Bowerbird wrote:
jon noring said:
Bowerbird is the expert on this [zml]
jon, i know what they teach you in the dale carnegie courses about "how to win friends and influence people" is to flatter people's egos until they will do whatever you want them to...
and i grant it is astoundingly effective.
but that crap doesn't work with me -- precisely because i'm hip to it -- so you shouldn't waste your breath...
Why not? <laugh/> You *are* the most knowledgeable expert here (as far as I know) on regularized plain text. You've done a lot of study on the structure of PG plain texts, and used that study to design the uniform ZML set of guidelines. This is a statement of truth. Anyway, why would I try to win you over? I'm only showing respect to the talents and contributions you've made to the ebook universe. You can accept or reject that respect as you see fit. I guess you have rejected it. So be it. I'm not hurt by your rejection.
and please stop making yourself look silly by trying to tell people all about z.m.l.,because you don't know jack about it...
Oh? Well, what you have published on ZML, I understand quite well. It is possible to map ZML to a particular XHTML vocabulary, and back to a canonically equivalent ZML. (It will also be trivial to convert ZML to OpenReader/OEBPS and back again.) So from that perspective I know it all too well. Anyway, as you've noted, even a 4th grader can understand ZML. I guess you believe that I never graduated from the third grade. <smile/>
but i'm still waiting to do that "remastering" until you markup fools throw away a lot more of your precious time and energy. a _smart_poker player doesn't show his hand too soon when he knows he's got the other players beat, he gets them to put their money in the pot first.
You know, if you instead worked *with* people (rather than viewing everyone else as enemies that you must outwit), and started a SourceForge project, assembled like-minded people, you'd be much further along, and would probably have won a lot more hearts and minds. You believe that your "go it alone" approach will win out, but it won't. I know ZML and all the "appz" you are writing will mean diddly-squat. First, ZML is not sufficient for mastering texts for multiple digital publication purposes. For example, you've not bothered to address how in ZML you will enable standardized intra- and inter-publication deep linking, a powerful ebook function (see, for example, OSoft's Thout Reader -- what they do *cannot* be done with regularized plain text.) Second, you've turned off so many people on so many ebook-related forums that even if you are able to demonstrate ZML to be the greatest thing since sliced bread (or chocolate pudding), it will be ignored by the world. I see a place for ZML in the ebook universe, but not as you do. The final arbiter of our differen viewpoints will be the future. Again, I believe you should open source your "appz" as part of a SourceForge project. I really do believe that's the best way to promote your system, build it the quickest, and increase the chances it will get embraced at some level in ebookdom. If you believe I am saying this in order to sabotage your effort, then you truly do live in a world I don't understand.
ok, now back to not talking to jon directly, since he moderates posts by michael hart over on his listserve, and i firmly believe that a pioneer like michael deserves more respect.
<laugh/> How many times have you replied to me when you said you'd no longer reply to me? I've rather enjoyed the (mostly) quiet times. Regarding the moderation issue, I posted about that last July (the communications are appended below for those interested). Anyway, John Mark Ockerbloom also moderates Michael (he moderates everyone) on his excellent Book People list, and I don't see Bowerbird complaining about that. Strange. Jon ********************************************************************* (here's Bowerbird's message after "discovering" I was, heaven forbid, moderating Michael Hart on The eBook Community. I follow it with my reply. Both dated 24 July 2005, and found in the gutvol-d archives, http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/2005-July/ Enjoy!
From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun Jul 24 12:09:32 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sun Jul 24 12:09:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] why is michael hart being censored? Message-ID: <1aa.3b127c5c.3015416c@aol.com>
a rather alarming thing has come to my attention. it seems that michael hart is being censored by jon noring over on jon's listserve. messages from michael appear to have to be "approved" before they are posted to the list. the evidence is sitting right there in the "headers" to see. jon, is this actually the case? i demand you confirm or deny. if so, i find it quite preposterous. love him or hate him, michael hart _invented_ e-books. when a lot of people were just flapping their mouths, michael sat down and started _typing_ various books into the computer and making them available globally, for _free_. and that's as in beer _and_ as in speech. if any person has earned the right to speak freely about electronic-books, michael has. (and let us remember that no one needs to "earn" this right in the first place; the right to speak freely is an inalienable human right -- one recognized in the charter of the united nations.) unless michael is allowed to post freely on jon's listserve, without having to go through the "mother may i" routine of having posts "approved" by jon or any other moderator, i -- for one -- will cease to converse with noring in any way. you've got until noon on monday to fix this egregious error, jon. -bowerbird ********************************************************************* (now for my reply)
From jon at noring.name Sun Jul 24 14:32:43 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun Jul 24 14:32:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] why is michael hart being censored? In-Reply-To: <1aa.3b127c5c.3015416c@aol.com> References: <1aa.3b127c5c.3015416c@aol.com> Message-ID: <928867381.20050724153243@noring.name>
Bowerbird wrote:
a rather alarming thing has come to my attention.
it seems that michael hart is being censored by jon noring over on jon's listserve.? messages from michael appear to have to be "approved" before they are posted to the list. the evidence is sitting right there in the "headers" to see.
jon, is this actually the case? i demand you confirm or deny.
if so, i find it quite preposterous.
What an odd message to gutvol-d! The timing is very strange, too. Answer below...
if any person has earned the right to speak freely about electronic-books, michael has.? (and let us remember that no one needs to "earn" this right in the first place; the right to speak freely is an inalienable human right -- one recognized in the charter of the united nations.)
unless michael is allowed to post freely on jon's listserve, without having to go through the "mother may i" routine of having posts "approved" by jon or any other moderator, i -- for one -- will cease to converse with noring in any way.
you've got until noon on monday to fix this egregious error, jon.
<laugh class="rotfl"/> First point: The eBook Community is slowly being moved over to full moderation, mainly because it has to -- to fight spam and email spoofing. Every day I'm deleting a score or more of spam. The reason why TeBC is mostly clean (vis-a-vis spam) is because of my efforts to keep it clean. With over 2800 subscribers and growing, with links to it all over the Internet, TeBC is a big target for spammers, spoofers, and virus/trojan distributors. TeBC home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ebook-community/ All new subscribers are automatically being put into moderation. Only some of the very old-timers are still on "grandfather clause", but that will change, too, eventually. (It's only fair for everyone that all are treated equally.) Other plans call for forming an advisory committee to oversee the operation of TeBC, including group moderation and maintaining/revising message requirements. Note that posts from *anyone* are disallowed only if they blatantly disparage others rather than focusing on rational and polite discourse of the topic at hand (reminds me of someone else I know -- yes, I know, a disparaging remark), or are wholly off-topic (announcements of particular ebook titles are usually off-topic, for example.) Second point: There is a history why Michael is on moderation, but am not at liberty to discuss it. If Michael brings up his side of the story, then I'll feel more free to discuss it from my perspective (which I may or may not.) But at this time it is between Michael and I. It is nothing really serious, actually -- at the time moderation was started, I had decided to slowly move TeBC over to full moderation in a few year time period. When it comes to moderation, I don't treat Michael any differently than I treat any of the others who are on moderation. His many messages and his perspectives of things are much welcome. Although I disagree with a lot of his views and philosophical approach to digitizing the Public Domain and am pretty vocal about it (I also agree with him on many things), I do respect him and his accomplishments. He is a welcome and honored participant in the eBook Community. Let's look at some statistics. Of the last 1354 messages to TeBC (all the posts since 01 Feb 2005), guess who posted more to TeBC than anyone else? You guessed right: Michael Hart with 160 messages, about 12% of the total. The next most prolific posters were 102, 63 (yours truly), 56 and 51, and then a few dozen more people posting fewer messages in that time frame. (I'm sure Michael will appreciate the statistics showing him to be #1 on TeBC.) Of course, the best person to answer this is Michael. He may not like being moderated -- who does? A few of the many messages he has posted over time were disallowed, but the total percentage is very low -- I won't go into the specifics but will say moderation was done mostly to prevent certain always-emotional topics, like copyright, from spiraling out of control, so I temporarily closed discussion on those topics. Interestingly, the copyright discussion is now heavy again on TeBC, and I'm keeping a close watch on it to halt it if it spirals out of control (which may filter out some of Michael's messages since copyright is a big concern of his.) Third point (a couple questions actually): Btw, should John Mark Ockerbloom also not moderate Michael on John's "Book People" list"? He moderates everyone, including Michael. Should Michael be given a pass because he is *the* Michael Hart? Note that I am moderated along with everyone else on BP, and I have no difficulty with that. I admire John's dedication in keeping discussion on Book People focused and civilized. Bowerbird, do you believe that all public forums should have no moderation nor kick anyone off for repeated and uncontrolled egregious behavior towards others (i.e., ad hominem attacks and focusing on the person's motives rather than on what they said), thereby disrupting the forum discussion? ********************************************************************* Anyway, to summarize and focus on the topic of this gutvol-d thread, I take fair moderation of TeBC seriously. And Michael is moderated no differently than everyone else. If anything, I cut him a little more slack than the others. Jon Noring [of course, the threatened Monday deadline passed, and I am still here. <smile/>]