- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 10, Issue 28
by Lee Passey 17 May '05

17 May '05

On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Andrew Sly wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Lee Passey wrote: > > > One of the problems with marking the text with a class that > > describes the presentation (aside from the fact that it's not > > structural) is that it implies a presentation which may not > > actually be correct. Note that Andrew does not say that this text > > is to be right aligned, but "aligned to be close to the right > > margin." Consider the last example given (modified to be a generic > > block so as to not imply "paragraphness"): > > > > <div class="dateheader" >> HERCULES ROBINSON.<br/> >> S.J.P. KRUGER.<br/> >> S.J. DU TOIT.<br/> >> N.J. SMIT.</div> > > > > In this particular case, we don't want the text to be > > right-aligned, we want it to be left-aligned, but shifted > > significantly out towards the right margin. > > > > In the pirate community I have seen these types of blocks > > identified as being of type "headfoot", presumably because it is > > primarily used for headers and footers of correspondence. I also > > know that TEI has an element for this type of thing (although the > > precise name escapes me at the moment, and I'm far to lazy to go > > look it up); assuming that the element name is "signature", you > > could use a class name, for example, of "TEI_signature", indicating > > that if it were a TEI element it would be the "signature" element. > > > > More important than the actual class name used is the notion that > > it ought to be the same as everyone else uses, so that some > > uniformity of naming is achieved. Myself, I'd probably opt for > > "headfoot", not because it's the best or most descriptive, but > > simply because it seems to have some currency. > > > > Now a quick word about the use of the <p> element. > > > > Despite what many people seem to think, the <p> element is _not_ a > > generic block element, it is to be used to indicate paragraphs. > > Clearly the aforementioned signature block is not a paragraph, and > > should not be identified as one, particulaly as there already is in > > common use an element designed _to be_ a generic block element: > > <div>. > > > > Personally, when I encounter a class name like "dateheader" which > > is obviously intended to move text near the right margin but > > maintain left alignment, I change the CSS definition to remove the > > alignment attribute, and instead add the style "margin-left:65%". > > This moves the block well to the right-side of the viewport, but > > also scales well when the window is resized. > > > > I also like my paragraphs to be indented, so my default CSS > > includes "p { text-indent:3em }". Now if you combine these two > > styles, and make the aforementioned signature block a <p> element, > > you would get something like this (imagine the whole block being > > moved 2/3 of the way across the page: > > > > HERCULES ROBINSON. S.J.P. KRUGER. S.J. DU TOIT. N.J. SMIT. > > > > The answer to this problem is simple: if your English professor > > wouldn't call it a paragraph, use the <div> tag instead. > > First, a brief disclaimer. > > I would guess that at least 80% of the people who contribute texts > with html markup to PG do not agree with choices made the majority of > others who do so. > > So, rather than make some futile attemp to define a subset of "PG > HTML" it made sense to just recomend simplicity and markup that is > valid as per w3c standards. > > I've had to accept that despite some markup I disagree with by > others, endless conversations, such as can happen here on this list, > will do nothing to change it. Yes, but by the very nature of your original question, you have demonstrated that you are not one of those who have an irrational commitment to a particular syntax. You wanted to know if there was a better class name than "dateheader" for your particular usage. I quite liked Marcello's suggestion to make it TEI-like, which would be (using his example): <div class="TEI_opener"> Great Marlborough Street<br /> <div class="TEI_dateline">November 11, 1848</div> </div> <div class="TEI_salute">My dear Sir,</div> This may be a little more complex than you want to use, so you could just substitute "TEI_opener" for "dateheader" when it appears before the block, and "TEI_closer" when it appears after the block. For a list of correspondences between XHTML and TEI that I have been developing (it is clearly not complete) see http://www.passkeysoft.com/~lee/tei2xhtml.html. > ============== > > > Use of a <div> instead of a <p>: > > Your concerns make sense. However, I believe, the last time I > checked, that in xhtml 1.0 you are not allowed to have #PCData > directly within a div. That is, a div is intended to delimit a > section of the document, but its contents must still be in their own > block-level elements. A generic <p> still seems to be the obvious > choice in this scenario. This didn't seem right to me so I went out to W3C.org and checked out the XHTML 1.1 DTD. In fact, <div> can contain any %flow element, which includes just about everything -- including #PCDATA. You may have been confused by the changes to the <body> element which now can contain only %block elements. I stick to my original suggestion that <p> should only be used for paragraphs, and <div> should be used for any other generic block-level element for which some other element is not appropriate. > Right-aligning a list of names: > > Yes, you are very observant to see that for the list of names quoted > below, it is not a totally accurate realization to align its contents > to the right. However, I have not found a ideal way to handle a block > like this easily, and, with many other projects waiting, I would like > to get this done, without spending weeks messing around with markup > and styling (which is the amount of time it would take--and still end > up with a less-than-idealistic result). Have you tried not using the "text-align:right" attribute, and using the "margin-left:65%" attribute instead? I think you'll find it's exactly what you're looking for. > For comparison, I have another text which I have been trying to > prepare, very carefully, and precisely in regard to markup and > styling, which has been stalled for over a year now, and I just feel > bogged down whenever I approach it. I feel your pain :-). I'm nowhere near an expert on styling, so when I encounter a problem like this I try to mark up the text with as much structural precision as possible (using <div> and <span>) and then just hope that someone else will come along and figure out the presentation. > Thanks for listening, > Andrew

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Re: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Joshua Hutchinson 17 May '05

17 May '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "David Starner" <prosfilaes(a)gmail.com> > > I think it important to have a list where discussions beyond 1) and 2) > can be asked. We need to have a list where we can discuss the future > of Unicode in PG, and things like that. It can cause extended > arguments, but it can be checked politely, and those people who can't > take a hint that enough is enough can be blocked. But I would really > hate to limit the only place where indepth discussions on where PG is > going and should be going can be held. > I agree wholeheartedly with David. The topics under discussion have almost never been the problem. It is the person(s) involved in the discussions that has been the problem. Remove the problem, not the discussions. And we do need to have a wide range of topics. For instance, I'm working on TEI, which I think is of vital importance to the future of PG (some may disagree). Discussions of TEI lead naturally into discussions of Unicode, graphic image formats, CSS, and other markup formats. Josh

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Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection
by rvijay07 17 May '05

17 May '05

I believe that PG has started a trend. There is if I can say an explosion of sites with all different varieties of collections of ebooks/etexts. There is so much out there, is expected to exponentially grow and lead to information explosion (infact this is already happening). Discussions, opinions here are helpful in selecting the good ones and ignoring the rest. Vijay --- On Tue 05/17, Chuck MATTSEN < mattsen(a)arvig.net > wrote: From: Chuck MATTSEN [mailto: mattsen(a)arvig.net] To: rvijay07(a)myway.com, gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:30:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection On Tue, 17 May 2005 06:47:57 -0400 (EDT)<br>"rvijay07" <rvijay07(a)myway.com> typed:<br><br>> >From the site:<br>> It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive<br>> the widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit<br>> basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as<br>> long as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if<br>> JRBooksOnline.com were cited as the source for material originating<br>> at this site.<br>> <br>> http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ <br><br>A great site, I suppose, if one is looking for examples of Nazi/white<br>supremacist propaganda for study; otherwise, it's a big PASS.<br><br>-- <br>Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA<br>MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm<br>Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586<br>kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519<br> <br>Random Thought/Quote For This Message:<br> Respect must be earned, not commanded.<br> _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

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Another Collection
by rvijay07 17 May '05

17 May '05

>From the site: It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive the widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as long as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if JRBooksOnline.com were cited as the source for material originating at this site. http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

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Re: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Jonathan Ingram 17 May '05

17 May '05

--- David Starner <prosfilaes(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/16/05, N Wolcott <nwolcott(a)dsdial.net> wrote: > > Another tack would be to require all posts to be either a question about a > > volunteer work in progress or an answer to the question. > > > > Either or both of these might return the list to some of its previous > > utility. > > > > Some questions one might ask are 1)how long should it take to get > > copyrightclearance on my project? 2) Where can I find canned examples of > > css I can use in my book which has sidebars in it? and similar sort of > > stuff. We don't need to discuss the future of unicode, or the lack thereof. > > I think it important to have a list where discussions beyond 1) and 2) > can be asked. We need to have a list where we can discuss the future > of Unicode in PG, and things like that. It can cause extended > arguments, but it can be checked politely, and those people who can't > take a hint that enough is enough can be blocked. But I would really > hate to limit the only place where indepth discussions on where PG is > going and should be going can be held. I've seen very little productive discussion on this site in the time I've been signed up to it. In contrast, the DP forums are very active, and have seen a wide range of interesting (and in general polite) discussion on the future of DP material. Those of you who are not yet signed up to DP should come over and browse our archives. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Melissa Er-Raqabi 17 May '05

17 May '05

Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list implies? There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which seems not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? Can you please be quiet, PLEASE?

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Re: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors
by Season BubbleGirl 17 May '05

17 May '05

Book reviews? Can I write some? Season BubbleGirl Author of A Doggy Diary and the explosive autobiography coming soon. www.bubblegirl.net - where individuality truly shines! Music Mash, puzzles, scrabble, Aussie's Playing Up, jokes, free ebooks -----Original Message----- From: "Greg Newby"<gbnewby(a)pglaf.org> Sent: 05/17/2005 6:33:37 AM To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion"<gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:15:28PM -0700, Michael Dyck wrote: > Greg Newby wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:45:29PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > > > > > I don't read the newsletter at all because its too confusing. > > > > We've been seeking newsletter editors for a *long* time. > > Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated > automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled > by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. > Is there a job description somewhere? Alice Wood used to be the newsletter editor, for a year or so. Michael picked this task up again reluctantly. The ideal scenario is for him to send in some "founder's comments" to the Part I newsletter editor, but not to do the whole thing. The main activity of the newsletter editor is to produce a weekly newsletter (also a monthly, but that's just extracted from the prior month's weeklies). The schedule is for a draft to go out on Sunday or Monday, then the newsletter to be released noon Wednesday (all US Central Time). The specific features etc. are up to the editor. We have ongoing needs for announcements, requests, etc., but the rest is open: how-tos, book reviews, quotes, interviews, events... It would also be nice to have active management of our newsletter archives, too. Qualifications include: - excellent attention to detail - proficient in written English - able to interact well via email (periodic phone calls as needed) - available during the deadline "crunch" times - proficient in "plain text" formating - interest in literary works - able to accept input & suggestions from many constituents My estimate is this would start at 6-10 hours per week. The time commitment could shrink (due to better efficiency and some automation) or grow (due to greater involvement in PG activities, and further outreach). It's feasible for there to be a team doing this, or a "main" editor plus some backup editors. Inquiries or suggestions welcome! -- Greg _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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Re: [gutvol-d] re: feedback report on the opticbook3600
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 May '05

16 May '05

carlo said: > Are you sure that you have really tried it? i haven't tried it at all. never seen one of the scanners myself. i was just posting one of the problems that i've been told about. and most people solve the problem pretty easily, just by doing the flips in another program, so it's not a show-stopper, it is just a sign that the software quality lags the hardware quality. carlo, i think d.p. should take up a collection and buy you a copy of that version of abbyy finereader specialized for older books. you are the best person there in terms of being skilled enough to make an evaluation about whether abbyy's claims stand up... -bowerbird p.s. actually, i don't know why p.g. and/or d.p. hasn't already cut a deal with abbyy to be one of their major beta-testers, but i'm the black sheep around here, nobody listens to me...

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re: feedback report on the opticbook3600
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 May '05

16 May '05

robert said: > In practice, though, it doesn't catch > the outer half-centimeter of the glass anyway. thanks, robert, for getting that feedback from people from distributed proofreaders on the opticbook3600... the outer half-centimeter? that's cutting things very close, isn't it? :+) the point is, no other scanner does better today. > With an ordinary flatbed, the book it pretty much > held in place by its own weight, although you can get > better results by applying some pressure from above. and even when you _do_ apply some pressure from above to an ordinary flatbed, you will not get results that are as good as those you get from the opticbook3600, right? so this is the same point as above. > And you only have to reposition the book for every other page. > With the opticbook, you have to turn the book every page, and, > for the half of the book where the heavy side is hanging off the end, > you have to hold the book in position more physically than for > the usual flatbed configuration. ok, that's true. but you get a better scan. so this, too, is the same point as above. there is a problem with the software that comes with the 3600, in that it won't flip _half_ of the pages, which is what you want. you either have to flip _all_ of them, or _none_ of them, neither of which is a suitable option. so you need to do the image-flip in a separate program, after you've done the scanning. (you can also scan the odd pages in a separate pass from the even ones.) there are other shortcomings in the software; i can't remember what they are now; the hope is that they will be fixed over time. and when it comes to its hardware, the scanner shines. carlo had a web-page with a pair of scans, of the same picture, one from the opticbook3600, the other from his other scanner. the difference was quite striking. this is an excellent scanner. > If you have the money and want to have > another tool in your scanner arsenal, it's not a waste. > But it's not a magic bullet, either. whether or not it's worthwhile to buy the opticbook3600 if you already have another scanner might be questionable. depends on how much your time is worth, because you'll be spending it correcting of scannos that you wouldn't have to. for anyone setting out to buy a scanner, or wanting the best, the consensus from everyone i know is that this is the one... this is really the crux of the matter. if anyone wants to say that highly-accurate o.c.r. is not possible, the first question i would have for them is whether they're using the optic3600; if they aren't, then i would chalk up their inferior results to the use of inferior hardware, and give their claim no credence. at least one highly-experienced person that i know says that, with the opticbook3600, careful attention to the scanning, proper correction of the images, abbyy finereader v7.x, and a beta version of one of the post-o.c.r. correction-programs that will be coming out soon, he's getting excellent results, ones that are superior to what he got with previous scanners, to the point he is within sight of _approaching_ perfection. as far as i'm concerned, as i've said here many times before, an accuracy-rate of 1 error every 10 pages is "good enough" to put an e-text out to the general public for "final" proofing. i am sure we can attain, and surpass, that level of accuracy... (in the past year, i heard the first report of a person who had actually achieved perfection in the scanning of an entire book; spellcheck did find one word, but it was wrong in the original.) so even if the opticbook3600 isn't "a magic bullet" by itself, it might well be the important piece of _hardware_ within a _system_ that could be described as "a magic bullet" in toto. it is too soon to _assert_ that, especially with any certainty, but it's not too soon to consider the possibility it might be so. but even _that_ is largely beside the point, which i will state once again in closing: no other scanner does better today. again, robert, thanks for getting all that feedback! -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] re: feedback report on the opticbook3600
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 16 May '05

16 May '05

robert said: > I have never faced this problem, > because I've never used the software > that comes with the optibook. > I just let Abbyy (ver. 5) drive the scanner right. so you're using another program to do the flipping. that was one of the options i mentioned. :+) > and with the 'Detect image orientation (during recognition)' > option selected, everything comes out right-side-up. cool. :+) i think you would think more highly of the scanner if you coupled it with version 7 of abbyy finereader. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link... -bowerbird

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