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Re: d.p.'s undeserved superior attitude about "quality"
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 25 Feb '10

25 Feb '10

carel said: > The fact that they even strive for quality at DP is a mark in their favor. not really. everyone is gonna tell you they strive for quality... (trust me, nobody's gonna say, "quality doesn't matter to us.") besides... it depends on how you go about trying to attain that goal. and d.p. has a lot of problems -- a lot -- in that respect... but it's not the notion that d.p. "strives" for quality that's irritating; it is their blind stubbornness that they have already _attained_ it, coupled with an unwillingness to measure the price they pay for it. let's take the first item first -- the idea that d.p. quality is _great_. this has been a staple of the propaganda served on the d.p. forums for _years_ now. equally troubling is their accompanying attitude that solo producers create shitty e-texts. if you want, i can point to some listserve posts from years back where this led to some highly embarrassing interactions for d.p., where one solo producer showed just exactly how _crappy_ some d.p. e-texts were, and dared d.p. to uncover any errors in the work that he had done. they couldn't do it. that led to a big shakeup at d.p., as d.p. got spooked about "quality", and started piling on the rounds to make sure they got things right. it also resulted in a slight reworking of the standard propaganda, where "the early d.p. e-texts had flaws, but the later ones are great." this is even better, because it's even more insidious towards rebuff, and you see this superior attitude expressed regularly on the forums. now, i do believe d.p. quality is better these days. but now they are paying a _very_ high price for it, in terms of the time and energy used. when d.p. piled on the rounds, and made people "earn" a p3 badge, they significantly increased the time and energy used, and they also bought themselves backlogs that are threatening to strangle them... which means that in spite of a constant influx of people (thanks to that banner on the p.g. website that directs volunteers over to d.p.), production hasn't increased as a result (it's been flat for years now), and the burnout factor has become palpable. not a good situation... i don't mind if _you_, as a _volunteer_, decide that you want to spend hours and days and weeks and months getting your e-text _perfect_. but when you start wasting the time and energy of _other_people_ -- who are _volunteers_ who've donated time and energy to you -- by putting them into a workflow that is decidedly inefficient, i mind. meanwhile, the attitude about "quality" at d.p. has gotten ridiculous. i ran a poll there years back, on "how much quality would you like?" > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32479 the question: > for a 200-page average-difficulty book, > how many errors should we > tolerate as "acceptable" for > posting that book to project gutenberg? the poll gave people options, which received the following votes: > none -- it must be perfect -- 4% -- [2] > 1 error in 200 pages is good enough -- 16% [7] > 2-4 errors in 200 pages is good enough -- 30% [13] > 5-10 errors in 200 pages is good enough -- 23% [10] > 10-20 errors in 200 pages is good enough -- 9% [4] > 20-40 errors in 200 pages is good enough -- 2% [1] > 40-50 errors in 200 pages is good enough -- 0% [0] > 50-100 errors in 200 pages is good enough -- 0% [0] > 100-200 errors in 200 pages is good enough -- 0% [0] > you can't have your pudding until you eat your meat! -- 13% [6] > Total Votes : 43 as you can see, even though i gave a lot of options trying to stretch them out, of the d.p. people who expressed an opinion, the majority wanted no more than 4 errors in a 200-page book, and roughly 9 out of 10 of them wanted no more than 10 errors, and i have no doubt they think they are _meeting_that_standard_. which is just plain ridiculous. 4 errors in a 200-page book is a _very_ polished book -- most digitizations aren't that good. (many aren't anywhere close to being that good.) but d.p. people _think_ their work is that good. they _believe_ it. they _proclaim_ it, as if it were a proven fact. but it's not a fact. many years back, "zora" from d.p. was one of the loudest people proclaiming the superiority of d.p. quality, so i analyzed a book that she had postprocessed. i found _hundreds_ of errors in it, even _obvious_ stuff, like out-of-sequence footnote-numbers... i haven't analyzed any d.p. books lately, but given the fact that people there have an undeserved sense of their _superiority_ when it comes to the issue of quality, perhaps i should do that. it might be fun to knock them off that high horse. of course, they won't listen over there. but we will know here... -bowerbird

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Re: Translation project
by cmiske＠ashzfall.com 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

Keith and Andrew: Thank you so much for your replies. I am in the process of learning Spanish (the 'textbook' version they tend to teach in the US school system). In my readings I have already encountered many moments of "I know what it is saying, but what does it mean?" I lack the cultural background and ability to 'play' with words that is necessary for high-level translation. What I was actually thinking of was more along the lines of the translation of early readers (such as the Dick and Jane series) into a multitude of languages. As books of this nature are intended to have a rather limited vocabulary scope and to facilitate the learning of an individual's 'native' language, I thought these books might also be helpful if translated into multiple languages. When reading these books it would also be possible for the language learners to refer to the edition in their native language for guidance. I'm not sure that this sort of translation process would actually create something that PG would even want. Is there much interest beyond my own to see "See Spot. See Spot run...." translated into a dozen or more languages? I assumed that if there were much interest, there would already be such a project out there on the internet. There are, of course, books of this nature on the market, but they are rather limited in availability and somewhat pricey. A free archive would be nice. I agree that the majority of works of literature should be left to the experts and native speakers of both languages. Andrew's project was a fine example of a collaborative effort. I hope more people get together in small groups (or individually) to translate more works. Their efforts are appreciated. Carel -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Translation project From: "Keith J. Schultz" <schultzk(a)uni-trier.de> Date: Wed, February 24, 2010 2:57 am To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Hi Carel, Translation is a fine art. You have to be proficient in both languages and should be a nativer speaker of the language you translate into. Furthermore there is more to translation than taking the text and translating the words, systanx, and semantics. You have to do research on the author, historical research to understand the mood in which a text was written. As proof of fact just take a look at Shakespeare. I have to agree with Andrew that a collabarative approach is not good. You must have strict rules in place when a group is working together. I do not mean to discourage you, but want to make sure you understand the task of translating. regards Keith. Am 23.02.2010 um 07:00 schrieb Andrew Sly: > No particular site springs to mind. Perhaps if we knew the > language you have in mind it might be easier to go searching > for possibilities. > > One barrier to that kind of collabarative translation is that > there is usually not one "proper and correct" way to translate > a given phrase. There can be different word order, differences > in shades of meaning and tone, etc. If you have different people > translate different parts of a text, you can end up with great > lack of a consistent style. > > It's not impossible though. Take this example: > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/28971 > > It was worked on by a small group of people specifically > for inclusion in PG. A couple people translated different > chunks of the text from English, then after the whole thing > was put together, we did a few proof-reading runs, tried to > even out inconsistencies, ran a spell check, etc. > > This was done through email and using a wiki. > > --Andrew > > On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 cmiske(a)ashzfall.com wrote: > >> I've just recently started studying a language that is foreign to me. >> Although I am a long way off from being able to translate anything >> beyond an early reader, I was wondering if there is a translation >> project out there that is similar to DP? I looked about the PG site, but >> could not find a link to anything of that nature. >> >> Thanks; >> Carel >> > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d

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Re: so what is so important about pagination?
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

keith said: > I agree with BB, but we have different ways about doing it. well, to put it in a way that is just a bit more accurate... i have actually developed a system for doing it, and coded tools that prove both the viability and the efficiency of that system... and you've written some posts where you waved your hands around... so, yes, in a sense, we do have "different ways" of "doing it"... ;+) -bowerbird

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Re: !@!!@!!@!Re: Re: so what is so important about pagination?
by cmiske＠ashzfall.com 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

I agree as well that the original digitalization should be as lossless as possible. The various outputs of this original can then be as lossy as anyone cares to make them. If the original is lossy, then the information is lost 'forever.' Lossy originals reduce the choices of readers and forces a convention upon them of what is and is not important. The readers of the books should decide what they want/need. Carel -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: !@!!@!!@!Re: Re: so what is so important about pagination? From: "Keith J. Schultz" <schultzk(a)uni-trier.de> Date: Wed, February 24, 2010 3:23 am To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Hi All, Been following this thread loosely. But the fact remains that the problem is the encoding of the digital text!!! NOT, the output. I have said it time and time again, the the encoding has to encode the information of the original scan or p-text. Thats is a rendering of such an encoding will produce a fairly close copy of the original. (I use rendering here as a way of producing the text; either in text or display) For the output you simply use those parts of the encoding for your output that you need. The page number problem can be handled because out of convention they are placed in the header or footer of a page. So if you do not want the original pagenumbers then just skip them. If you want the original page breaks use them and output it where you want it. I agree with BB, but we have different ways about doing it.

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Re: so what is so important about pagination?
by christine 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

I have been following this conversation, and would like it to lead to a slight change in the PG pagination rule. As post-processor at DP-Int, I often have the feeling of uploading unfinished works because I have to remove the pagination from the text files. I don't mind in novels, but for books with index, it is another matter. Some time ago, I received a mail asking me why I format my page numbers as invisible in the html files. One of my reason is that I can not see the point of showing them, since most of everything is linked (TOC, LOI, Index, etc...) When I started post-processing, I included the page numbers in the text files, and often had to remove them to have the project posted. When I asked about the reason, I received the answers "it disturbs", "there is no need for it, the reader can do a search", etc. Now, it does not seem very logical to show them in a linked file (html) and leave them out in the text file. Doing a search is not a very good solution either, in most of the case, it is like searching for a Smith in a british telephon book, more finds than you care for. As example: I am currently working on "The Life of Napoleon", one of the index entries says "N. returns to Paris". Well, searching for "Napoleon" or "Paris" in that project would brings too many finds, as for "returns" this would not bring you to the proper page either, because, there, you find "is driven back". So, would it be possible to just relax that rule and let the volunteer decides *if* the pagination in the text file of a project is needed or not. Christine (aka Lostpaces)

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Re: !@!!@!!@!Re: Re: so what is so important about pagination?
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

michael said: > If you have a point to make, you missed. i think lots of people got the point. but you evidently missed it. > Take better aim and try again, or give it up. my aim is true. i've done enough. i have no need to "give up", _or_ to continue. the future is the entity that will deal with this. doesn't matter how much friction we generate. the future will deal. and this is how the future will do that dealing: 1. it will need to tell which texts are accurate and which are not, because it will find itself awash in e-books without provenance... 2. it will do this determination by comparing digital text to scans. (it will test the validity of the scans by comparing them to p-books.) 3. digital text which retained pagination/linebreaks will lend itself better to this comparison process, so it will generally tend to "win", and the "best practice" will come to require this aspect, and strictly. 4. digital text which is difficult to get to (e.g., zipped up in .epub, obscured by some opaque format, unduly burdened by d.r.m., etc.) and text which has discarded its pagination/linebreaks will lose out. i have no interest in engaging in "debate" on these 4 points, because it's perfectly clear to me that they're all _inevitable_. the question here is whether p.g. wants its e-texts in group #3 or #4. -bowerbird

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Translation project
by cmiske＠ashzfall.com 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

I've just recently started studying a language that is foreign to me. Although I am a long way off from being able to translate anything beyond an early reader, I was wondering if there is a translation project out there that is similar to DP? I looked about the PG site, but could not find a link to anything of that nature. Thanks; Carel

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the d.p. opinion on "prerelease" of e-texts
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

just in case you were wondering, dkretz _did_ copy michael hart's saturday post over to d.p., giving michael's position in favor of prerelease of texts while they're still "in progress" at d.p. that was on saturday evening, and since then there have been over 100 posts in response: > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42940 there was an earlier discussion on the issue too: > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42695 the earlier discussion had over 100 posts as well, and had a poll, which got a high number of votes. the poll question? > Making preview texts available on a dedicated site, > with a clear label that they're work in progress. > Good idea/bad idea? the poll results? > 45% -- I'd rather you didn't > 17% -- I couldn't care less > 36% -- Great idea! some people are quite agitated at the thought of the idea. they drag out the old rot about how "d.p. means _quality_". -bowerbird

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Re: !@!!@!!@!Re: Re: so what is so important about pagination?
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 24 Feb '10

24 Feb '10

michael said: > You missed your real point, that it was already time for you to quit. i seem to have found it now. you're wrong, michael, and the future will deliver the _real_ point. -bowerbird

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so what is so important about pagination?
by christine 23 Feb '10

23 Feb '10

I am not talking about adding big chunk of blank lines, but of either including the page number like that [p.101] in the text, I do not like this solution since it disturb when doing a search; or adding the page number at the start of the 1. paragraph starting on a page, e.g.: change of page, blah blah end of paragraph. [p.101]Text of the new paragraph. With a TN explaining that the page numbers are not accuratly placed at the start of the page, but at the start of the 1. paragraph starting on that page. The aim is to make the use of the files as easy and comfortable to the reader as possible. Christine >From: "Michael S. Hart" <hart(a)pglaf.org> > > >I'm reading in a 34 line window. > >Let's say there are only 2 blank lines before and after page numbers, >that's 5 lines, or about 14% of my screen, when they go by. > >Anything over 10% is going to be distracting, according to perception >psychologists. . .I find my eye is attracted there. . . .

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