I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In particular I refer to these two paragraphs: "All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone living in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your personal use for free. "Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You may copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the license page for details." This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before. Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan of the Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine. One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider this one.) A different complaint reached me a few days ago:
It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the web site are junior or senior high students.
I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so. But, as I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer (not necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for opinions. More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG is not just a free book download service. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Perhaps the addition of some sort of tongue-in-cheek disclaimer? (NB: Project Gutenberg neither acknowledges nor endorses the drinking of beer by anyone, including but not limited to minors and adults.), for example. Makes the point while rolling eyes that we have to do so. Dave Doty
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 While I doubt that a word on our web page is likely to change the drinking habits of anyone, it might still be a good idea to change it, if only for the sake of appearance. I don't see a problem with changing it to "free lunch". :) Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 05:55 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote:
I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In particular I refer to these two paragraphs:
"All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone living in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your personal use for free.
"Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You may copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the license page for details."
This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before.
Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan of the Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine.
One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider this one.)
A different complaint reached me a few days ago:
It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the web site are junior or senior high students.
I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so. But, as I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer (not necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for opinions.
More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG is not just a free book download service.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
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Free lunch is always good, i eat a lot of food (high body metabolism) so having free food always works for me :-p Jared Aaron Cannon wrote on 05/10/2005, 4:47 PM:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
While I doubt that a word on our web page is likely to change the drinking habits of anyone, it might still be a good idea to change it, if only for the sake of appearance. I don't see a problem with changing it to "free lunch". :)
Sincerely Aaron Cannon
I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In
I refer to these two paragraphs:
"All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone
in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your personal use for free.
"Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You may copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the license page for details."
This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before.
Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan of the Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine.
One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider
At 05:55 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote: particular living this one.)
A different complaint reached me a few days ago:
It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the web site are junior or senior high students.
I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so.
I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer (not necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for opinions.
More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea
But, as that PG
is not just a free book download service.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers.
iD8DBQFDRGZiI7J99hVZuJcRAs8pAJ44Vn1ilxuTNNCfKmOOVN3qjQsAkACg+Jww tdR+Qs37H0ziBF48mLspRB8= =idWe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
Aaron Cannon wrote:
I don't see a problem with changing it to "free lunch". :)
I hope I need not remind you that it *is* the holy month of Ramadan, and therefore fasting is expected. A devout Muslim might well be offended by your tacit encouragement to break the fast by eating a free lunch! 'Course beer's no better there. I think "free as in beer" is a well-enough established term that we can use it safely... or do we have to start self censoring "drunk with power" and such like? Go with your first instinct and use "free as in beer". It's the right thing to do. My bet is that the original complainer was just taking the piss. If he/she wasn't, there's guarantied lots to offend within the PG collection itself, so maybe its better that such people self-select out. How are we gonna feel when people start whingeing about the actual *content*? Do we start Bowdlerizing *all* of it? ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan <gbuchana@rogers.com> Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 08:46 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote:
I hope I need not remind you that it *is* the holy month of Ramadan, and therefore fasting is expected. A devout Muslim might well be offended by your tacit encouragement to break the fast by eating a free lunch!
LOL. Point taken. We can't please every one. So, perhaps we should just leave it alone, like you suggest. Sincerely Aaron Cannon
--
E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDRK0wI7J99hVZuJcRAomTAJ9DZQaka1xkrFePK6gaZJ7BTsiRcACfQvgu zcfELJxaGicqvPOfxlbGlsk= =nNDa -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
< extracted >
More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG is not just a free book download service.
Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like "free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice. I think there are plenty of alternatives: "Fostering the Public Domain" "Expanding the Public Domain" "Thousands of Free eBooks" "The World's Great Literature" "Produced by Thousands of Volunteers" What about a rotating marquee? -- Greg < original > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:55:18AM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In particular I refer to these two paragraphs:
"All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone living in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your personal use for free.
"Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You may copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the license page for details."
This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before.
Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan of the Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine.
One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider this one.)
A different complaint reached me a few days ago:
It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the web site are junior or senior high students.
I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so. But, as I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer (not necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for opinions.
More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG is not just a free book download service.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:44:17 -0700, Greg Newby <gbnewby@pglaf.org> wrote: | < extracted > | > More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free | > lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea | > that PG is not just a free book download service. | | Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like | "free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice. | | I think there are plenty of alternatives: | "Fostering the Public Domain" | "Expanding the Public Domain" | "Thousands of Free eBooks" | "The World's Great Literature" | "Produced by Thousands of Volunteers" | | What about a rotating marquee? Just to point out that "free as in beer," must be a purely American expression which means nothing to the English, and I am unable to work out exactly why beer should be free. -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
Just to point out that "free as in beer," must be a purely American expression which means nothing to the English, and I am unable to work out exactly why beer should be free.
Not at all. It is an expression common amongst the "open source" community world-wide. "Free as in beer" is just a flippant expression to disambiguate free of charge from free of legal encumbrance. The matched pair are: Free as in speach -- No technical, legal or ethical encumbrance. Free as in beer -- No charge. Nearly all of PG is free as in speach. "Free as in beer" also has the extra connotation of a free thing that really isn't or should not be free -- maybe like that first "free" shot of drugs. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre http://freeasinspeechandbeer.com/drupal/ ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan <gbuchana@rogers.com> Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:40:49 -0400, Gardner Buchanan <gbuchana@rogers.com> wrote: | Dave Fawthrop wrote: | | > Just to point out that "free as in beer," must be a purely American | > expression which means nothing to the English, and I am unable to work out | > exactly why beer should be free. | | Not at all. It is an expression common amongst the "open source" | community world-wide. "Free as in beer" is just a flippant expression | to disambiguate free of charge from free of legal encumbrance. The | matched pair are: | | Free as in speach -- No technical, legal or ethical encumbrance. | Free as in beer -- No charge. | | Nearly all of PG is free as in speach. | | "Free as in beer" also has the extra connotation of a free thing | that really isn't or should not be free -- maybe like that first | "free" shot of drugs. Only in *some* parts of the US. What you are saying is that the rest of the world does not matter and can be ignored :-( -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| Not at all. It is an expression common amongst the "open source" | community world-wide. "Free as in beer" is just a flippant expression | to disambiguate free of charge from free of legal encumbrance. The | matched pair are:
Only in *some* parts of the US. What you are saying is that the rest of the world does not matter and can be ignored :-(
I can assure you that "free beer" is very well understood all over Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The word 'Freibier' is even in the "Duden" (the most authoritative German dictionary). -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Greg Newby wrote:
More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG is not just a free book download service.
Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like "free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice.
I think there are plenty of alternatives: "Fostering the Public Domain" "Expanding the Public Domain" "Thousands of Free eBooks" "The World's Great Literature" "Produced by Thousands of Volunteers"
What about a rotating marquee?
Presently the PG site is just a place where people go to download books. I think we should make more of a political stance with the PG web site. Disney employs a few senators to "Shrink the Public Domain", we should at least leverage the popularity of PG to build up awareness in the population that "Public Domain" is not a thing that comes to you like the sunrise after a slept-thru night. "Expanding the Public Domain" is a good slogan, but first you have to explain what "Public Domain" is, that it isn't about downloading freebies but about the people owning and using the literary works their culture is built upon. What I really want to do is to put up a good paragraph on the main page (maybe a teaser on every page) and build a section about the cultural/educational/economical advantages of short copyright terms (and maybe some serious discussion about DRM / proprietary vs. open source / software patents etc.) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Some further possibilities: "Here the Public Domain becomes Public" "Publishing the Public Domain" "Bringing the Public Domain to the Public" "Public Domain made Public" "Brings Public Domain to its owner" The idea being that the "public domain" with PG is no longer an abstract concept, but a reality. Carlo
On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 04:40:10PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Greg Newby wrote:
More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG is not just a free book download service.
Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like "free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice.
I think there are plenty of alternatives: "Fostering the Public Domain" "Expanding the Public Domain" "Thousands of Free eBooks" "The World's Great Literature" "Produced by Thousands of Volunteers"
What about a rotating marquee?
Presently the PG site is just a place where people go to download books. I think we should make more of a political stance with the PG web site.
I'm sympathetic to this (obviously), though we need to recognize that not everyone who reads or creates our eBooks has the same political views. (The types of political statements MH has included in some newsletters resulted in some criticism on the -d list, which makes it clear that people interested in PG do not share the same views.)
Disney employs a few senators to "Shrink the Public Domain", we should at least leverage the popularity of PG to build up awareness in the population that "Public Domain" is not a thing that comes to you like the sunrise after a slept-thru night.
"Expanding the Public Domain" is a good slogan, but first you have to explain what "Public Domain" is, that it isn't about downloading freebies but about the people owning and using the literary works their culture is built upon.
This is certainly "on mission" for us. (The second paragraph... not the part about buying our own senators, which might be enjoyable but somewhat too expensive.)
What I really want to do is to put up a good paragraph on the main page (maybe a teaser on every page) and build a section about the cultural/educational/economical advantages of short copyright terms (and maybe some serious discussion about DRM / proprietary vs. open source / software patents etc.)
(A) Why not just link to our pals? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain (B) There are lots of places for discussion of public domain... Union for the Public Domain is one...Creative Commons another. I think that *hosting* such a discussion is something we'd do less well than other parties. I think hosting educational materials (content, versus discussion) worthwhile. (C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above. -- Greg
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 08:55 PM 10/25/2005, you wrote:
I'm sympathetic to this (obviously), though we need to recognize that not everyone who reads or creates our eBooks has the same political views. (The types of political statements MH has included in some newsletters resulted in some criticism on the -d list, which makes it clear that people interested in PG do not share the same views.)
I think it's important to distinguish between the views which MH put forward and the political views of PG. MH published political statements which had nothing to do with Ebooks or the public domain. It was the total lack of relevancy to PG and their potential to drive away volunteers which was objected to. On the other hand, publishing political views which are inline with the mission of PG just makes sense. I doubt anyone will be surprised if we put something on our web site which em plies that we are in favor of shortening copyright terms. Sincerely Aaron Cannon
Disney employs a few senators to "Shrink the Public Domain", we should at least leverage the popularity of PG to build up awareness in the population that "Public Domain" is not a thing that comes to you like the sunrise after a slept-thru night.
"Expanding the Public Domain" is a good slogan, but first you have to explain what "Public Domain" is, that it isn't about downloading freebies but about the people owning and using the literary works their culture is built upon.
This is certainly "on mission" for us. (The second paragraph... not the part about buying our own senators, which might be enjoyable but somewhat too expensive.)
What I really want to do is to put up a good paragraph on the main page (maybe a teaser on every page) and build a section about the cultural/educational/economical advantages of short copyright terms (and maybe some serious discussion about DRM / proprietary vs. open source / software patents etc.)
(A) Why not just link to our pals? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain
(B) There are lots of places for discussion of public domain... Union for the Public Domain is one...Creative Commons another. I think that *hosting* such a discussion is something we'd do less well than other parties. I think hosting educational materials (content, versus discussion) worthwhile.
(C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above.
-- Greg
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Greg Newby wrote:
Presently the PG site is just a place where people go to download books. I think we should make more of a political stance with the PG web site.
I'm sympathetic to this (obviously), though we need to recognize that not everyone who reads or creates our eBooks has the same political views. (The types of political statements MH has included in some newsletters resulted in some criticism on the -d list, which makes it clear that people interested in PG do not share the same views.)
Because they were totally unrelated to PG, like wearing headscarves. I don't think anybody that works for PG advocates longer copyright terms or stricter DRM. The mission of PG is to make more ebooks available, shortening copyright terms is an ideal way to achieve that.
(A) Why not just link to our pals? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain
(B) There are lots of places for discussion of public domain... Union for the Public Domain is one...Creative Commons another. I think that *hosting* such a discussion is something we'd do less well than other parties. I think hosting educational materials (content, versus discussion) worthwhile.
Wikipedia is NPOV. We should advocate shorter copyright terms.
(C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above.
I'm writing up a new page about "free" right now. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Marcello Perathoner wrote:
I don't think anybody that works for PG advocates longer copyright terms or stricter DRM.
I'm not so confident of that. I can easily imagine someone who advocates longer copyright terms or stricter DRM, who *also* agrees with PG's stated mission of encouraging the creation and distribution of ebooks. On the other hand, it seems unlikely that such a person would be comfortable with PG's "cultural norms", so (to almost agree with you) I would guess that the number working for PG would be relatively small. -Michael
Marcello Perathoner wrote:
(C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above.
I'm writing up a new page about "free" right now.
That's done. Now I'd like to expand on that with some good strong advocacy of shorter copyright terms. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 02:17:33PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Marcello Perathoner wrote:
(C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above.
I'm writing up a new page about "free" right now.
That's done.
Now I'd like to expand on that with some good strong advocacy of shorter copyright terms.
Unless I somehow missed some discussion, I didn't see any further commentary on this. The site at http://www.gutenberg.org has a somewhat revised look, no more "free beer," and a nice section on "No Cost of Freedom?" A minor fix I didn't see earlier to /freedom.php: " You can tell by reading the license inside the book. You may download a copyrighted book, but you are not allowed to give copies away." should be more like: " You can tell by reading the license inside the book. You may download a copyrighted book and give copies away, but might be limited in commercial uses and derivative works." Anyway, I like this, and hope others do too. Thanks!!! Also, the more prominent placing of the DONATE link *has* resulted in noticably more donations via PayPal. Most donations are smallish ($5-10), but sprinkled with $50 and $100 donations. This really helps to support our DVD/CD giveaways, book-buying, and other programs. -- Greg
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Greg Newby wrote:
Also, the more prominent placing of the DONATE link *has* resulted in noticably more donations via PayPal. Most donations are smallish ($5-10), but sprinkled with $50 and $100 donations. This really helps to support our DVD/CD giveaways, book-buying, and other programs.
That is very good news. Thanks for sharing. Andrew
Greg Newby wrote:
" You can tell by reading the license inside the book. You may download a copyrighted book, but you are not allowed to give copies away."
should be more like:
" You can tell by reading the license inside the book. You may download a copyrighted book and give copies away, but might be limited in commercial uses and derivative works."
Done.
Also, the more prominent placing of the DONATE link *has* resulted in noticably more donations via PayPal. Most donations are smallish ($5-10), but sprinkled with $50 and $100 donations. This really helps to support our DVD/CD giveaways, book-buying, and other programs.
What about a small writeup for the donations page that tells people what we do with their money? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Marcello Perathoner wrote on 07/12/2005, 10:21 AM:
What about a small writeup for the donations page that tells people what we do with their money?
That's not a bad idea, Marcello. People do like to know where their donations go to, and for what purpose. It's great that more people are donating, even if they only donate a small amount. Happy Holidays to everyone! Jared
On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 09:24:19PM -0800, Jared Buck wrote:
Marcello Perathoner wrote on 07/12/2005, 10:21 AM:
What about a small writeup for the donations page that tells people what we do with their money?
That's not a bad idea, Marcello. People do like to know where their donations go to, and for what purpose. It's great that more people are donating, even if they only donate a small amount.
Sure.... we do an annual balance sheet, but it's not that inspiring or informative. I'd list these items as "typical expenses:" - paying our 1/4-time office staff - sustaining our CD & DVD giveaways, by reimbursing volunteers for supplies and postal expenses - colocation and occasional expansion of our servers (pglaf.org and pgdp.net) - costs of doing business, including an annual accountant's fiscal review (we don't have enough money to require a real audit), not-for-profit registration in states that require it, and a few other federal and state bureaucratic necessities - reimbursing individuals for some books, nearly all of which go to Distributed Proofreaders. Our main rule is to not pay more than about $1 per printed book. Many individuals donate books without seeking reimbursement, too Some of the expenses we don't incur are: - legal expenses, other than our accountant. Our lawyers are volunteers - travel expenses, except rarely. Instead, volunteers work wherever they are, and we communicate via email - fundraising expenses, including purchasing mailing lists, sending giveaways, and so forth. We hope to have some sort of t-shirt or coffee mug that people can buy, someday, but keep devoting most of our efforts to making new eBooks - copyright research. We do all our own, using volunteer copyright experts - software, other than occasionally helping an active volunteer with OCR software. Our Web sites and content rely on home-grown and free open source software - office space and equipment. We're decentralized, and own very little equipment: a few page-fed scanners, a few servers, and not much else - board of directors salaries: they're all volunteers, too
participants (10)
-
Aaron Cannon -
Andrew Sly -
Carlo Traverso -
Dave Doty -
Dave Fawthrop -
Gardner Buchanan -
Greg Newby -
Jared Buck -
Marcello Perathoner -
Michael Dyck