jana said:
(So, _are_ we going to create "something valuable" now, or aren't we?...)
i am. you can help if you want.
How about you fix up the poetry next?
were you reading the list when i talked to jim? because the same thing applies to this advice. in order to know how to "fix up the poetry", i will need to know how you think it should be, as i'm not too good at the mind-reading stuff... take the .html file that contains some poetry, and rework the coding so it does what you want. then i'll know, unequivocally, what you want, so we won't have to cycle through a sequence of guesses.
Those prepended underscores really suck.
yeah, they do. but they cause correct indentation. so until we figure out some other way to do that, we'll be stuck with them. i could turn them white, but you know, there must be a better way to do it.
If I could choose how it were to look,
yeah, well, no, you can't really "choose" that. those stanzas were _printed_ in a certain way, so we now have to assume that's how sinclair wanted them to appear (although, realistically, it was probably entirely the printer's decision, but we have to take the only evidence we have), so we're kind of stuck with reproducing that...
http://z-m-l.com/go/tjbus/tjbusp009.html http://z-m-l.com/go/tjbus/tjbusp090.html http://z-m-l.com/go/tjbus/tjbusp192.html
i'm not a stickler for cloning the printed book, mind you, especially if there are good reasons for making a change, so if you can come up with some good reasons, i would be willing to listen. otherwise, though, let's try to reproduce the look.
I would want it centered on the "page" (screen, whatever), but with left-aligned lines.
ok, if you can find a way to work out that miracle, do please let me know. and the rest of the world. because that would require the viewer-program to have some knowledge that most of them don't seem to have, even though i believe they _should_. that is, the viewer-app doesn't know the page-size. it could be running on an iphone, on a kindle-dx, or on the 6-foot t.v. you have in your living-room. i think a viewer-app _should_ know that basic fact. but, you know, we have to work with what we have.
If you don't know how to do that,
it's not that _i_ "don't know how to do that"... it's that _nobody_ knows "how to do that"... as there are good reasons it cannot be done.
then just indent it a bit from the left. Using a margin or something, not underscores or non-breaking spaces.
what's wrong with non-breaking spaces? or white underscores? i mean, seriously. understand that i'm willing to do things however you suggest, providing i believe it to be a reasonable take on how to do it, and i'm eager to see what you come up with. but one thing you might want to consider is the case where a person copies text out of the browser-window. in most browsers, the indentation gets lost completely, which means that our nicely-and-correctly-indented poetry loses that nice and correct indentation. (so do block-quotes, just so you know that too.) so margins present their own sets of problems. (plus many viewer-programs mess with margins. i know, i know, they _shouldn't_. but they do.) anyway, you know, like i said, i will listen to you...
Because I don't wanna copy underscores or spaces when I copy and paste the poem.
except that they _do_ maintain the indentation... and people who care about poetry care about that. so, you know, i hope you can make them happy too.
What does a tilde in the original mean?
see if you can figure it out!
And whatever they mean, why are they kept in the converted version?
because i forgot they were in there, so i forgot that i had to remove them. they're harmless. pretend they're gone.
I'd also really like to have the dedication centered on the page, as it would be in a real book.
i assume you mean centered top-to-bottom? i will make fine-tuning adjustments like that at a later time, but i think they are too petty now... we have much bigger fish which need to be fried first. we're building a converter-program. remember? -bowerbird
On Feb 23, 2011, at 11:44, bowerbird@aol.com wrote:
were you reading the list when i talked to jim?
Some of it, I think. I get bored easily by bickering that doesn't lead anywhere.
in order to know how to "fix up the poetry", i will need to know how you think it should be, as i'm not too good at the mind-reading stuff...
How about you read the complete mail that you're replying to _before_ replying to every single sentence separately? I told you exactly how _I_ would want it to look.
those stanzas were _printed_ in a certain way, so we now have to assume that's how sinclair wanted them to appear [...]
http://z-m-l.com/go/tjbus/tjbusp009.html http://z-m-l.com/go/tjbus/tjbusp090.html http://z-m-l.com/go/tjbus/tjbusp192.html [...] I would want it centered on the "page" (screen, whatever), but with left-aligned lines.
If you actually look at those printed pages and compare them with what I asked for, you'll see that it was printed in the way I would want it to look. Or rather, the other way round: I would want it to look like most books print poetry.
ok, if you can find a way to work out that miracle, do please let me know. and the rest of the world.
Well, since I'm a nice person, I will point you to an example: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/35312 It is not perfect because I'm not willing to use tables just to have poetry centered nicely (which one could do if one were only interested in the look, but alas, I'm also interested in semantics, as far as that's possible in HTML), but it's still way, way better than your underscores.
that is, the viewer-app doesn't know the page-size.
No, but you _do_ know the approximate width of the poem, which is enough to approximately center it in HTML. As for epub and mobi, I'm fine with just having the poem set off from the left margin there, as it is in the example above.
it's that _nobody_ knows "how to do that"... as there are good reasons it cannot be done.
That's interesting. Why does it then work pretty well in the example above?
what's wrong with non-breaking spaces? or white underscores? i mean, seriously.
That I do _not_ want to copy them when I copy poetry. The poem in chapter 1 is not indented. It is just printed centered on the page. Thus, it should not be copied as: --- ______"Sudiev' kvietkeli, tu brangiausis; ______Sudiev' ir laime, man biednam, ______Matau — paskyre teip Aukszcziausis, ______Jog vargt ant svieto reik vienam!” --- like it currently is in your version, but as: --- "Sudiev' kvietkeli, tu brangiausis; Sudiev' ir laime, man biednam, Matau — paskyre teip Aukszcziausis, Jog vargt ant svieto reik vienam!” --- If you think that poetry with different indents should be copied with leading spaces (which I don't agree with, but that's okay, you don't have to share my opinions), then you can do those indents as non-breaking spaces, I guess. But _not_ the margin on the left that is just there because the poem is printed centered on the page. For the poem in chapter 16, I understand that some people (not I, but that's okay) would want to copy it as: --- "The vilest deeds, like poison weeds, Bloom well in prison air; It is only what is good in Man That wastes and withers there; Pale Anguish keeps the heavy gate, And the Warder is Despair.” --- instead of: --- "The vilest deeds, like poison weeds, Bloom well in prison air; It is only what is good in Man That wastes and withers there; Pale Anguish keeps the heavy gate, And the Warder is Despair.” --- but I'm pretty sure no-one would want to copy it as: --- ______"The vilest deeds, like poison weeds, ___________Bloom well in prison air; ______It is only what is good in Man ___________That wastes and withers there; ______Pale Anguish keeps the heavy gate, ___________And the Warder is Despair.” ---
but one thing you might want to consider is the case where a person copies text out of the browser-window. in most browsers, the indentation gets lost completely, which means that our nicely-and-correctly-indented poetry loses that nice and correct indentation.
Yeah, right. Remember that _I_ started talking about the indentation, not you. And that your poetry actually doesn't do it the way I would expect it to, because _margin_ and _indentation_ are two quite different concepts.
What does a tilde in the original mean?
see if you can figure it out!
Ah, that's quite a helpful answer!... I thought that they might be there to represent non-breaking spaces, but then "button~hole" doesn't make any sense to me, so I guess I can't figure out what they're there for after all. That's a pity.
And whatever they mean, why are they kept in the converted version?
because i forgot they were in there, so i forgot that i had to remove them. they're harmless. pretend they're gone.
... and that is as well, I am sure.
I'd also really like to have the dedication centered on the page, as it would be in a real book.
i assume you mean centered top-to-bottom?
No, I mean centered left-to-right.
we're building a converter-program. remember?
Yeah, so how about you offer us a way to download the converted HTML next, if you'd rather do that first instead of making the HTML actually look decent? I have quite a few more suggestions for making your HTML look better, but as you don't seem to be interested in them, go ahead and actually write your conversions instead. That would be quite useful as well, I am sure. Jana
On Thu, February 24, 2011 3:33 am, Jana Srna wrote:
On Feb 23, 2011, at 11:44, bowerbird@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
What does a tilde in the original mean?
see if you can figure it out!
Ah, that's quite a helpful answer!...
This is a perfect example what I mean when I say that z.m.l. has rules but you have to figure out what they are on your own, and that they are constantly changing. If you look at the various descriptions that BowerBird has published over the years, you might note that he never actually defines the markup and how it is appropriately used; instead he only provides examples of how it might be used in specific situations. I'm all for examples, but they should be used to illustrate a technical specification, not as a replacement therefor. I suspect that BowerBird is the only one who is truly capable of using z.m.l., as he is the only one who understands all the rules (and when he finds a construct his rules don't cover he can simply make up a new rule to account for it).
I thought that they might be there to represent non-breaking spaces, but then "button~hole" doesn't make any sense to me, so I guess I can't figure out what they're there for after all. That's a pity.
In pre-computer text hyphens served two purposes: to combine parts of a compound word, or to divide a word (generally on syllable boundaries) when it occurred at the end of a line. Hyphens used for these purposes are now typically referred to as "hard" hyphens (compound words) and "soft" hyphens (divided words). In reflowable markups like HTML, soft hyphens can be ignored and not displayed when they do not fall in the User Agent's hyphenation zone. However, because the screen "canvas" size is so highly variable soft hyphens serve little purpose, because the chance that they will fall in the hyphenation zone is minuscule and it is impractical to pre-hyphenate every word in a text. Nowadays, it is much more practical in HTML to simply remove all soft hyphens and rely on automated hyphenation algorithms to hyphenate on-the-fly. This general rule changes slightly, however, when your markup attempts to preserve original line breaks as they appear in a specific printed version of a book. In this case, when a hyphen appears at the end of a line one has to determine whether it is a soft hyphen, breaking a normal word on a line boundary, or whether it is a hard hyphen which may not be removed when wrapping lines of text. A couple of years ago (at least!), when I was experimenting with preserving line breaks I decided to use the tilde as the visible representation of a soft hyphen, which could be removed when text was rendered. Thus "~<br/>" would indicate a soft hyphen which could be removed when appropriate, whereas "-" in any context would indicate a hard hyphen which would have to be displayed in all cases. (A simplified example, the actual markup was a bit more complex). At a guess, it appears that BowerBird is using the tilde as a replacement hyphen, but has reversed the meaning I used. Because "button-hole" is a compound word, the hyphen in it is a hard hyphen which must always be preserved. I assume that in the example you cited "button~hole" was split on a line break, which would mean that "tilde followed by line break" indicates a hard hyphen. The corollaries to this assumption are that "hyphen followed by a line break" indicates a soft hyphen but "hyphen followed by anything but a line break" is still a hard hyphen. If "button~hole" does not fall on a line break, I would still have to guess that a tilde is a hard hyphen, but it would make the text quite odd to have tildes scattered throughout a text wherever there would ordinarily be a hard hyphen. On the other hand, if BowerBird can't provide a straight~forward response to a straight~forward question, maybe this is one of those rules that is still in flux and he hasn't quite figured out what the rule ought to be. You might try telling him what you think the rule ought to be and that might crystallize his thinking. He'll either respond with "Bravo, that's exactly what I have in mind and you're a genius for agreeing with me!" or he'll respond with "Sorry, you guessed wrong and you're an idiot because you don't agree with me." Either response is possible, but in no case will he admit that he hadn't already figured out the rule. Kind of like a spouse.
There was a time when ~word~ meant italics, _word_ mean underscore, and /word/ meant bold, and that was about it IRRC. mh On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Lee Passey wrote:
On Thu, February 24, 2011 3:33 am, Jana Srna wrote:
On Feb 23, 2011, at 11:44, bowerbird@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
What does a tilde in the original mean?
see if you can figure it out!
Ah, that's quite a helpful answer!...
This is a perfect example what I mean when I say that z.m.l. has rules but you have to figure out what they are on your own, and that they are constantly changing. If you look at the various descriptions that BowerBird has published over the years, you might note that he never actually defines the markup and how it is appropriately used; instead he only provides examples of how it might be used in specific situations.
I'm all for examples, but they should be used to illustrate a technical specification, not as a replacement therefor. I suspect that BowerBird is the only one who is truly capable of using z.m.l., as he is the only one who understands all the rules (and when he finds a construct his rules don't cover he can simply make up a new rule to account for it).
I thought that they might be there to represent non-breaking spaces, but then "button~hole" doesn't make any sense to me, so I guess I can't figure out what they're there for after all. That's a pity.
In pre-computer text hyphens served two purposes: to combine parts of a compound word, or to divide a word (generally on syllable boundaries) when it occurred at the end of a line. Hyphens used for these purposes are now typically referred to as "hard" hyphens (compound words) and "soft" hyphens (divided words).
In reflowable markups like HTML, soft hyphens can be ignored and not displayed when they do not fall in the User Agent's hyphenation zone. However, because the screen "canvas" size is so highly variable soft hyphens serve little purpose, because the chance that they will fall in the hyphenation zone is minuscule and it is impractical to pre-hyphenate every word in a text. Nowadays, it is much more practical in HTML to simply remove all soft hyphens and rely on automated hyphenation algorithms to hyphenate on-the-fly.
This general rule changes slightly, however, when your markup attempts to preserve original line breaks as they appear in a specific printed version of a book. In this case, when a hyphen appears at the end of a line one has to determine whether it is a soft hyphen, breaking a normal word on a line boundary, or whether it is a hard hyphen which may not be removed when wrapping lines of text.
A couple of years ago (at least!), when I was experimenting with preserving line breaks I decided to use the tilde as the visible representation of a soft hyphen, which could be removed when text was rendered. Thus "~<br/>" would indicate a soft hyphen which could be removed when appropriate, whereas "-" in any context would indicate a hard hyphen which would have to be displayed in all cases. (A simplified example, the actual markup was a bit more complex).
At a guess, it appears that BowerBird is using the tilde as a replacement hyphen, but has reversed the meaning I used. Because "button-hole" is a compound word, the hyphen in it is a hard hyphen which must always be preserved. I assume that in the example you cited "button~hole" was split on a line break, which would mean that "tilde followed by line break" indicates a hard hyphen. The corollaries to this assumption are that "hyphen followed by a line break" indicates a soft hyphen but "hyphen followed by anything but a line break" is still a hard hyphen.
If "button~hole" does not fall on a line break, I would still have to guess that a tilde is a hard hyphen, but it would make the text quite odd to have tildes scattered throughout a text wherever there would ordinarily be a hard hyphen.
On the other hand, if BowerBird can't provide a straight~forward response to a straight~forward question, maybe this is one of those rules that is still in flux and he hasn't quite figured out what the rule ought to be. You might try telling him what you think the rule ought to be and that might crystallize his thinking. He'll either respond with "Bravo, that's exactly what I have in mind and you're a genius for agreeing with me!" or he'll respond with "Sorry, you guessed wrong and you're an idiot because you don't agree with me." Either response is possible, but in no case will he admit that he hadn't already figured out the rule.
Kind of like a spouse.
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participants (4)
-
Bowerbird＠aol.com -
Jana Srna -
Lee Passey -
Michael S. Hart