david said:
it's just going to be a smaller version of a keyboardless Macbook Air with ebooks available through iTunes.
man, wouldn't that be something, even all by itself! the very first thing i wanted to do when i lifted up a macbook air was to rip off that stupid keyboard. (but i didn't think the employees there in the apple store would fully appreciate my marvelous gesture.)
Nothing really revolutionary to see here, unless it out-does what the Nook, Que, Alex or similar devices are doing. Judging from what we've seen from Apple lately, I wouldn't put much faith in it changing the industry
hey dude, i don't know where you're from, but here on planet earth the ipod revolutionized how the masses listened to (and bought) music, and the iphone revolutionized so-called "smart" phones (which had been quite retarded before) and put the web (the _real_ web) in our pockets, which was the biggest revolution of all of these. and now they've set the table to do it all _again_, not just changing "the industry", but _the_world_. but again, this is here on planet earth, so please, mr. alien man, tell us what it's like on your planet. -bowerbird
Just one little correction/emendation: Apple's iPhone wasn't first to "put the web in our pocket." As I recall it is not that old. I have phones with browsers and wifi that are TWICE as old! On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, bowerbird@aol.com wrote:
david said:
it's just going to be a smaller version of a keyboardless Macbook Air with ebooks available through iTunes.
man, wouldn't that be something, even all by itself!
the very first thing i wanted to do when i lifted up a macbook air was to rip off that stupid keyboard. (but i didn't think the employees there in the apple store would fully appreciate my marvelous gesture.)
Nothing really revolutionary to see here, unless it out-does what the Nook, Que, Alex or similar devices are doing. Judging from what we've seen from Apple lately, I wouldn't put much faith in it changing the industry
hey dude, i don't know where you're from, but here on planet earth the ipod revolutionized how the masses listened to (and bought) music, and the iphone revolutionized so-called "smart" phones (which had been quite retarded before) and put the web (the _real_ web) in our pockets, which was the biggest revolution of all of these.
and now they've set the table to do it all _again_, not just changing "the industry", but _the_world_.
but again, this is here on planet earth, so please, mr. alien man, tell us what it's like on your planet.
-bowerbird
On 1/22/10 3:27 AM, Michael S. Hart wrote:
Just one little correction/emendation:
Apple's iPhone wasn't first to "put the web in our pocket."
As I recall it is not that old.
I have phones with browsers and wifi that are TWICE as old!
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The bird is right when he says that the iPhone put the the web in our pockets in the sense that it, just like the iPod before it, had almost next to nothing that was new in terms of technical capabalities, but through extremely clever packaging made those techincal capabilities interesting to the masses. Just like Microsoft put a computer on every desktop, but didn't invent hardly a thing in that era. Regards, Walter
On my planet "Microsoft did" NOT "put a computer on every desktop." Or on any desktop, for that matter. Even though I switched from CP/M to DOS at a moment's notice. Just the same, "the iPhone" DID NOT "put the web in our pockets." Unless, of course, what you mean is on YOUR PLANET they made it a fad. While Apple gets too much credit for iPhones, which are, after all, only a VERY small percentage of all cellphones sold in their times, Apple also gets too little credit for bringing us the PC, period. So, perhaps on your planet this makes it all balance relatively. I prefer a balance just slightly closer to the facts. If you've been on this list long, you've seen my references to the Nokia Communicator 9000, as shown in the movie "The Saint" [1997], and therefore in existence when it was shot and set in 1996. . . . Such phones were commonplace in Europe a decade ago, I saw them. The US has always been way behind in cellphones, and still is, iPhones notwithstanding, cuteness notwithstanding. However, I will give you that fads have their place in progress, bringing things even more to the masses. After all, THIS IS THE YEAR OF THE eBOOK!!! ;-) Michael On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Walter van Holst wrote:
On 1/22/10 3:27 AM, Michael S. Hart wrote:
Just one little correction/emendation:
Apple's iPhone wasn't first to "put the web in our pocket."
As I recall it is not that old.
I have phones with browsers and wifi that are TWICE as old!
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The bird is right when he says that the iPhone put the the web in our pockets in the sense that it, just like the iPod before it, had almost next to nothing that was new in terms of technical capabalities, but through extremely clever packaging made those techincal capabilities interesting to the masses.
Just like Microsoft put a computer on every desktop, but didn't invent hardly a thing in that era.
Regards,
Walter _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Sorry for stepping in so late! Am 22.01.2010 um 11:54 schrieb Michael S. Hart:
On my planet "Microsoft did" NOT "put a computer on every desktop."
Not even on earth! Apple, IBM, Commodore, and Atari started. MS had a sort of monopoly far as OSes went so it is now the most widely distributed one.
Or on any desktop, for that matter.
Even though I switched from CP/M to DOS at a moment's notice.
Just the same, "the iPhone" DID NOT "put the web in our pockets." Nope sure did not. Had a phone tat could use the internet for years before the iPhone came out but could/would not afford the connection prices. The iPhone was the first requiring internet and sold exclusively with a data rate.
Unless, of course, what you mean is on YOUR PLANET they made it a fad.
While Apple gets too much credit for iPhones, which are, after all, only a VERY small percentage of all cellphones sold in their times, Apple also gets too little credit for bringing us the PC, period. True, but with one of the highest ratings for internet usage as compared to other makers!!
The iPhone GUI is what is making the difference and ease of use.
So, perhaps on your planet this makes it all balance relatively.
I prefer a balance just slightly closer to the facts.
If you've been on this list long, you've seen my references to the Nokia Communicator 9000, as shown in the movie "The Saint" [1997], and therefore in existence when it was shot and set in 1996. . . .
Such phones were commonplace in Europe a decade ago, I saw them.
Like I said had one.
The US has always been way behind in cellphones, and still is, iPhones notwithstanding, cuteness notwithstanding.
I would not say that. But, the hype around the iPhone got the common people to spend big bucks for such phones. regards Keith
On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Sorry for stepping in so late!
You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which product actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the PC (even with a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with internet capabilities around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have been in the telecoms industry). The point is which product enabled or caused the masses to use desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which product was 'first'. Regards, Walter
Hi Walter, If you would have read carefully, you would have understood that I agreed with you. MS aka Winows was in the more or less forced upon the Wintel machines. Not to say that better OSes were not out there, but you had to pay extra for them and things were highly incompatible in the beginning. But that is another story and does not belong here. Like I mentioned the iPhone made things easier and in a sense affordable. As far as the PC goes it was either Apple or IBM! Can not remember which can out first. But IBM was responsible for coining PC. But to get On Topic : Would you say is responsible for e-books? My vote goes to PG, because with out it the books available for all those fancy readers would be minimal. regards Keith Am 24.01.2010 um 22:09 schrieb Walter van Holst:
On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Sorry for stepping in so late!
You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which product actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the PC (even with a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with internet capabilities around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have been in the telecoms industry). The point is which product enabled or caused the masses to use desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which product was 'first'.
Regards,
Walter _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
You seem to be missing the point as well. iPhones don't account for but a few percent of all cellphones, or even all web cellphones, or even all web/wifi/cellphones. As I said, I have one much older, and I never turned it on as a phone, I just used the wifi. . . . On Sun, 24 Jan 2010, Walter van Holst wrote:
On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Sorry for stepping in so late!
You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which product actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the PC (even with a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with internet capabilities around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have been in the telecoms industry). The point is which product enabled or caused the masses to use desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which product was 'first'.
Regards,
Walter _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Walter van Holst wrote:
On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Sorry for stepping in so late!
You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which product actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the PC (even with a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with internet capabilities around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have been in the telecoms industry). The point is which product enabled or caused the masses to use desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which product was 'first'.
Where I do business I never see an iPhone laying around. I see Blackberries and Nokias and Sonys. I see iPhones only in discos and cafés, where they read GQ Magazine and Playboy. The point is that our media need heroes, and when a whole company comes around with the bruce willis attitude, they jump to it. Its easier to copy a sensational press release than to research dozens of models and technologies and plans. The iPhone is late, technically inferior, overpriced and locked into its vendor. The only thing Apple does well is marketing, but thats also the only feature that works against me, making me pay more. You have been conned into thinking the iPhone is something special. That's all. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones. regards Keith
The iPhone is late, technically inferior, overpriced and locked into its vendor. The only thing Apple does well is marketing, but thats also the only feature that works against me, making me pay more.
You have been conned into thinking the iPhone is something special. That's all.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
The apple store in Hamburg! Am 25.01.2010 um 18:43 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones.
Where?
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
What is the cost??? Many thanks!!! Michael On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
The apple store in Hamburg!
Am 25.01.2010 um 18:43 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones.
Where?
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Hi Micheal, can not say. I was thinking of getting of an iphone and my carrier was willing to hook me up with a vendor, but the iPhones 3G performance is to slow. Sooo, now I have a N97. regards Keith. Am 26.01.2010 um 12:07 schrieb Michael S. Hart:
What is the cost???
Many thanks!!!
Michael
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
The apple store in Hamburg!
Am 25.01.2010 um 18:43 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones.
On 1/26/10 12:07 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote:
What is the cost???
Belgian stores carry the 16 GB 3GS model for about 575 Euro. (http://www.phonehouse.be) Here in the Netherlands you'll pay about a 100 Euro more than that for parallel-imported sim-lock free ones. I These are all prices for phones without any plan whatsoever. f you are willing to chain yourself to a multiple year plan of about 20-30 Euro per month, you'll pay nothing. BTW, mobile operators are obliged to unlock your SIM upon request after our contract has expired, or in the case of prepaid phones, after twelve months. Now to the market share: iPhone marketshare is about 20-30%: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wider-distribution-lifting-iphone-sales-in-... Mobile Safari's share in worldwide web traffic among mobile browsers is about 30% (which is the leading position): http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/opera-bests-iphones-mobile-browser... Some reports put the share in web use for the iPhone even at the 40% of the total mobile web use. That is what I call actually putting the web in the pockets of the masses. On to cell-phone heaven that you think Europe is (I'm there, so I can judge it). Nokia has thoroughly dropped the ball when it comes to smartphones. They still make fine normal phones, their smartphones are deeply annoying to use for anything else than just making phone calls. It has to be said though, the iPhone is a very poor phone. It is a great mobile internet device. Regards, Walter
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
The apple store in Hamburg!
No dice. Go to: http://iphone-reserve.apple.com/WebObjects/RPRCustomer.woa/wa/buyiPhone?lang=de&country=DE select "Apple Store, Alstertal" and you can buy with prepaid or postpaid plan. You cannot buy without plan. That is confirmed by wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Verkauf_mit_Vertragsbindung There was a short window from Nov. 21 to Dec. 4 2007 in which Apple was legally forced to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany. They `complied´ by offering unlocked iPhones for EUR 1,000 (locked ones were EUR 400). Some will rob you with a six-gun, And some with a fountain pen. (Woody Guthrie) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Hi Marcello, I said non SIM-Locked. Apple will directly sell you one if a vendor will refers you to them. There are other vendors are offering them, too. How they get them I can not say. I believe the import them from other countries. 2007 was a long time ago. You can get the iPhone for $70 - $2 via German Telecom depending on your plan and yes those are SIM-Lock. But, they can be unlocked for a fee! In France the iPhones can be unlocked after 2 month and if I remember correctly for free. I won't and will never buy a telephone that is SIM-Lock. That is just a way the carrier tries to bind you. My last couple of phones have gone to my nieces. They are the envy of their class. As all where smart phones. regards Keith. Am 26.01.2010 um 19:42 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
The apple store in Hamburg!
No dice. Go to:
http://iphone-reserve.apple.com/WebObjects/RPRCustomer.woa/wa/buyiPhone?lang=de&country=DE
select "Apple Store, Alstertal" and you can buy with prepaid or postpaid plan. You cannot buy without plan.
That is confirmed by wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Verkauf_mit_Vertragsbindung
There was a short window from Nov. 21 to Dec. 4 2007 in which Apple was legally forced to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany. They `complied´ by offering unlocked iPhones for EUR 1,000 (locked ones were EUR 400).
Some will rob you with a six-gun, And some with a fountain pen. (Woody Guthrie)
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello,
I said non SIM-Locked. Apple will directly sell you one if a vendor will refers you to them. There are other vendors are offering them, too. How they get them I can not say. I believe the import them from other countries.
If I can get an unlocked phone only if I subscribe to a 24-month plan, then where's the difference? What would I do with the plan I just subscribed to? Stick the card in my stamp collection and pay EUR 50 a month for that? I don't want a gray import or a phone bought hundreds of miles away in a foreign country. I want a phone with 2 years legal warranty that, if it breaks down, I can bring to a shop in the town I live and have it replaced on the spot or get my money back like I'm entitled according to European law. And, because I get around a lot, I want a phone I can use with any provider in Europe, prepaid or postpaid or without any card at all. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Hi Marcello, Am 27.01.2010 um 19:01 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello, I said non SIM-Locked. Apple will directly sell you one if a vendor will refers you to them. There are other vendors are offering them, too. How they get them I can not say. I believe the import them from other countries.
If I can get an unlocked phone only if I subscribe to a 24-month plan, then where's the difference? What would I do with the plan I just subscribed to? Stick the card in my stamp collection and pay EUR 50 a month for that? At least you have a iPhone. But, What are you going to do with an iPhone without a telephone service? If you do not need a telephone get an iTouch or now and iPad!
Then again, the carriers here are more than willing to give rebates on your plans if you tell them you want the iPhone, you only need to pay for the iPhone from a dealer. There are also agents that will do the same. AND you do get a non SIM-lock iPhone. It is not that Apple sells only SIM-Lock iPhones!
I don't want a gray import or a phone bought hundreds of miles away in a foreign country. I want a phone with 2 years legal warranty that, if it breaks down, I can bring to a shop in the town I live and have it replaced on the spot or get my money back like I'm entitled according to European law.
From what I heard these are legal! There is no german law forbidding the sale of these iPhones. Only service providers can not sell them directly. I am not hundreds of miles away in a foreign country. For you, Yes. But that is your problem.
And, because I get around a lot, I want a phone I can use with any provider in Europe, prepaid or postpaid or without any card at all. The only way to use a Phone with a card is if you use Wi-Fi. Like I said these iPhones are NOT SIM-LOCK so no problem using them as a telephone. I have only seen postpaid cards or plans for dataplans.
Here is a question: Would AT&T unlock a iPhone if you toöd them you are going to Europe and want to take it along? Problem solved if you are willing to go with AT&T. I am pretty sure the markets will be opening up. soon. Then I am sure the iPhones will really, take off. regards Keith.
david said:
it's just going to be a smaller version of a keyboardless Macbook Air with ebooks available through iTunes.
The main issues I can see here are: 1) People are split whether or not they can tolerate reading on LCD display or whether they require e-Ink type of technology. 2) People are split on whether or not they like touch-screen vs. dislike the reduction in display quality that touch-screens entail. 3) How big vs. how little you want your reading device to be. 4) What file formats and/or DRM and/or other transfer and download restrictions a particular e-book reader entails. 5) real keyboards vs. virtual keyboards. 6) how "general purpose computer " vs. "dedicated reader" a device is. 7) cost. For reference Kindle "owns" about 2/3rds of the dedicated e-book reader market right now. Apple might be able to shake this up. IMHO competition is good in that hopefully it forces vendors to acknowledge and remove the most egregious DRM or other restrictions -- hopefully similar to what we have seen in the music market. We need devices and vendors that better recognize existing traditions of book "fair use" by readers while allowing contemporary authors a fair copyright return on their artistic efforts.
participants (6)
-
bowerbird＠aol.com -
Jim Adcock -
Keith J. Schultz -
Marcello Perathoner -
Michael S. Hart -
Walter van Holst