

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re: In search of a more-vanilla vanilla TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 Sep '09

16 Sep '09

jim said: > Which is a "good" submission format for submitting a > transcription of Shakespeare to be read on a cellphone, > PG txt format, or HTML? > Answer: Neither file format works worth a dang for > specifying Shakespeare to be read on cellphones. > Yet both file formats contain the lists of the words. again, jim, you've come up with the wrong answer... as i've said, repeatedly, the iphone app "eucalyptus" does a great job of rendering the p.g. e-texts in a way that makes them quite beautiful, according to reviewers, and i agree, for the most part. (it ends up eucalyptus is kind of flawed as an e-book program when it comes to some capabilities that i consider vital, such as _search_. but in terms of rendering the pages, it does that nicely.) format wonks think the format needs to describe beauty... it's far better, however, for a viewer-application to elicit it. because in the end, everything really depends on the viewer. > Here's a brief excerpt from Dove: > "'Go?'" he wondered. "Go when, go where?" well, that's on page 227 of this version in google. > "And proceed to my business under your eyes?" > "Oh dear no -- we shall go." > "'Go?'" he wondered. "Go when, go where?" > " In a day or two -- straight home. Aunt Maud wishes it now." http://books.google.com/books?id=B9AOAAAAIAAJ&client=safari&pg=PA227& ci=89%2C537%2C776%2C177&source=bookclip" http://books.google.com/books?id=B9AOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA227&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en& sig=ACfU3U0L1tXMRlU83MbayfHNmmTl27CrXw&ci=89%2C537%2C776%2C177&edge=0"/ but i don't see anything special about that, anything that would be missed or lost in the plain-text version. > And another one: > She particularly likes you. ok, that's on page 18. the "you" is italicized, so you should have put underscores around it, so the viewer knows it's emphasized. it's also embedded in dialog, so the way you have pulled it out -- as if it was a paragraph by itself -- is rather misleading here. again, if you purposely disfigure the plain-text version, then yes, it will be inferior. your solution is to stop disfiguring it... -bowerbird

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Re: z.m.l. can do what you want
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 Sep '09

16 Sep '09

gardner said: > I know BB talks a good deal about ZML > and it sounds pretty cool wow, that almost sounds like it could be a compliment. > but I've googled till my fingers bleed and > I cannot tell for sure what exact ZML he has in mind. oh, you just should have asked me, gardner. google can't find everything, especially if something ain't all that concerned with being found by google... on the other hand, it's pretty easy to remember it: > http://z-m-l.com and oh yeah, that stands for "zen markup language". *** at the site, click "see some examples." which takes you to: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vl3.pl you've come to a page that has filename links on the left, and then a respective button for each one of those files... let's say you click the link for the top file -- test-suite.zml: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/test-suite.zml make sure to click the text link -- don't click the button yet. the file you're viewing -- the test-suite for project gutenberg -- has been "marked up" with z.m.l. -- zen markup language. (z.m.l. is "zen", so you won't actually "see" any markup, at least not any anglebrackets with tags inside of them. but you'll see that it's formatted regularly; that's z.m.l.) i've appended the topmost lines from that file -- the cover page and some lines from the contents -- to this post. once again, this is the .zml file... *** now click the "back" button to go back to this page: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vl3.pl this time, click on the "test-suite" button on the right side. this will perform the conversion of the .zml file into .html, and take you to the resultant .html file right on the web... text colors are used to signify different structural elements. you can save this .html to your own machine to examine it. or put it side-by-side with the .zml file to see the conversion. this .html, with its c.s.s., certainly won't be your cup-of-tea, but changing the c.s.s. is a mere matter of template editing. it validates as is, to .html 4.01, which might work for kindle, or might not, i haven't done any checking on that specifically, but again, we modify the conversion by editing the template. i pointed you to the test-suite first, because reading it will give you an introduction to the overall philosophy of it all... also, the second file is "the 11 rules of z.m.l.", which might also give you a good orientation, even if the file is quite old. (but as i'm reluctant to tie anything down, it's not outdated.) i can also turn out a mean .pdf, with that conversion routine, and since you can size the .pdf page (and all other variables, like font, fontsize, leading, margins, etc.) however you want, that ends up being quite usable on a fixed-size e-ink screen. so we have .html (important in mounting a web version), and .pdf (for those situations where it's the user-chosen solution), but the best part of all is that zml-viewers are easy to program. i've coded them in basic and perl, and python should be simple. it's very fundamental coding, so it'll be portable to any language. it also facilitates open-source efforts, because it's easy to hack... zml-viewer-programs turn the .zml file into a beautiful e-book, customized to the user's preference, and offering a wide variety of high-functionality capabilities that make a .zml file powerful. this combination of beauty and power make z.m.l. hard to beat. -bowerbird p.s. the top of the test-suite file goes like this: the test-suite for project gutenberg a document containing the full range of features found in project gutenberg e-texts by bowerbird intelligentleman greetings, earthling... this is an e-text brought to you by project gutenberg, a 35-year-old volunteer effort to put literature online. please see the web-site for news and information on usage conditions for e-texts, volunteering, and more... http://www.gutenberg.org table of contents the test-suite for project gutenberg table of contents dedication chapter 1 -- welcome aboard chapter 2 -- the sections of the book chapter 3 -- text "styling"

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