- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: [gutvol-d] [BP] The Future of eBooks
by Joshua Hutchinson 10 Nov '04

10 Nov '04

I've heard this suggestion before, but I think it bears repeating... This sounds an awful lot like a Wikipedia entry. I think a loose partnership between us and wikipedia would be useful here. We have the book and a link could be made from the catalog page to that books entry in Wikipedia. Then, we have a place to put all sorts of information about the book, the author, where it was published, the historical context it was conceived in, ... just about anything someone wants to add. Wikipedia's hyperlinked nature would also allow someone looking up information on, say, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, to get information on all sorts of related Jules Verne books and even perhaps other Science Fiction books in the PG collection ... provided someone takes the time to enter the information. This doesn't solve any catalog problems we may have, but it does address some of the concerns raised by Lynne. And, the only change needed on our side would be a link to the wikipedia article on each book (something that could be implemented piecemeal as someone makes a wikipedia article available). Thoughts? Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynne Anne Rhodes <lynne(a)rhodesresearch.biz> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] [BP] The Future of eBooks Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:11:28 -0700 > > I'm new around here so please forgive me if I go over old ground. > > I have subscribed to the RSS Recently Posted or Updated feeds and it is truely > amazing to see the way the entries roll in every night. However, it is > frustrating to see when one of the entries is opened up there is little > information apart from the author (with or without dates) and a title. In > most cases I have no idea what the book is about and whether I am interested > in it. > > I, and I am sure many others would love to see a bit more detail such as the > original date of publication and a brief synopsis of the work. Obviously to > enter such information day after day with such a rush of material is far > beyond the resources of a small group of volunteers, however, dedicated. > > Would it not be possible to devise a distributed cataloguing system followng > along the model of DP. For each book "in the frame" a form would be provided > with spaces for the required items. When these were completed (and checked) > the data would then be transferred, in an agreed format--MARC or > otherwise,--to a file held within the books directory tree. In many cases > this information is provided at the time of proofreadng and then it seems to > be lost. > > Obviously some of the infomation might be easy to complete such as book or > serial. However other fields might need research such as key dates, author > bio etc. Also a meaningful synopsis would mean most likely reading the text > or abstracting a portion from another work. I could also see that > multilingual versions might be needed. I would think there are many who would > rise to the challenge of helping in such an endevour, > > Lynne > > > > On Tuesday 09 November 2004 12:26 pm, Alev Akman wrote: > > At 11:06 AM 11/9/2004, you wrote: > > >Andrew Sly wrote: > > >>Taken all together, the PG online catalog does present plently > > >>of information that can help people interact with the collection > > >>in meaningful ways; but it may make professional librarians > > >>roll their eyes. > > > > > >The design philosophy of the catalog database is: > > > > > > To help people find a book they may want to read. > > > > > >That includes both, people who already know which book they want and > > >people who want a suggestion. > > > > > >The catalog database was not designed to be a tool for professionals. But > > >this doesn't mean that I'm not willing to add some functions to help them > > >out, so long as those functions don't get in the way of the primary > > >functionality. > > > > > >Producing MARC records out of existing catalog entries seems to be a > > >pretty forward thing. > > > > Obviously it is not an _easy_ pretty forward thing! Otherwise, the whole > > thing would be in place by now. > > > > On the other hand, PG database may not be capable of the Z39.50 imports but > > there are many MANY (if not all!) library cataloging software packages that > > will do it in a short time. The advantage of importing from the existing > > catalog entries is that we have our pick of what fits our needs for > > especially the subject fields. Of course there is always work to edit and > > customize them for the PG user database. > > > > I don't see why we can't have a commercial software to do most of the work > > and keep the existing catalog as a backup. > > > > And for the record, I have been involved in the PG cataloging effort for > > more than six years and anyone who says I am not interested in it any more > > is clearly not aware of the full facts. It may be quite disappointing when > > one's years of volunteer efforts have been deleted with the "new > > improvements"! > > > > Alev. > > an "official" librarian > > > > > Importing other people's MARC into our database will be much hairier. > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Marcello Perathoner > > >webmaster(a)gutenberg.org > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >gutvol-d mailing list > > >gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > > >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > > >Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 10/25/2004 > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >

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Re: [gutvol-d] [BP] The Future of eBooks
by D. Starner 10 Nov '04

10 Nov '04

Marcello Perathoner writes: > The design philosophy of the catalog database is: > > To help people find a book they may want to read. It does a pretty horrid job at that, then. If you don't know what you're looking for, it's very hard to find it. One step might be making the list of LoC classifications available, so you can scroll down to the list of histories. When I'm looking for something to read, I often look for a list of science-fiction or mysteries. Being in a college library, I miss the spine stickers loudly identifying the genre of the fiction. PG's catalog has nothing in that direction. Another thing I will do is to browse the stacks. I guess if the LoC classifications are available, that would be possible. The thing I would honestly like is the Amazon-style "if you liked this, you might like ...". I don't mean to be harsh in this email, but I'm having a real hard time believing your statement, because the catalog so badly sucks at it. Not that most of the library catalogs I've dealt with have been good at it, but it's never been stated as a design philosophy for them. -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

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Re: [gutvol-d] draft TEI conventions and larger example file
by D. Starner 10 Nov '04

10 Nov '04

<Jeroen.Hellingman(a)kabelfoon.nl> writes: > Isn't sco gaelic? No. sco has the name "Scots"; gd has the name "Scottish Gaelic". Since they're distinct codes, sco must be the germanic language. > I use foreign exclusively as a holder for the lang attribute. My problem with that, is it means there's no way to transform a document such that the foreign words are marked differently from the emphasized words, or not marked at all. -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

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Test message why not going through
by Norm Wolcott 06 Nov '04

06 Nov '04

This is a test message which gets scrambled somehow on the way why? nwolcott2(a)post.harvard.edu Friar Wolcott, Gutenberg Abbey, Sherwood Forrest

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Re: [gutvol-d] New Jules Verne Team at Dist Proofreaders
by D. Starner 05 Nov '04

05 Nov '04

Dave Fawthrop writes: > And so looks a shambles on Agent set to a80. MIME has been a standard - an RFC - for quite some time now. I'm not sure that mail agents that don't support that should still be a big concern. -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

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New Jules Verne Team at Dist Proofreaders
by Norm Wolcott 05 Nov '04

05 Nov '04

A new team Jules Verne 2005 has been set up at DP to help get Verne online by the 100th anniversary in March 2005. DP members can either join the team or read and post messages without joining at http://www.pgdp.net/c/stats/teams/tdetail.php?tid=353 Team members can assist with a number of activities connected with the project. Bi-lingual persons are especially needed for the french texts, and clarification of obscure references. nwolcott2(a)post.harvard.edu Friar Wolcott, Gutenberg Abbey, Sherwood Forrest

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[gutvol-d] thoroughly depressed, and off to collect thoughts in blog
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 03 Nov '04

03 Nov '04

well, i am thoroughly depressed by the specter of four more years of george w. anyway, i will be heading out of here shortly -- off to collect my thoughts and criticisms in a blog, instead of attempting to share them with you here, to be free of the incessant swirl of noise and flack that my detractors here seem to love to throw around me -- so does anyone have any questions for me before i leave? -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] PG TEI
by Joshua Hutchinson 03 Nov '04

03 Nov '04

----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Lawton <scott_bulkmail(a)productarchitect.com> > > > Also, as noted in http://classicosm.com/xml/feedbackonpgtei.html: In the PG license, section numbers such as "1.A." should appear on the same line as the text that follows -- per the original and to avoid wasting space. > I agree. I'll work on an updated footer to forward on to Marcello. > > > A few notes based on a quick look: > - class=dgp does seem to be overused. > - span class="hi" style="font-variant: small-caps;" is a bit much; how about span class="smallCaps"? > You've got a point. I'll add a todo item to go through the default style and make it more intuitive (ie change the class names where appropriate) and create classes for things like small caps. > I also hate that the HTML is wrapped at 78 (or whatever) chars. I suppose few people will edit the output, but it seems like a wasteful throwback. Don't people have editors that wrap text??? > That you can blame on me. I used Tidy to rewrap everything because of the lots and lots of playing I did with the source code. Marcello's converter leaves the line breaks that were in the original XML source in place. > > Option #1 - Convert the rend="indent" markup to & emsp ; & emsp ; (remove spaces for use). Pro: Degrades gracefully on non-CSS enabled browsers like Lynx. Con: Treats the indent as content. > > I think the XHTML version should be completely modern, e.g. here's one way to indent using CSS: > .indent {margin-left:40px; margin-right:40px} > > There are benefits to an "old fashioned HTML" version, but let's make that a different file, probably 4.01 transitional. > I'm hoping for more discussion on this. I've had fairly heated discussion at DP on it. > > > > >5 - I used <lb /> to indicate a blank line of text (commonly called a thoughtbreak over at DP). Marcello's documentation indicates this isn't what it is truly meant for, though. Anyone see a problem with this implementation? Or see an improvement we should use instead? > > Marcello suggested that a closing and opening div creates a blank line; I'm not convinced that's a good idea in general. > I don't like it definitely from the point of view of having to create the markup. > ===== > > Misc. questions: > > * The following looks like a (minor) error: > <head>Letter XVII</head> > <p>LETTER XVII.</p> > > The latter looks redundant. > My bad. Must have done a copy/paste into the head tag instead of a cut/paste there. > * Was the italics in the original here? > > <p><hi rend="sc">Andover</hi>, <emph>May</emph> 30, 1854.</p> > I went by the text provided by DP on this. I didn't check closely to the original on this type of thing. > * Does the original really have several pages with no paragraph breaks? Yep. Makes for easy reading, huh? ;) Josh

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PG TEI
by Joshua Hutchinson 03 Nov '04

03 Nov '04

Good afternoon, everyone! I have a few things I want to try to get a consensus on as to HOW we want to handle some aspects of the PG TEI master document. Some of the questions will pertain to specific people (such as the automatic inclusion of the PG header/footer) and some will pertain to everyone interested in PG TEI. The TEI master I am using for the basis of this discussion is available at http://home.alltel.net/hutch2000/sunny/start.xml. So, without further ado! 1 - Currently, Marcello's online converter (TEI -> HTML) automatically adds a PG standard header and footer. (http:\\home.alltel.net/hutch2000/sunny/sunny.html) It looks nicer (to my eyes anyway) than the monospaced header and footer that the whitewashers currently use. However, is this a "bad thing" in the eyes of the whitewashers? As near as I can tell, the only people of information that will need to be manually added by the whitewashers is the EBook number that is assigned to this text. If this is placed in the TEI master, then it is automatically put into the HTML version when it is run through the TEI -> HTML converter. If this is an "ok thing" but needs some work ... what needs changed? Jim, you're a vocal whitewasher! Rip this apart! (This question also includes suggestions for style improvements to the header/footer, too.) *** 2 - The version I have posted above has two rather significant CSS changes from the style used in Marcello's converter. A) The margins have been set to 10% whitespace on the right and left. This is a fairly arbitrary number arrived at because it is the "defacto" standard at DP. Suggestions/comments? B) The paragraph markup has been changed back to HTML standard. Marcello's original style more closely resembles TeX formatting, where there is no white space between paragraphs and each paragraph is indented. This was jarring to me, hence the change. Again, suggestions/comments? The rest of the style is as Marcello's converter made it. It is a bit verbose by some people's standards (almost everything has a class attribute), but this can be a very good thing because it now allows CSS to affect the layout/look of nearly every aspects of the document. *** 3 - The TEI master uses rend="indent" markup in the poetry. This validates fine, but currently the TEI -> HTML converter basically ignores the indent markup. What I want to address here is how we want to have those indents converted. TEI master markup: <lg> <l>"I thank the goodness and the grace</l> <l rend="indent">That on my birth have smiled,</l> <l>And made me in these Christian days</l> <l rend="indent">A happy English child."</l> </lg> Option #1 - Convert the rend="indent" markup to & emsp ; & emsp ; (remove spaces for use). Pro: Degrades gracefully on non-CSS enabled browsers like Lynx. Con: Treats the indent as content. Option #2 - Convert the rend="indent" markup to CSS markup equivalent (my mind is going blank right now or I'd give an example). Option #3 - Any other ideas how to handle this? *** 4 - I used <quote rend="display"> markup for blockquotes. This looks fine to me. However, in previous discussions, some people did not like the rend="display" for this purpose. As far as I am concerned, it works and doesn't seem to be a problem, but I'm willing to hear opposing arguments. *** 5 - I used <lb /> to indicate a blank line of text (commonly called a thoughtbreak over at DP). Marcello's documentation indicates this isn't what it is truly meant for, though. Anyone see a problem with this implementation? Or see an improvement we should use instead? *** 6 - This work has a small example of drama markup. It is very simple markup (verse with no partial lines), but it seems to work well. I don't have any problems with it, but I also know that my experience with drama markup is extremely limited. Any suggestions/concerns? *** 7 - The only other thing I can remember that was at all out of the ordinary with this text was the retention of small caps. I used the rend="sc" markup and it worked just as I expected it to in the TEI -> HTML converter. Any suggestions/comments/improvements? *** I'm sure I'll remember something on the way home tonight that I forgot to mention, but that's what I can think of right now for discussion. I'm looking forward to everyone's input. Josh

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pglaf.org settings might block some messages
by Greg Newby 03 Nov '04

03 Nov '04

I've heard in the past 2 weeks from two people who discovered that their mail server settings resulted in pglaf.org bouncing their messages to gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org (not necessarily through fault of their own). If you've sent messages to pglaf.org, but are not sure if they got through, you might want to send a test message or check the list archives (http://lists.pglaf.org) You can set your own list settings to get your own messages, and/or an acknowledgement message. The setting we use is to enforce the standard that mail servers (aka MTAs) must have reverse DNS entries (also known as PTRs). Several of the big ISPs, such as AOL, enforce this rule. Others don't. Mail from addresses with no corresponding PTR is (at pglaf.org) well over 99.9% likely to be spam. Over 10,000 such messages are blocked per week on the pglaf.org server using this single rule. The postfix server at pglaf.org has had this setting since the spring, and while I'm sure it has bounced some legitimate messages, it's only recently that anyone has brought any false positives to my attention. -- Greg

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