Well, it has kindled a lot of discussion, hm?
First, thanks to all who responded in one way or another. You know who you are (some of the time, I hope!) It seems that Kindle does do most of what I want in ways that I could find usable. My money and I are a bit busy at the moment, so I shall not order one this moment, but my interest is growing, Amazon and rivals are hyperventilating increasingly as I dither over my choice. How long? How long??? You know, I am a bit puzzled about one thing (among many others of course). For most part epaper seems to be the least power hungry choice (not that I am a tree hugger; I am of course, anyway, but in this connection less power means longer battery life etc.) but there is another option that, though it is not power-independent, should get by on very little. I know it exists, but much as epaper did for a couple of decades, it seems to be languishing, or at least limited to special purposes. What I am thinking of is some kinds of heads-up displays that can be worn like glasses, seeing the "screen" through some sort of lens system. I should think them to be perfect for reading etc, and afaik they are mainly LCD based, and accordingly power-conservative. They should be usable hands-off whether walking, driving, lying down, or in the dark. Potentially a 640X 480 or even 800X600 should be cheap. With a modest memory and processor modules they should be nearly everything the Kindles are, or more so. Or am I too optimistic? What am I missing? BB, how about detumescing my optimism? Walter and Michael made good points about screen sizes and changing standards, but the reason for my interest is that it is all very well to be satisfied with tiny screens, but it does bad things to one's capacity for effortless, comfortable, non-injurious, reading for hours and hours. Alex made a good pitch, but I think that between simple cell-phone costs and few-inch screens, as Jim pointed out, Kindle currently sounds like the best bet, though his HTC sounds nice for those who need it. BB made some good points as usual, but some rather unconvincing ones also as usual. Eg: " but don't focus on _books_ per se, because the number of book-readers in the population is very small. (and it's getting even smaller every day.) book-readers won't drive this revolution.". See, BB, I do indeed focus on book reading, not because I am selling, but because I read. And reading I may buy. Only if I change my market do I change my focus. I don't much care about the other things the gadgets can do because I don't do them much. That is why my cell phone is only marginally younger than my microscope. It does what I want of a phone, which is damned little. If it offered reading for me as well without a fancy lens attachment, it would be fatiguing, which is where the charm of epaper or the heads-up display would lie. Does anyone know why such heads ups are not common yet? Note that they need not be dedicated machines, any more than PCs are. You say: " i always said this idea was ridiculous, because a reader has to have a screen and a chip and an operating system, and those are the most expensive parts of any computer, so if you're going to pay for those for a dedicated reader, you might as well get a full-fledged computer instead..." But you see BB, we do not all have your thews and sinews and built-in power sockets. We cannot sit and read in the train or in bed or on a hilltop and read a comfortably sized screen or image weighing a couple of kilos for hours on end. So far epaper has it all its own way. I take your point about its price ans a specialised device, but why should it be specialised? It looks to me like a perfectly usable screen for many purposes. Maybe more than LCD...? Who knows, I might yet still make up my mind before i can afford a kindle... Cheers all, Jon
On Wed, 13 May 2009, Jon Richfield wrote: [snip]
Walter and Michael made good points about screen sizes and changing standards, but the reason for my interest is that it is all very well to be satisfied with tiny screens, but it does bad things to one's capacity for effortless, comfortable, non-injurious, reading for hours and hours.
I would check with The Mayo Clinic before commenting on injurious versus non-injurious, they say there is no injury from eye strain.
If it offered reading for me as well without a fancy lens attachment, it would be fatiguing, which is where the charm of epaper or the heads-up display would lie.
As for fatiging, this also seems to be a generational thing, with the younger generations seemingly willing to spend days looking at tiny GameBoy type screens without ill effects. If you do a Google search on "reading computer eyestrain" one of the first hits you will get is from The Mayo Clinic: Definition By Mayo Clinic staff Eyestrain occurs when your eyes get tired from intense use, such as driving a car for extended periods, reading or working at the computer. Although eyestrain can be annoying, it usually isn't serious and goes away once you rest your eyes. In some cases, signs and symptoms of eyestrain are a sign of an underlying eye condition that needs treatment. Although you may not be able to change the nature of your job or all the factors that can cause eyestrain, you can take steps to reduce eyestrain.
Jon Richfield wrote
You know, I am a bit puzzled about one thing (among many others of course). For most part epaper seems to be the least power hungry choice (not that I am a tree hugger; I am of course, anyway, but in this connection less power means longer battery life etc.) but there is another option that, though it is not power-independent, should get by on very little. I know it exists, but much as epaper did for a couple of decades, it seems to be languishing, or at least limited to special purposes. What I am thinking of is some kinds of heads-up displays that can be worn like glasses, seeing the "screen" through some sort of lens system. I should think them to be perfect for reading etc, and afaik they are mainly LCD based, and accordingly power-conservative. They should be usable hands-off whether walking, driving, lying down, or in the dark. Potentially a 640X 480 or even 800X600 should be cheap. With a modest memory and processor modules they should be nearly everything the Kindles are, or more so.
Exactly, that makes one think further. They would be ideal for unobtrusive data representation in mission-critical situations... ahhh don't we know that language from somewhere? might THAT be the reason we don't see such devices: because they are *dual use? ralf
me wrote
Jon Richfield wrote
You know, I am a bit puzzled about one thing (among many others of course). For most part epaper seems to be the least power hungry choice (not that I am a tree hugger; I am of course, anyway, but in this connection less power means longer battery life etc.) but there is another option that, though it is not power-independent, should get by on very little. I know it exists, but much as epaper did for a couple of decades, it seems to be languishing, or at least limited to special purposes. What I am thinking of is some kinds of heads-up displays that can be worn like glasses, seeing the "screen" through some sort of lens system. I should think them to be perfect for reading etc, and afaik they are mainly LCD based, and accordingly power-conservative. They should be usable hands-off whether walking, driving, lying down, or in the dark. Potentially a 640X 480 or even 800X600 should be cheap. With a modest memory and processor modules they should be nearly everything the Kindles are, or more so.
Exactly, that makes one think further. They would be ideal for unobtrusive data representation in mission-critical situations... ahhh don't we know that language from somewhere? might THAT be the reason we don't see such devices: because they are *dual use?
on second thought, however, I rather believe we WILL see them, but only when we all have bought the clumsier things they have in that pipeline for years to come. and then we will wait a decade for integration of thought-controllability. image that: not even move your arm to turn a page: reader's coma. ralf
About the Samsung i730 (Verizon, 3G, CDMA). . . . How do you rename that file to make it wifi??? Thanks!!! Michael
Jon Richfield wrote: [snip]
Walter and Michael made good points about screen sizes and changing standards, but the reason for my interest is that it is all very well to be satisfied with tiny screens, but it does bad things to one's capacity for effortless, comfortable, non-injurious, reading for hours and hours. Alex made a good pitch, but I think that between simple cell-phone costs and few-inch screens, as Jim pointed out, Kindle currently sounds like the best bet, though his HTC sounds nice for those who need it.
It seems to me that the flaw in your argument is (as we say in the business) "it assumes facts not in evidence," to wit, in assumes that reading on PDA-size screens "does bad things to one's capacity for effortless, comfortable, non-injurious, reading for hours and hours." In my own case, it has done nothing bad to my capacity for "effortless, comfortable, non-injurious, reading for hours and hours." And while I have had no direct experience with the Kindle, I can tell you that I prefer reading on my LCD PDA than on my son's e-paper Sony Reader. And the other testimony which has been presented here seems to confirm my experience. It seems a logical conclusion that reading on a Kindle would be preferable to reading on a PDA (including cell-phone-enabled PDAs), but the logical conclusion does not seem to be born out by the evidence. So far, all the testimony presented is that PDA-sized screens are not an impediment to "effortless, comfortable, non-injurious, reading for hours and hours." Of course, YMMV, but it seems to me that the Kindle's attempt to mimic the paper experience is more important in its marketing than in its use, and the Kindle fails to take advantage of many of the other benefits of reading on an electronic device.
A couple of the big disadvantages of the Kindle (of which I own and use two) * The display contrast is not high unless well-lit. The experience is similar to reading a European Newspaper. * The Amazon DRM policies are far from ideal -- even if one is willing to tolerate DRM. Again, the Kindle works well for none-DRM providers like PG, but if you have to buy a DRM e-book, the latest NYT Bestseller, or what have you, then you are tied to Amazon. Also, most people's idea of "a book" even one with DRM is something you can sell or give to a friend when you are done, and Amazon's DRM policies do not allow that. Amazon's DRM policies also means that one cannot "borrow" DRM books from public libraries -- public libraries DO nowadays have systems to allow patrons to "check out" and "check back in" DRM books over the internet no less, BUT Amazon's DRM policies are not compatible with these library systems. * There is no good way of organizing books on the Kindle, not even using something as simple as a traditional computer directory structure. Some of us end up with 100s of documents and books on our Kindle, which tends to overwhelm the user interface, which is based a simple sorted list, such as "list all by author" or "list all by title", or "list all by newest first." Yes one can keep the Kindle books on one's computer and organize things there, but, you know.... * If you live in the 'burbs like I do getting the whispernet connection to work or not is a hit-or-miss proposition. In the case of the Amazon paid downloads the system is smart enough to keep trying until it succeeds, but for "free" downloads or internet use, if you lose a connection half-way through a download you end up with a broken book file on your Kindle, and there is no way to fix the broken book problem short of attaching the Kindle to your desktop computer and using the file browser on the computer to manually remove that broken book file.
Just got my Kindle DX so I am giving first impressions of it in PDF mode used in conjunction with Google Books: 1) This combination is very useful. 2) Page turns are very slow -- as in 10 seconds to render a page turn. 3) The result has a slightly blurry "photocopy" appearance. 4) There is some charm in seeing an old book in its original formatting. 5) I'd rather read the same book in PG mobi format if it existed. 6) Personally, I really like the larger format of the DX and the heft of it -- its more like reading a high-quality hard-cover book, whereas the smallish Kindle 2 would be like reading the Norton's paperback edition. Personally, I cannot imagine reading a book in a tiny cellphone type format -- but you'all have heard those words from me before! 7) The DX works very well for PDF technical documents, and I think it may very well find a following among colleges and those (like myself) who read lots of technical documents. Obviously technical documents do not have the "slightly blurry" aspect of Google books since that is just an artifact of the Google book scanning process. Also page turns on technical documents only take about a half a second. 8) I would think Amazon will now start selling some books in PDF format or other fixed-format because some publishers, of cookbooks say, would rather just do that rather than having to reformat a book to support MOBI unfixed-format. In summary, I think this combination is a potent competitor to PG but not a knockout, and I would think that the price is the big stumbling block, NOT the size.
PS: The Web Browser in the DX is also more useful with the PG website, and with the new support for MOBI files, so that's a good thing!
A the last dinner I had, at the very nice Chicago restaurant called The Bourgeois Pig, on Fullerton, everyone in the room I was in was on a computer, iPhone, etc., except me, as I am sure my friends are tired of seeing me show off my "new" new eBook reader, which is a four year old cellphone that does a half decent wifi and doubles as a more than half decent type of an eBook reader. What I did NOT realize at the time was the these people were ALL heavily into eBooks, and when our own conversation had a turn in that directtion it was totally amazing to see all of them get into the conversation, and apparently I have bought a "new" old iPhone, when the person upgrades. So far all of the people I have showed my new phone "reader" to have been surprised at how easy it is to read on it, even people in their 70's who need reading glasses to read books, or anything else. Hence, I now think even more that it is merely a matter of a personal taste issue when some people get so violently up on their soapboxes about how bad it is to read on small screens such as cell phones, even the larger iPhone and clones. My own reader phone is probably not much over 2" by 2" and I am will have to measure to be sure, but certainly not large, though more of it is screen than on most cells, but nothing, nothing at all, like the iPhone. I will continue to experiment, and I do understand margins-- how much they get torn up on the smaller screens, and I have an idea that just scrolling the text by, like ye olde "speed readers" we used in our grade school reading classes back in the 50's. . .just let it flow by and focus on phrases. This should not be a hard thing to program. . . . Meanwhile, my four year old phone cost about $50 and came in with 4 batteries, all working, several chargers, stands, and other assorted accessories. I will admit it's another learning curve without the manual, but it's already amazed any number of people who have asked, and we have surfed the Net with the built in browsers, added Mobi and a few other reader programs, and this olde phone is capable of holding as many books as the newly updated larger capacity of the latest Kindle, and serves fine with wifi and without a subscription to any phone service at all. More later, Thanks!!! Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg Inventor of ebooks Recommended Books: Dandelion Wine, by Ray Bradbury: For The Right Brain Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand: For The Left Brain [or both] Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson: To Understand The Internet The Phantom Tollbooth, by Norton Juster: Lesson of Life. . . If you ever do not get a prompt response, please resend, then keep resending, I won't mind getting several copies per week.
Below find a link to an Amazon Kindle user forum where users compare their experiences and happinesses reading Kindle books on iPhones using the Kindle iPhone app. Many people are very happy with this experience -- *personally* I can't imagine it [sort of like watching a movie thru a peep hole] -- but that doesn't mean there aren't other people who are happy with it! http://tinyurl.com/nqyspj But this is somewhat of a different issue than PDF + Kindle DX in that the Google Books approach of simply digitizing the page images of a book is a perhaps reasonable approach where the readership for that book is small compared to the effort required to take the Gutenberg approach of producing a clean digital text. If one is going to simply digitize the page images of a book then one needs a reader with a screen big enough to display that page image legibly -- unless one imagines a technology to slice and re-dice the page image in an intelligent manner so that snippets of the page image fits readably onto an iPhone.
As I recall, there are a number of "pan and scan" readers, that allow you to enlarge .pdf files to any size you like, then move across the page as you like. However, I doubt if this creates a great read experience-- too much time at the controls, unless you can read with an automated movement program, such as is available in reader programs for many kinds of eBooks. I'm afraid my own reading style of jumping ahead to do the phrasing formulation while I am still "reading" a previous portion might not go too well with these, but experiments, though no long term ones, seem to create ok reading to me. Thanks!!! Michael On Sat, 20 Jun 2009, Jim Adcock wrote:
Below find a link to an Amazon Kindle user forum where users compare their experiences and happinesses reading Kindle books on iPhones using the Kindle iPhone app. Many people are very happy with this experience -- *personally* I can't imagine it [sort of like watching a movie thru a peep hole] -- but that doesn't mean there aren't other people who are happy with it!
But this is somewhat of a different issue than PDF + Kindle DX in that the Google Books approach of simply digitizing the page images of a book is a perhaps reasonable approach where the readership for that book is small compared to the effort required to take the Gutenberg approach of producing a clean digital text. If one is going to simply digitize the page images of a book then one needs a reader with a screen big enough to display that page image legibly -- unless one imagines a technology to slice and re-dice the page image in an intelligent manner so that snippets of the page image fits readably onto an iPhone.
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participants (6)
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Jim Adcock
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Lee Passey -
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Ralf Stephan