On Mon, 19 Apr 2010, Jim Adcock wrote: Apple has assured me over and over there is no DRM on our files. If you have any evidence to the opposite, we'd love to hear it. More below:
What DRM is put on PG files? I thought the DRM was in the reader program, not the files.
DRM on books in my experience is typically implemented as a device-specific encryption such that even if you move an ebook file to a different machine you own that machine cannot read the file. A hidden key say "serial number" on a particular hardware device is used as a decryption key to allow decryption of the file encrypted specifically for that device. Thus for example if one buys an in-copyright book from Amazon and you physically copy that ebook file from one Kindle you own to another Kindle you own the second Kindle still will not be able to read the ebook file for the first Kindle. While Amazon will typically allow you to read one purchased book on six devices simultaneously -- including on Kindle for the PC, Kindle for the Mac, Kindle for the Blackberry, etc, each of those ebook files has to be downloaded separately from Amazon because each comes with a unique device-specific encryption. Not everything from Amazon needs to have DRM, the publisher who uploads to Amazon has the right to specify "I don't want DRM on my book." Further, the encryption schemes are typically owned proprietary to a particular company or consortium and discussing or distributing information about those encryption schemes is against the law. And thus ePub specs for example doesn't include description of a ePub specific DRM scheme rather each distributor of ePub files can implement their own proprietary and mutually incompatible DRM scheme such that owning multiple ePub devices is not sufficient to ensure that one can purchase an ePub book for one device and read it on another device. And if you have an ePub library of purchased books that you read on your blackberry or what have you and now you want to move that library to your new iPad well too bad because its probably not going to work. Nor can you resell your ebooks to someone else on eBay when you are done with them.
Even without DRM as far as I know all storage on iPad is currently tied to a particular app so even if you have a non-DRM "PG" book under Apples' iBooks applet you can't say "Gee let me open that up in Stanza because Stanza offers a better ebook reader" -- you can't do that because the iPad ties the book file to the particular reader applet. If Apple were to allow book transfer via USB then god forbid you could at least move non-DRM books from one iPad reader applet to a different iPad reader applet!
The next time you get your hands on an iPad, or even ask friends to try it for you, just do the little search they have and try a few obvious things like "books" "ebooks" and similar things.
Sorry, perhaps "friends" was too strong a word but I thought what I have been asking here is if anyone in PG or DP land has actually found an applet that will allow them to directly download a free book from the PG website or other websites using wifi and read it in a manner that makes you happy. Or is it necessary, as in the case of Apple's own iBooks applet, to *always* tie the distribution path of the applet to the applet itself? This may seem like a strange question except that Apple already HAS shut down distribution of books by USB except via the iTunes monopoly.
Until you have at least tried the examples I went and found for you, that allowed ME to read AND download directly from gutenberg.org.... I have nothing further to offer you on this subject. You are leading me to believe I was correct in the extreme when that thought came to me that you are spending more time complaining about all this than actually doing your own research. Please. . .get out there and do something between your messages so I or we don't have the feeling this is a totally useless exercise from your experimental labs.
As I have said so many times, I don't care who redistributes PG, from Tea Party people to Sarah Palin or Tina Fey. . .period.
Again, I acknowledge that *you* don't care, but I do: I want to be able to get books and publications directly from a variety of web sites via wifi,
This does not remove any from your "variety of web sites via wifi. I told you which Apps you could use, and you pretend I never said it. Please go back and read it all again, do your homework, and prepare for a real conversation. You are NOT conversing here, you are not sharing the wealth. Look up the roots of communicate.
and I don't want the applet nor the device to tell me where I can get MOBI or ePub books from anymore than I would want a web browser tell what HTML I
I read all sorts of stuff with Safari and Opera Lite, which is your problem? Please experiment and cite your specific examples that we can recreate.
am allowed read from what HTML sites. This is the ebook version of "net neutrality" as opposed to buying a device from Big Brother and letting Big Brother then tell you that you can only use that device to buy MORE product from Big Brother. Even Big Bill allows me to install a large variety of reader apps on my netbook say, right click on some ebook I see anywhere on the internet, and that book automagically opens in my choice of reader app.
And you never tried to install those reader apps I mentioned. . . . So what right have you to complain? That they didn't install themselves? I'm sure you would be complaining even more if they did. That they didn't SAVE the files by themselves? Again, I am sure you would be complaining even more if they did. What is it you want?!?!?!? You haven't SAID you want anything I haven't found for you. Yet you have refused to acknowledge those efforts. No thanks means no thanks.
An apology for when you have been confusing is also appropriate, with no need to blame me or Apple.
I apologize for having difficultly unambiguously discussing terminology that Appple chooses to be deliberately ambiguous as a cute marketing device.
Is that a "non-denial denial?"
It worked for me, but then I gave it a few tries. However, the first two both worked, as did all the others made for iPad, though I have not tried each one in great detail, but enough to bring up books I know I typed in.
You are I have differing ideas of what "it worked" means. For example on a Kindle, which again is also not the most "unlocked" device in the world, I can web browse to www.gutenberg.org, click on a MOBI title there, and it
Are you saying you sent to gutenberg.org and tried this without success? Are you telling us what program you used in that effort? Are asking us to try this for you? Still, I'm not sure why one brand should support another proprietary format, but I'll try it if you ask, after you thank me for my previous efforts from your previous questions.
"works", or I can go to FreeKindleBooks, or to Feedbooks, etc -- my choice of publisher -- and if it's a "free book" I can get it -- it works. I can't get it if it's a "for pay" book because Amazon has locked up that distribution channel -- which is not a good thing. As opposed to Nook where none of this works at all except the direct "for pay" path from B&N.
You need to be more specific with your requests and challenges. You say what I mean by "it works for me" is not what you mean for you, but you are not specific about what it is you really want. Does every program do everything the way I want? No. Can I manage to get the results I want? Yes? Are you willing to do what it takes to get what you want? ???
I really hate to say this, as you'll probably accuse me of flame/trashing but it sounds as if you have spent more time complaining here than in the actual testing of the product.
We spent about four hours playing with the iPad and trying to get it to do what we wanted it to do -- namely direct access to free ebooks on particular websites on the internet.
You still have refused to name what programs you tried on what sites, and what you tried to do with them. You also have refused to comment on the programs I have suggested already. You are not encouraging me, or anyone else, to try to help you further.
In that amount of time I was already writing software to freely distribute books on the Kindle when I got my first Kindle Dec 2007.
Tell me, honestly, have to asked Apple for the documentation on how to write for the iPad? There were lots of people working for months on Apps before it came out.
I'm sure you know that Apple wants to control how files get to iPads.
Yes, the only question is just how badly "locked down" their device is in
Ah. . .now we come to the point!!! It's not the "programs" or the "ebooks" you are complaining about, it's "how badly 'locked down` their device is". . .!!! See??? You weren't complaining just about DRM on eBooks. . . . You seem to have a whole pile of axes to grind, and whenever anyone shows you how one axe will do what you want, you switch to another, and another: books, programs, the device itself, Microsoft, etc. I did ALL the things you said. You haven't even gone back and tried ONE of them. Yet you continue to act as if you are right in there testing.
the matter -- and whether or not they will take steps again in the future to force an increase in that "lock down".
Since I haven't been able to get you to state specifics on the present, I am certainly NOT going to engage in a purely hypothetical discussion, on this, or perhaps even other such things you may include. Let's deal with reality before dealing with the other stuff, ok?
Again, what I want is the ebook version of "net neutrality" -- I want to have an ebook reader applet which is independent of ebook publisher. I don't want to have to acquire and use a different ebook reader applet for each book I want to purchase -- or acquire freely on the internet. There are WAY more internet sites offering interesting books and other publications that there are organizations willing to write applets for the iPad!
Again, _I_ have surfed to "normal" eBook sites and grabbed eBooks on an iPad. I even told you about it. . . . I'm not sure you are paying much attention, and this is very likely to be my last message to you on this subject, perhaps for quite some time.
I thought you already had managed to "try these things without sending my $500 to Jobs for the privilege of *testing* his offering. . . .
Sure, I borrowed a friend and his iPad for four hours of lack of success trying various approaches after which he ran away screaming....
Just because YOU can't drive a certain car, doesn't make it undriveable. Four hours??? And you never managed to download ONE eReader App??? Something is seriously wrong here. Either with the experimentation or the reporting of it, or both.
Then how did I manage to download them from the store?
Sorry again more Apple cuteness, there is the "Apple Store" virtual on the internet, and there is the "Apple Store" bricks and mortar at the Mall. I can download software from the virtual Apple Store to my desktop, but then I don't have a physical iPad to test it on.
You said you had one for four hours. You never managed to do what most people do in the first ten minutes? Including myself?
Or I can go to the Mall where they have a physical iPad, but then I don't have permission to download and install applets from the virtual Apple Store. And I've used up my friendship for right now with the "bricks and mortar" friend who has a "bricks and mortar" iPad...
You are saying they won't let you test these features at the mall??? I have a strong feeling you didn't ask them for very much help.
You can do this with Goodreader.
OK, good suggestion -- their website looks promising I will dig into it more -- thanks!
I did mention Goodreader earlier, did I not? And Wattpad? If this pretty much one line reply had been forthcoming back then, this just might have been a totally different conversation. Think about honey vs vinegar. . .eh?
Times will change, people will jailbreak iPads and all. . . .
I am hoping that the future OS in the works for iPad may make things less restrictive. Not personally interested in hacking anything to get increased access. Hacking to my taste is incompatible with creating texts for PG....
And just how do think most of the great apps in history got started???
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