You're missing the point I'm trying to make, Michael. Keep the history. No problem. Just don't make it the DEFAULT that pops up when someone does a search. Joe User couldn't care less about our history. He just wants to read the book. So, give him the book that he CAN read. Put the "historical mistake" in the OLD subdirectory, where it is still available for those of us that care about such things. Josh PS I think the pop culture Simpsons reference flew right by you. ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hart" <hart@pglaf.org> To: "The gutvol-d Mailing List" <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] [Fwd: Folio files] Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:56:56 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Joshua Hutchinson wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hart" <hart@pglaf.org>
So any chance we can convert this file to a text file, make that the main entry and move the .nfo file to the OLD subdirectory?
Josh
Please stop trying to rewrite history. . . .
This should be kept as a straighforward example of what can and DOES happen with proprietary formats.
Sorry. Gotta call bullshit on this one. Keeping the file in the OLD subdirectory maintains the history for those that wish to find it, while allowing better usability for those folks that simply want to read this particular work.
Barnyard epithets aside, this is too important to sweep under the carpet.
There is plenty of usability in other formats, so leave it be. . . .
How frustrating do you think people would be if they went to their local library, found a book in the catalog that they wanted, but the only place they are allowed to access the book is in a backroom that is pitch black. Yeah, they have the book, but it is completely useless to the reader.
That's the whole point. . .so don't hide it. . .MAKE the point, publicly.
So, yeah, we have the book in PG... but it is completely useless to you.
No. . .it's available in other formats. . .if you take a look.
/nelson-voice-from-The-Simpsons
HA HA
/end-nelson-voice-from-The-Simpsons
Josh
Yes, you are correct, you are making a silly argument.
The President of Folio came to visit us here, and promised the free Folio reader. . . .
Of course this is ancient history to you, but some of us remember, and do not want such an effort wiped out of our history.
It was a LOT of work. . . .
Leave it be. . . .
Michael _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Joshua Hutchinson wrote:
You're missing the point I'm trying to make, Michael.
Keep the history. No problem. Just don't make it the DEFAULT that pops up when someone does a search. Joe User couldn't care less about our history. He just wants to read the book. So, give him the book that he CAN read.
I don't see any messages that say the .nfo file is the default, out of the dozen or so that I have here. _I_ certainly haven't said it should be the default, just that it should not be moved away from the main directories.
Put the "historical mistake" in the OLD subdirectory, where it is still available for those of us that care about such things.
It is our job to make sure people are aware of this. They can't care if they are not aware of it.
Josh
Michael
PS I think the pop culture Simpsons reference flew right by you. ;)
Doh!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hart" <hart@pglaf.org> To: "The gutvol-d Mailing List" <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] [Fwd: Folio files] Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:56:56 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Joshua Hutchinson wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hart" <hart@pglaf.org>
So any chance we can convert this file to a text file, make that the main entry and move the .nfo file to the OLD subdirectory?
Josh
Please stop trying to rewrite history. . . .
This should be kept as a straighforward example of what can and DOES happen with proprietary formats.
Sorry. Gotta call bullshit on this one. Keeping the file in the OLD subdirectory maintains the history for those that wish to find it, while allowing better usability for those folks that simply want to read this particular work.
Barnyard epithets aside, this is too important to sweep under the carpet.
There is plenty of usability in other formats, so leave it be. . . .
How frustrating do you think people would be if they went to their local library, found a book in the catalog that they wanted, but the only place they are allowed to access the book is in a backroom that is pitch black. Yeah, they have the book, but it is completely useless to the reader.
That's the whole point. . .so don't hide it. . .MAKE the point, publicly.
So, yeah, we have the book in PG... but it is completely useless to you.
No. . .it's available in other formats. . .if you take a look.
/nelson-voice-from-The-Simpsons
HA HA
/end-nelson-voice-from-The-Simpsons
Josh
Yes, you are correct, you are making a silly argument.
The President of Folio came to visit us here, and promised the free Folio reader. . . .
Of course this is ancient history to you, but some of us remember, and do not want such an effort wiped out of our history.
It was a LOT of work. . . .
Leave it be. . . .
Michael _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
Joshua wrote:
You're missing the point I'm trying to make, Michael.
Keep the history. No problem. Just don't make it the DEFAULT that pops up when someone does a search. Joe User couldn't care less about our history. He just wants to read the book. So, give him the book that he CAN read.
Good point. I agree with this.
Put the "historical mistake" in the OLD subdirectory, where it is still available for those of us that care about such things.
Now, to show support for Michael's reasoning, PG definitely needs to make a strong point about the importance of using easy to repurpose open standards for formatting etexts. But mixing obsolete proprietary formats with usable formats actually works against making this point, as Joshua notes. It also aggravates users who may want to read the work, but can't (and thus they will develop a negative view towards PG.) I say move them to a special directory so they are *easier* to find, and then create a web site describing why proprietary formats are bad (especially those which are very difficult to repurpose even when the format is published.) Provide links at this web site to those works in the collection using proprietary formats. I guess one could call it a "PG Hall of Shame" collection. <smile/> Just a suggestion. Jon
Jon Noring wrote:
Now, to show support for Michael's reasoning, PG definitely needs to make a strong point about the importance of using easy to repurpose open standards for formatting etexts. But mixing obsolete proprietary formats with usable formats actually works against making this point, as Joshua notes. It also aggravates users who may want to read the work, but can't (and thus they will develop a negative view towards PG.)
I say move them to a special directory so they are *easier* to find, and then create a web site describing why proprietary formats are bad (especially those which are very difficult to repurpose even when the format is published.) Provide links at this web site to those works in the collection using proprietary formats. I guess one could call it a "PG Hall of Shame" collection. <smile/>
I do support this suggestion. The reasoning behind my support is: Were I a random reader searching Project Gutenberg for a copy of Edward Gibbon's "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" I would be met by a series of files available for download. I find several textual files for each volume of the history, and one Folio formatted document (which does, for the record, appear first, perhaps because 'Folio' is alphabetically prior to 'Volume'). I choose the first item on the list, and perhaps, if it has been somehow moved from the top of the list, I select that which does not specify a volume number, intending to locate the full set of volumes. I then see the following comment which appears in the notes for this Folio-formatted document: DO NOT DOWNLOAD !!! see #892 for HTML format, #733 for plain text. The Folio format is obsolete. You won't be able to display the file. Thank goodness that this comment is here, but I suggest that this does not have the affect that we intend, and that Michael very strongly supports. As a random reader, I do not look at this and say "What a tragic result of proprietary e-book formats!" Rather, the only thought that I can imagine is one of confusion. "What a foolish thing for Project Gutenberg to have!" not, "What a foolish thing for anybody to do!" I do support Jon's suggestion of creating a Project Gutenberg "Hall of Shame" of sorts, which provides the argument against proprietary e-book formats. I suggest that the Folio-formatted e-books could be moved into this portion of the site. Of course, as Michael has pointed out, the intention is not to hide the documents away. With that intention in mind, it would not be unreasonable to leave the original entry within the database, but replace the above note "DO NOT DOWNLOAD, etc" with a more detailed reference to the aforementioned "Hall of Shame." This provides Joe Reader with more of a justification for the document's presence, and possibly sends him away with a different perspective on proprietary e-book formats, which, after all, is the intention. - Scott Schmucker
...
Were I a random reader searching Project Gutenberg for a copy of Edward Gibbon's "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" I would be met by a series of files available for download. I find several textual files for each volume of the history, and one Folio formatted document (which does, for the record, appear first, perhaps because 'Folio' is alphabetically prior to 'Volume'). I choose the first item on the list, and perhaps, if it has been somehow moved from the top of ... - Scott Schmucker
If this is the case, perhaps it would be easier to add XTINCT prior to Folio in the title, thus commenting on proprietary formats and changing the sort order although dropping the E from extinct might look funny....
Scott Schmucker wrote:
I then see the following comment which appears in the notes for this Folio-formatted document:
DO NOT DOWNLOAD !!! see #892 for HTML format, #733 for plain text. The Folio format is obsolete. You won't be able to display the file.
Etexts #892 and #733 are each "Decline & Fall" Volume 3. Why point to volume 3? -Michael
participants (6)
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bill jenness -
Jon Noring -
Joshua Hutchinson -
Michael Dyck -
Michael Hart -
Scott Schmucker