keith, you seem to be having "theoretical" discussions on 3 or 4 vague phantom topics, while i'm talking about stuff which either actually _exists_ or has been solidly proposed. and there's no sense continuing when we're so badly out of sync. so let us summarize and finish. 1. i have systems, online and off, which are simple and work nicely. 2. keith is too busy to code stuff, but seems to have many opinions. 3. jim likes using bloatware, but is too cheap to buy commercial-grade. 4. lee wants someone else to do all his .html markup for him first. 5. don knows databases, but hasn't generalized from his d.p. experience the conclusion that any system which requires administrators will become corrupt because of the power-seekers. 6. tar-pits are sticky places. 7. sometimes listserves can be too. 8. i forget what 8 was 4. 9. number 9, number 9... 10. you need 10 items for a top-10. 11. is my favorite number. -bowerbird