- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

info on clearances
by N Wolcott 28 Apr '05

28 Apr '05

Is thee any central place to see the results of a copyright clearance request or do they just go into a hole somewhere? N Wolcott nwolcott2(a)post.harvard.edu

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Re: [gutvol-d] More than you ever wanted to know about XHTML and CSS
by Joshua Hutchinson 27 Apr '05

27 Apr '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Shimmin" <shimmin(a)uiuc.edu> > > > Now, do I agree that we will eventually find something that goes beyond > > what we've covered in the TEI spec? You better believe we will. But when > > that day comes, TEI can be expanded to cover the situation. Do I think this > > will be a common occurance? Not a chance. > > This is just off the top of the stack of projects I would like to put through > DP, but hold off on because they contain elements I consider presently > unmanageable. > > http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~shimmin/almanac.PNG > > Today, if I could figure out a good way to handle it, I would write some > styling for it, submit it, and be done with it. Tomorrow, I will have to bug > some element of the PG bureaucracy to patch my styling into their code, which > it may not be compatible with, or may disagree with their notions of markup > elegance. A tool that works 90% of the time is a wonderful thing. A rule > that works 90% of the time is not. > I can think of a few ways to do this. The easiest (and how I'd probably do it if I was in a hurry), is to just insert the whole figure as an image. <p rend="center"> <figure url="images/image01.png"><figDesc>A Table for the Sodaies letter and Leapeyear.</figDesc></figure></p> If I was a little more energetic (but still fairly lazy), I'd insert the circular part of the figure as an image with the text cut out and added as a blurb below it. <p rend="center"> <figure url="images/image01.png"><figDesc>A Table for the Sodaies letter and Leapeyear.</figDesc></figure></p> <p rend="center">A Table for the Sodaies letter and Leapeyear. blah blah blah</p> If I was REALLY energetic, I'd redo the graphic in SVG (a vector graphic image format), embed that within the TEI and be done. Since SVG is vector based, it has the nice side-effect of scaling very nicely to any output size, whether it is for printing through a PDF, or display on a monitor through HTML. Really, Robert, this one wouldn't have been a show-stopper for DP even without TEI. Josh

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Re: [gutvol-d] More than you ever wanted to know about XHTML and CSS
by Joshua Hutchinson 27 Apr '05

27 Apr '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Shimmin" <shimmin(a)uiuc.edu> > > > The "standardization" is there ... it just doesn't go as far as to specify a > > standard style sheet. > > > > Now, the TEI has a "working" standard style sheet, but there have already > > been some changes identified in testing. > > > > Once, we have the final transforms worked out, I plan on having an open call > > for style sheets on DP. > > I've worked on enough 'quirky' projects to think this a bad idea. The > typesetters of the past did things that often make it a complete judgment call > where the content stops and the presentation begins, and many projects will > not fit on someone else's Procrustean notions of how a PG project 'should' be > styled. > >From my experience, this is not the case and I've put together some very quirky ones into TEI already. I've picked one text with over 1,000 footnotes and over 500 sidenotes. It is complicated, but it renders beautifully. I've picked another text that uses editorial sidenotes running throughout a Middle English poem. Both of these were great test cases that helped us identify bugs in the transform. Now, this isn't to say the layout looks exactly like the original. It does not in many cases. A sidenote in the margin is functionally the same as a sidenote that is floated as an inset on the side of the page. Worrying that the presentation of one matches the original book and one doesn't is irrelevant. The publisher probably didn't slavishly follow the layout the author wrote his original manuscript in either. Now, do I agree that we will eventually find something that goes beyond what we've covered in the TEI spec? You better believe we will. But when that day comes, TEI can be expanded to cover the situation. Do I think this will be a common occurance? Not a chance. Josh

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Re: [gutvol-d] More than you ever wanted to know about XHTML and CSS
by Joshua Hutchinson 27 Apr '05

27 Apr '05

I apologize. The last paragraph attributed to Robert below is actually mine. * Bad mail editor. Bad. Go to your room. * Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Hutchinson" <joshua(a)hutchinson.net> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Shimmin" <shimmin(a)uiuc.edu> > > > > > The "standardization" is there ... it just doesn't go as far as to specify > > a > standard style sheet. > > > > > > Now, the TEI has a "working" standard style sheet, but there have already > > > been some changes identified in testing. > > > > > > Once, we have the final transforms worked out, I plan on having an open > > call > for style sheets on DP. > > > > I've worked on enough 'quirky' projects to think this a bad idea. The > > typesetters of the past did things that often make it a complete judgment > > call where the content stops and the presentation begins, and many projects > > will not fit on someone else's Procrustean notions of how a PG project > > 'should' be styled. > > > > > From my experience, this is not the case and I've put together some very > > quirky ones into TEI already. I've picked one text with over 1,000 > > footnotes and over 500 sidenotes. It is complicated, but it renders > > beautifully. I've picked another text that uses editorial sidenotes running > > throughout a Middle English poem. > > Both of these were great test cases that helped us identify bugs in the > transform. > > Now, this isn't to say the layout looks exactly like the original. It does > not in many cases. > > A sidenote in the margin is functionally the same as a sidenote that is > floated as an inset on the side of the page. Worrying that the presentation > of one matches the original book and one doesn't is irrelevant. The publisher > probably didn't slavishly follow the layout the author wrote his original > manuscript in either. > > Now, do I agree that we will eventually find something that goes beyond what > we've covered in the TEI spec? You better believe we will. But when that day > comes, TEI can be expanded to cover the situation. Do I think this will be a > common occurance? Not a chance. > > Josh > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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Re: [gutvol-d] More than you ever wanted to know about XHTML and CSS
by Joshua Hutchinson 27 Apr '05

27 Apr '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Passey" <lee(a)novomail.net> > > On a related note, let me say that I view internal style declarations as > just plain rude. Style sheets are indeed A Good Thing, but someone > imposing their quirky notions of style on me is not. By placing style > definitions in an external style sheet and simply linking that style > sheet into the main document with a <link> element, it makes it easy for > me to strip away the suggested styles, and return to browser defaults, > by simply deleting or renaming the style sheet. And if the suggested > styles are mostly good, and need only a slight tweaking, it is safer and > easier to edit an external style sheet than the main document. I would > strongly encourage all PG volunteers who are creating HTML documents to > consider putting suggested style definitions in an external style sheet > rather than embedding those styles in the main document. > Let me say that I agree. But right now, the ww'ers have indicated that they want all styles inline. I think this practice should be changed, but it isn't my call. Josh

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Dict of National Biography
by N Wolcott 27 Apr '05

27 Apr '05

The other day I went to the local library to consult their copy of the Dictionary of National Biography, 22 Vol 1921. It was no longer on the shelf. Upon enquiry, I was informed that it was library policy to surplus all material which might be replaced by an electronic resource: in this case the Gale Biographical Database. This database gives old entries from Who's who. Not at all the same. It was given to their surplus book sale. I note it costs $3000 on Abe. And of course when the books are gone there are no more to replace them. (well there may have been a reprint or two). Also the "books were old and out of date" were "not in use" . The reference books in use were "All the plots of Shakespeare's Plays", "Condensed 100 novels with plot lines" etc. I suggested they were encouraging theft as a mode of preservation. They were not amused. Disposal was up to the local librarian, in this case ssomeone whom I believe probably thought there was no need for English History anyway. N Wolcott nwolcott2(a)post.harvard.edu

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More than you ever wanted to know about XHTML and CSS
by Lee Passey 26 Apr '05

26 Apr '05

gutvol-d-request(a)lists.pglaf.org wrote: > On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 04:20:15PM -0400, Bowerbird(a)aol.com wrote: > > > i'm trying to look at the .html version of #15701, which i > > downloaded as a zip file to my own machine, and it seems to require > > an open internet connection. it wants to call the w3 or something. > > why? > > I don't know. It doesn't for me. It's conceivable--just-- that your > browser is trying to pre-fetch the W3 DTD as defined in the DOCTYPE > declaration, but it's the first time I ever heard of something like > that happening. And the same declaration is in lots of texts; nothing > new or strange about this one. Internet Explorer 5.5 is the only browser I have for which my firewall is configured to prevent outgoing access without permission. Opening this file in IE 5.5 does not create any outgoing connections. Examination of the file reveals that there are no resources referenced in the file external to the file itself except: 1. the DTD declaration, and 2. an image of the Burke coat of arms. Given the fact that your browser is attempting to contact the W3C (the "owners" of the XHTML DTD) I would agree with Mr. Tinsley that your browser seems to be attempting to fetch the declared DTD. In fact, given that Opera seems to have fairly good support for most XML vocabularies other than XHTML, I would bet that you're seeing this behavior when using the Opera browser. When you refuse the outgoing connection, is the document displayed anyway? (not that it will make any difference, but I _am_ curious). [snip] > > and the .html version of #15698 won't work in either one... > > > > That one is more interesting; it doesn't have a terminating HTML > comment mark after the <style>. However, the W3C validators have no > problem with it, and the parse tree is recognized, and I've given up > trying to track all the ways that foreign command-sets or languages > can be embedded in HTML. Maybe a newer browser will help. What is > Opera on now? 8? The problem is, indeed, the unterminated comment. The XHTML DTD defines the <style> element as containing #PCDATA, which is to say textual 'stuff' which may or may not be HTML. An HTML User Agent should _not_ attempt to parse any of the data between <style> and </style>, but should pass that text on to the stylesheet parser. It has become common to embed an internal style declaration inside HTML comments () for compatibility with older browsers which did not support style sheets. If a browser did not support style sheets it would encounter the <style> tag and ignore it, as all good browsers are designed to do. It would then encounter the HTML comment tag and ignore everything until the closing tag was encountered. That way the browser wouldn't display the style definitions as just more text. On the other hand, stylesheet parsers are designed to ignore the comment tags themselves, so all the stylesheet goodness is visible to a stylesheet parser. While the lack of a closing comment tag in the <style> element is a bug in the document, the failure of your browser(s) to ignore comment tags in a <style> element is also a bug in those programs. While I don't have a working installation of IE prior to 5.5, which does _not_ have this problem, the problem also presents itself in Opera 7.11, but has been fixed in Opera 7.51. My experience has been that in the past Opera has been somewhat slavishly devoted to mimicing the behavior of IE, even when that behavior is contrary to internet standards (Javascript implementations come to mind). It is therefore not surprising that early versions of Opera should have the same behavior as early versions of IE. Despite the bugginess of your browsers, the HTML text at Project Gutenberg really should be fixed, as this will cause the failure to display the text in any browser which does not support the <style> element. Because the contents of a <style> element is #PCDATA, HTML validators will generally not be able to catch this type of error. I have examined the source code for HTML Tidy, and when it encounters a <style> tag it simple creates a text node for the entire text up to the </style> tag. No validation of the actual style sheets is performed. I suspect that the W3C validator operates the same way. Validators are good tools, but satisfying a validator does not mean that the HTML is, in fact, valid -- only that there are no errors of the type that the validators are designed to catch. On a related note, let me say that I view internal style declarations as just plain rude. Style sheets are indeed A Good Thing, but someone imposing their quirky notions of style on me is not. By placing style definitions in an external style sheet and simply linking that style sheet into the main document with a <link> element, it makes it easy for me to strip away the suggested styles, and return to browser defaults, by simply deleting or renaming the style sheet. And if the suggested styles are mostly good, and need only a slight tweaking, it is safer and easier to edit an external style sheet than the main document. I would strongly encourage all PG volunteers who are creating HTML documents to consider putting suggested style definitions in an external style sheet rather than embedding those styles in the main document.

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Re: [gutvol-d] Update on Harvesting of the Internet Archive's Ca
by Jonathan Ingram 25 Apr '05

25 Apr '05

--- Robert Shimmin <shimmin(a)uiuc.edu> wrote: > > I've always found it a let down when a book I've laboured over > > pops up in PG 3 days before my year-long effort is finally finished. > > I have dibs on this: hands off. > > Despair not, but instead Rejoice! Having two independent transcriptions > is a great way to catch errors, since two transcribers working from > different copies of the book, by different methods, are unlikely to make > the same error. Assuming there aren't major textual differences, > diffing two independent transcriptions and checking the discrepancies is > one of the best way to get our quality up to five or even six nines. Very true. Although we're not aiming to redo books that people are currently working on, I see nothing wrong with running books through DP which are already in PG. There are several reasons for this, including error correction, and the creation of HTML editions, which are basically standard these days for DP-produced texts. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Update on Harvesting of the Internet Archive's Canadian Libraries collection
by Jonathan Ingram 25 Apr '05

25 Apr '05

A week ago, DP started systematically working through the Internet Archive's Canadian Libraries collection. In that week, we have looked at 208 of the 798 books in the archive. Of these, 22 books are identical to books which have previously been through DP, so will not need to be looked at further, and 18 books have errors (missing or blurred pages) -- the remaining 168 are being processed and should eventually all move through DP. The aim is to eventually process *every* book in this collection, and then move on to others. You can monitor the current progress of our harvesting effort here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jenjonliz/jon/tia/canadianlibraries.html And (if you are a DP project manager) claim texts using the following thread in the DP forum: http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14768 -- Jon Ingram __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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the .html version of e-text #15701
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 24 Apr '05

24 Apr '05

i'm trying to look at the .html version of #15701, which i downloaded as a zip file to my own machine, and it seems to require an open internet connection. it wants to call the w3 or something. why? even with such a connection, it won't display in ie5.1. works in opera 5, but not internet explorer. why not? and the .html version of #15698 won't work in either one... help, anyone? -bowerbird

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