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Re: [gutvol-d] PT1 History of PG
by Joshua Hutchinson 24 Jan '05

24 Jan '05

Believe what? That Moore's Law was never meant to be applied to PG? Yes, I believe that. That Moore's Law is being applied arbitrarily to PG production? Yes, I believe that. That Moore's Law is not being adhered to by our production EXCEPT for the very specific and arbitrary start date chosen by you? Yes, I believe that. Do I believe it is a big deal? No. It is obviously a marketing gimmick with no real value. MOST marketing gimmicks "cook the numbers" in some way, so this just adheres to the grand traditions of marketing/public relations. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hart" <hart(a)pglaf.org> To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] PT1 History of PG Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:39:15 -0800 (PST) > > > Just a simple question. . .how many people believe any of this? > > Should I really go through the motions of refuting it again, > and again, and again? > > As I said privately, offline, I don't think even the speaker > believes what he is saying. . . . > > Michael > > > On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > > Michael Hart wrote: > > > >> Obviously no one ever seriously considered that Project Gutenberg > >> might actually release a million eBooks in 2001, but there were a > >> few examples recently of suggestions that we should have used the > >> 1971 date, and thus the resultant figures listed above when doing > >> our Moore's Law predictions. > > > > [epighraph] > > > > "Contrary to popular claims, it appears that the common versions of > > Moore's Law have not been valid during the last decades. As > > semiconductors are becoming important in economy and society, Moore's > > Law is now becoming an increasingly misleading predictor of future > > developments." > > > > ... > > > > "Indeed, sociologically Moore's Law is a fascinating case of how myths are > > manufactured in the modern society and how such myths rapidly propagate into > > scientific articles, speeches of leading industrialists, and government > > policy reports around the world." > > > > http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue7_11/tuomi/index.html > > > > [/epigraph] > > > > Read that page for the sad truth about Moore's "Law". > > > > > > My suggestion was to stop using arbitrary data to keep up the illusion > > of Moore's Law (which, if you had read that page, would have known never > > worked even for computers) but to use real data to show that Moore's > > "Law" does not fit to PG production. > > > > The suggestion was to use the real date the project started (1971) > > instead of your fictitious and arbitrary one (1990). > > > > Of course, using real dates, the idea that PG production followed > > Moore's Law dies a horrible death. > > > > > > Even looking at the relatively short period of Nov 2003 to Nov 2004 we > > can prove in a very simple manner that Moore's Law doesn't hold. > > > > 1. In Nov 2003 we had 10000 books. > > > > 2. Applying Moore's Law, in Nov 2004 we should have had > > 10000 * 2 ^ (12/18) = 15874 books. > > > > 3. Moore's Law does not hold for PG archive size. > > > > QED > > > > > > The sad fact is: some people with a marketing person's mind prefer to > > stick to a phony and proven wrong "Law" because it is such a slick > > formulation. > > > > Why do we need flashy formulas at all? If we say: "we got 15000 books > > today" isn't that enough? Don't you have faith in the facts? > > > > > > -- Marcello Perathoner > > webmaster(a)gutenberg.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gutvol-d mailing list > > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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Re: !@! Re: [gutvol-d] Moving and Removing eBooks
by D. Starner 23 Jan '05

23 Jan '05

Michael Hart writes: > This is why we do not "Move or Remove" eBooks from > the more visble locations to the less visible. We do everytime we make a new edition of a book; we move the old edition from the default link to something you'd have to dig around in the directory tree does. Darn good thing, too. -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

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Re: [gutvol-d] Moving and Removing eBooks
by Jim Tinsley 22 Jan '05

22 Jan '05

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:34:58 -0700, Jon Noring <jon(a)noring.name> wrote: >[Note: many of the pre-DP texts need to be redone from scratch for >various reasons. For another project, I'm now working on My �ntonia by >Willa Cather, one of the early PG releases (#242), and the latest PG >edition of it, #11!, is horribly mangled from various edits, without >recourse to the original, during its lifetime. I interpreted this as an errata report, and checked it out. There have been no edits to this book during its lifetime, horrible mangles or otherwise. Edition 11 is just a re-wrapping of edition 10, with the words "THE END" removed from the end of the text. I have no idea why someone felt it desirable to rewrap the original text, since the original looks perfectly good to me; however, it was done. The date on edition 10 is Feb 16 1995, which is consistent with its original posting, so if myant10 was ever changed at all, it was within weeks of first posting, and not since -- not a shock; Judy always did good work! Apart from spaces, blank lines, and indents consequent to the re-wrapping, the two texts are identical, as anyone who checks can easily verify. jim

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Marking Bold in text files
by Al Haines (shaw) 21 Jan '05

21 Jan '05

In November 2004 there were several threads dealing with marking bold text in text files ("Marking bold & italic in .txt"). One of those messages, dated Nov 12, 2004, indicated that the PG FAQ's would be updated to indicate the use of asterisks (*) to mark bold text, similar to PG's FAQ V.94's standard of using underscores to indicate italicized text. Was this update ever done? FYI - I checked the Distributed Proofing site's FAQ's, but the only reference I can find of bold text says to use the HTML and tags. In the absence of a PG standard, is it OK for me to use asterisks to indicate bold text within a document? (Note that I'd only be doing this for bold text inside paragraphs, not for things like headings that might be bolded as part of some automatic formatting process.) Al

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Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files
by Joshua Hutchinson 21 Jan '05

21 Jan '05

Well, this is how I would handle it... :) [Footnote 1: *poem fragment* The footnote text itself.] The footnote number would be the poem line number it refers to. JHutch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Haines (shaw)" <ajhaines(a)shaw.ca> To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:39:20 -0800 > > Hmm... Hopefully I haven't opened *too* big a can of worms here <G>, so I'll > re-cast my question in terms of the specific book I'm working on. > > It's a textbook on selected poems of Tennyson and Wordsworth. The poems have > line reference numbers every 10 lines, and those and interim line numbers are > used to refer to footnotes. > > Each footnote consists of the line number (not bolded), then a fragment of > that line of the poem (bolded), then the footnote body (not bolded) discussing > the fragment. > > It's the use of asterisks around the fragment portion of the footnote that my > question was directed to. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Hutchinson" <joshua(a)hutchinson.net> > To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:34 PM > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonathan Walther" <krooger(a)debian.org> > > > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2005 at 02:51:40PM -0500, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > > Well, technically, we were here first... They reinvented OUR wheel! ;) > > > > > > PG has been using _ to indicate italics for as long as I can remember. > > > > Is each word individually italicized? It would look messy, but be > > robust. > > > > No, each section of italicized words is marked. > > EXAMPLE: > > This is a sentence with _an italicized phrase_. > > This is a sentence with *a bolded phrase*. > > **** > > The obvious problem with this encoding is that it can be very difficult to > determine that every opening _ is closed by the appropriate _. That is one of > the reasons DP uses and in the proofing interface instead. > > Josh > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files
by Joshua Hutchinson 21 Jan '05

21 Jan '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Walther" <krooger(a)debian.org> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2005 at 02:51:40PM -0500, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > Well, technically, we were here first... They reinvented OUR wheel! ;) > > > > PG has been using _ to indicate italics for as long as I can remember. > > Is each word individually italicized? It would look messy, but be > robust. > No, each section of italicized words is marked. EXAMPLE: This is a sentence with _an italicized phrase_. This is a sentence with *a bolded phrase*. **** The obvious problem with this encoding is that it can be very difficult to determine that every opening _ is closed by the appropriate _. That is one of the reasons DP uses and in the proofing interface instead. Josh

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Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files
by Joshua Hutchinson 21 Jan '05

21 Jan '05

Well, technically, we were here first... They reinvented OUR wheel! ;) PG has been using _ to indicate italics for as long as I can remember. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Desrosiers" <hacker(a)gnu-designs.com> To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:46:56 -0500 (EST) > > > > One of those messages, dated Nov 12, 2004, indicated that the PG FAQ's would > > be updated to indicate the use of asterisks (*) to mark bold text, similar > > to PG's FAQ V.94's standard of using underscores to indicate italicized > > text. Was this update ever done? > > I can't help but notice that this is the exact opposite of the > Markdown syntax and format used by many "wiki" forums and online web > applications. Any particular reason for reinventing this wheel again? > Why not reuse one of the existing systems for plain-text markup, that > is ultimately easier to parse out for further conversion back to any > other format (bbcode, Markdown, wikitext). > > Just my 0.02 Euros. > > David A. Desrosiers > desrod(a)gnu-designs.com > http://gnu-designs.com > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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Re: [gutvol-d] Moving and Removing eBooks
by Joshua Hutchinson 21 Jan '05

21 Jan '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hart" <hart(a)pglaf.org> > > On Thu, 20 Jan 2005, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > > I do remember a discussion last month about a file format that is completely > > unaccesible (the reader no longer exists). There is one or two ebooks in > > the PG collection in this format. There was call to deprecate those > > versions into an OLD subfolder (or something like that) so that people > > coming to the site weren't confused. > > Everyone refers to their own suggestions as "better". . .as "reform," etc. > Well ... duh! Do you honestly think people would suggest things that they think are "worse" than what is already being done? The test is whether OTHER people think those ideas are "better". > > No one advocated deletion, only better cataloging. > > As for "only better cataloging". . .the obvious thing is simply to point > plainly to both versions, with a note that the Folio format requires a > proprietary reader. > Allow me to use our very first ebook as an example of how we don't link to everything available on many things already. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1 As you can see at the above link, we have a link to different formats. However, we only show one edition of each one. For instance, the plain text version links to edition 12. However, if you go look at the etext90 directory, you'll see that there is an edition 11 available in plain text. We don't link to it, though. You see, we keep old stuff, but we don't have to link to it from the bibrec pages. That is all people were advocating in this particular case. We have a precedent of deprecating some things. Why is this particular case any different (especially since this has more potential to cause confusion)? > > That is probably where Michael's dozen is coming from, because many people > > thought this was a sensible step to take (and basically only Michael thought > > it wasn't). > > Actually, the dozen comes from various discussions we've had over time. > Fair enough. It wasn't clear in your original post what "dozens" were referring to. I apologize for putting words in your mouth. > > Some of us try to remember the past as we plan for the future. > Rather a non-sensical thing to say in this context. No one advocated forgetting the past (i.e., deleting anything). They did advocate reorganizing how we access that past data. Josh

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Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files
by Joshua Hutchinson 21 Jan '05

21 Jan '05

* should be used to indicate a footnote in a PG text (though there may be OLD examples of doing such). For instance, all DP-generated text's footnotes would mark the * as [A]. A numbered footnote would look like this [1]. Chances are, if any old texts use * as a footnote marker, when they get updated, that will probably be updated as well. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Walther" <krooger(a)debian.org> To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Marking Bold in text files Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:38:13 -0800 > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2005 at 02:36:35PM -0500, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > As far as I know, * to indicate bold is acceptable in the text > > versions. > > Sometimes * indicates a footnote; how do you distinguish using automated > tools? > > Jonathan > > -- Puritan: Purity of faith, Purity of doctrine. Sola Scriptura! > Eukleia: Jonathan Walther > Address: 12706 99 Ave, Surrey, BC V3V2P8 (Canada) > Contact: 604-582-9308 (between 7am and 11pm, PST) > Website: http://reactor-core.org/ > > Patriarchy, Polygamy, Slavery === Fatherhood, Husbandry, Mastery > Matriarchy, Monogamy, Prisons === Wickedness, Stupidity, Buggery > > It's not true unless it makes you laugh, > but you don't understand it until it makes you weep. << signature.asc >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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PT1 History of PG
by Michael Hart 21 Jan '05

21 Jan '05

THE HISTORY OF PROJECT GUTENBERG It seems I have been remiss in keeping everyone up to date on the history of Project Gutenberg over the past few years, so I am taking this opportunity to write A Brief History of Project Gutenberg in several segments that will, hopefully, make amends for this lack on my part. PART ONE: THE FIRST 10 YEARS 1971-1980 In terms of actual page production, many people dismiss the opening decade of Project Gutenberg nearly completely. Now in terms of space, the published eTexts, as we called those at the time, will all fit on a modern floppy disk. Because of stringent storage allocations our eText files on the million dollar mainframe were just barely allowed. The struggle to put even these small files online was enormous, as it was a totally revolutionary idea to put up a file for a non-predetermined time period. This idea of something an entire future could download had never been brought up, and thus it was VERY hard to get permission to post even a file as small as the Declaration of Independence, because it was going to take up permanent space on the computer. Files of the following list were perhaps the first inkling of a kind of permanence the early Internet pioneers did not consider: Dec 1979 Abraham Lincoln's First Inaugural Address Dec 1978 Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address Dec 1977 The Mayflower Compact Dec 1976 Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death, Patrick Henry Dec 1975 The United States Constitution Nov 1974 Gettysburg Address, Abraham Lincoln Nov 1973 John F. Kennedy's Inaugural Address Dec 1972 The United States Bill of Rights Dec 1971 The United States Declaration of Independence These first 9 files were collected into all7011.txt and all7011.zip for easy redistribution in upper and lower case in later years. The original files were all upper case, as there was no lower case on the early machines we were using at the time. You may see that we skipped two years between the US Bill of Rights and the US Constitution; we were originally going to try to include the complete Constitution in just a year after the Declaration, but we were told that would take too much space, and we were given just enough space for the Bill of Rights. The next year we asked again, but room was still very scarce, and so we asked again the next year and the year after. By then I was able to make convincing argument that waiting any longer might delay it so long that people wouldn't have access to it long enough before Bicentennial year of 1776, so we finally got room at the end of 1975. This may not sound very exciting to you from 30 years later, but it was VERY exciting to us, being able to put these files online for a whole country to use during the United States Bicentennial. We finished out the decade with more of those "Freedom Celebration" documents, as they were called, which were placed on the walls of a a variety of schools, malls, etc., during this period. During the period the greatest struggle was just to talk operators, even those that were very good friends, into giving us enough space to store anything but the smallest files. It was one thing to have $100,000,000 in "computer money" that could be used to run programs and send emails, but it was quite another thing to be granted space to store files that people from around the country would download. Here's just one early example: When I completed the Declaration of Independence, I wanted to email it to everyone on the Net [DARPANet, as we called it], but I found, to my great surprise, that if I had done this, even with such small files as the Declaration of Independence [5K], that it would create a complete network crash, since most of our wires were 113 baud, or 11 characters per second. Luckily, I asked for help in sending it, and avoided becoming quite well known as the first person to bring the Net to its knees; and a "Morris Worm" would have only been an asterisk, and so would I!!! In the end we simply posted a message to what later became comp.gen so people could get the file on request. My recollection is that 6 people downloaded it, other than the other four on our site, so the greatest penetration would have been about 10%. . .which sounds big by today's standards, but I had been hoping for more. A word about the computer operators of the day: we used to joke in many ways that the computer operators were the current priesthood-- you handed in your offering through the stainless steel window, and prayed that they would be worthy enough for the computer to run it. If you understand this, then perhaps you can also understand how it was the computer operators had so much power. Not only should they be considered as the entire force of computer security of that day, but they could also save you hours, if not days, of time by telling you just where and/or why your program wasn't running. I was quite seriously lucky that my brother's best friend was the operator from midnight to 8AM, when most of the free computer time was available, and that he gave me the account I used to start Project Gutenberg-- and as lucky that MY best friend became the 8AM-5PM operator. I should add that even at such an early date, I had help from those anonymous contributors who so often help. In this case I never was able to find out who typed in the first U.S. Constitution versions. I asked and asked, and even though there weren't that many persons, I never could find or thank the one who did it. That version was a print version in what served as a sort of markup of the day, so all I had to do was take out all the markup, backspace/underscores etc. to create a version that looked good onscreen. If anyone knows, it would still be nice to find out today, and send our thanks; for now I would just like to include a general thanks to all the volunteers who have helped Project Gutenberg over more than 1/3 century. Anyway, that's the story of the first decade of Project Gutenberg-- and I hope to work up something for the 1980's for next week. I should add here that even though the Apple II was out, I had none of the kind of money it would have taken to buy one, so my computer ownership starts not in this segment, but in the next one. Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg Postscript: For those interested in counting ye olde Project Gutenberg eBooks-- please note that there is no growth curve for this period; a growth graph would simply be a straight line, 1 title = 1 year, so it is a trivial point to say that at this growth rate it would take ~15,000 years to do ~15,000 titles, and that I would have been dead so long before we ever got to eBook #100 that no one would have remembered. Hence we do not talk about doubling rates for this period since the years required doubled at the same rate as the index entries did. Nevertheless, you will, from time to time, see people manipulate an army of statistics in such a way as to include these in patterns of growth, even though it is common knowledge that the earliest growth figures of any such pattern are quite linear. Just look at a curve of the population of the earth for a perfect example. Such curves, if studied in detail, yield a wealth of such growth information. Sample Moore's Law Projections Based on 1971 Here is an example of what would happen if Project Gutenberg growth projections were started using the 1 item we had in 1971: Start Finish Total Total ##### Year Year Years Doubles x2^y = Grand Total in Year #1 1971 2001 30 20 1*2^20 = 1,048,576 in 2001 #1 1971 2004 33 22 1*2^22 = 4,194,304 in 2004 Obviously no one ever seriously considered that Project Gutenberg might actually release a million eBooks in 2001, but there were a few examples recently of suggestions that we should have used the 1971 date, and thus the resultant figures listed above when doing our Moore's Law predictions. I trust at least this specific example has now been put to rest.

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