Re: [gutvol-d] on the question of sidenotes, footnotes, and end-notes
That does work, but why note use the already existing <note place="margin"> markup? Then, you don't have to do the extra work of segmenting your paragraph for the same result. For an HTML edition, it already works in our transform. The text version we just have to decide HOW to handle it, then code up the transform. My version of your example: <div n="1" type="chapter"> <head type="title">The Romance of Merlin.</head> <head type="section title">CHAPTER I</head> <head type="subtitle">CONSULTATION OF DEVILS, AND BIRTH OF MERLIN.</head> <pb ed="folio" n="1a" /> <p><note place="margin">Anger of the Devil against our Lord.</note> Fvll wrothe and angry was the Deuell, whan that oure lorde hadde ben in helle, and had take oute Adam and Eve, and other at his plesier; and whan the fendes sien that, they hadden right grete feer and gret merveile; <note place="margin">Assembly of the fiends and their discussion.</note> thei assembleden to-gedir, and seiden, "What is he this thus vs supprisith and dis-troyeth, in so moche that our strengthes ne nought ellis that we haue may nought with-holde hym, nor again hym stonde in no diffence; but that he doth all that hym lyketh, we ne trowe not that eny man myght be bore of woman, but that he sholde ben oures, and he that thus vs distroyeth, how is he born in whom we <unclear resp="wheatly">did</unclear> knowe non erthely delyte." Than ansuerde anothir fende and seide, "He this hath distroyed that which we wende sholde haue be mooste oure a-vaile. <note place="margin">The prophets said that God should come on earth to save sinners.</note> Remembre ye not how the prophetes seiden, how that god shulde come in to erthe for to saue the synners of Adam and Eve, and we yeden bysily a-boute theym that so seiden, and dide them moste turment of eny othir pepill, and it semed by their <unclear resp="wheatly">feire</unclear> semblant, that it greved hem but litill or nought, but they comforted hem that weren synners, and seide that oon sholde come, which sholde delyuer hem out of tharldome and disese.</p> <pb ed="eets" n="1" /> </div> Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Collins <brad@chenla.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] on the question of sidenotes, footnotes, and end-notes Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:57:42 +0700
The side note is not always the same as an end note or foot note. Take the following attempt at an ascii version of the first page of the EETS edition of the Romance of Merlin. It's the best I could do using a proportional font.
Note: This example is 80 columns--some mail programs might mangle this. If it looks like it's a mess, try re-sizing your window larger. If it still doesn't look right then your mailer has inserted hard line-breaks.
-- Begin -- The Romance of Merlin.
---------
CHAPTER I . CONSULTATION OF DEVILS, AND BIRTH OF MERLIN.
Fvll wrothe and angry was the Deuell, whan that oure lorde [Fol 1a.] hadde ben in helle, and had take oute Adam and Eve, and Anger of the other at his plesier; and whan the fendes sien that, they hadden Devil against right grete feer and gret merveile; thei assembleden to-gedir, our Lord. and seiden, "What is he this thus vs supprisith and dis- troyeth, in so moche that our strengthes ne nought ellis that we Assembly of haue may nought with-holde hym, nor again hym stonde in no the fiends diffence; but that he doth all that hym lyketh, we ne trowe not and their dis- that eny man myght be bore of woman, but that he sholde ben cussion. oures, and he that thus vs distroyeth, how is he born in whom we [did]1 knowe non erthely delyte." Than ansuerde anothir fende and seide, "He this hath distroyed that which we wende sholde haue be mooste oure a-vaile. Remembre ye not how the prophetes The prophets seiden, how that god shulde come in to erthe for to saue the said that God synners of Adam and Eve, and we yeden bysily a-boute theym should come that so seiden, and dide them moste turment of eny othir pepill, on earth to and it semed by their [feire]1 semblant, that it greved hem but save sinners. litill or nought, but they comforted hem that weren synners, and seide that oon sholde come, which sholde delyuer hem out of tharldome and disese.
1 Illegible
1 -- End --
First let's ignore the running analysis and do a simple markup of the main body of the passage:
--- <div n="1" type="chapter"> <head type="title">The Romance of Merlin.</head> <head type="section title">CHAPTER I</head> <head type="subtitle">CONSULTATION OF DEVILS, AND BIRTH OF MERLIN.</head>
<pb ed="folio" n="1a" />
<p>Fvll wrothe and angry was the Deuell, whan that oure lorde hadde ben in helle, and had take oute Adam and Eve, and other at his plesier; and whan the fendes sien that, they hadden right grete feer and gret merveile; thei assembleden to-gedir, and seiden, "What is he this thus vs supprisith and dis-troyeth, in so moche that our strengthes ne nought ellis that we haue may nought with-holde hym, nor again hym stonde in no diffence; but that he doth all that hym lyketh, we ne trowe not that eny man myght be bore of woman, but that he sholde ben oures, and he that thus vs distroyeth, how is he born in whom we <unclear resp="wheatly">did</unclear> knowe non erthely delyte." Than ansuerde anothir fende and seide, "He this hath distroyed that which we wende sholde haue be mooste oure a-vaile. Remembre ye not how the prophetes seiden, how that god shulde come in to erthe for to saue the synners of Adam and Eve, and we yeden bysily a-boute theym that so seiden, and dide them moste turment of eny othir pepill, and it semed by their <unclear resp="wheatly">feire</unclear> semblant, that it greved hem but litill or nought, but they comforted hem that weren synners, and seide that oon sholde come, which sholde delyuer hem out of tharldome and disese.</p>
<pb ed="eets" n="1" /> </div> ...
Except for the <unclear> tag this is all basic TEI-Lite.
We have replaced the page break note and the page break with <pb> tags which indicate which edition they came from (the original folio manuscript or the EETS edition).
We have also marked up the `Illegible' text with the <unclear> tag with the responsibility attribute indicating that the original editor of the EETS edition, Henry B. Wheatley was responsible for indicating that the marked text was unclear.
Now, what about the running analysis. Can we use TEI to mark this up as well?
Yes.
--- <div n="1" type="chapter"> <head type="title">The Romance of Merlin.</head> <head type="section title">CHAPTER I</head> <head type="sybtitle">CONSULTATION OF DEVILS, AND BIRTH OF MERLIN.</head>
<pb ed="folio" n="1a" />
<p> <seg id="1">Fvll wrothe and angry was the Deuell, whan that oure lorde hadde ben in helle, and had take oute Adam and Eve, and other at his plesier; and whan the fendes sien that, they hadden right grete feer and gret merveile;</seg>
<seg id="2">thei assembleden to-gedir, and seiden, "What is he this thus vs supprisith and dis- troyeth, in so moche that our strengthes ne nought ellis that we haue may nought with-holde hym, nor again hym stonde in no diffence; but that he doth all that hym lyketh, we ne trowe not that eny man myght be bore of woman, but that he sholde ben oures, and he that thus vs distroyeth, how is he born in whom we <unclear resp="wheatly">did</unclear> knowe non erthely delyte." Than ansuerde anothir fende and seide, "He this hath distroyed that which we wende sholde haue be mooste oure a-vaile.</seg>
<seg id="3">Remembre ye not how the prophetes seiden, how that god shulde come in to erthe for to saue the synners of Adam and Eve, and we yeden bysily a-boute theym that so seiden, and dide them moste turment of eny othir pepill, and it semed by their <unclear resp="wheatly">feire</unclear> semblant, that it greved hem but litill or nought, but they comforted hem that weren synners, and seide that oon sholde come, which sholde delyuer hem out of tharldome and disese.</seg> </p>
<pb ed="eets" n="1" />
<interpGrp type='analysis' resp="wheatley"> <interp id='1' value='Anger of the Devil against our Lord.' /> <interp id='2' value='Assembly of the fiends and their discussion.' /> <interp id='3' value='The prophets said that God should come on earth to save sinners.' /> </interpGrp> </div> ...
We've broken the paragraph into sections which each have an id which is used to link textual analysis using <interp> tags which are collected in a `interpGrp' group tag.
An <interpGrp> can be created for the whole chapter or paragraph by paragraph.
Obviously this solution uses full blown TEI, not just the TEI-Lite subset, but it does work.
I would suggest that in the case of works like The Romance of Merlin, that PG should create two editions.
The first would be a clean, reference edition of the original text, and then a second edition with all of the textual analysis and notes from the victorian edition.
So using FRBR Entities the resulting texts would look something like this (I think, this is very confusing and I could have screwed this up).
W Romance of Merlin (circa 1450-1460). E ... Text of Middle Eng. Translation of Middle French Suite De Merlin. M ...... Original MS. Transcription. I ......... Manuscript (University Library, Cambridge University) E ...... Merlin A Prose Romance (Edited By Henry B. Wheatley, Introduction by Edward Mead, 1899) M ......... EETS ed. London, 1899. M ......... PG TEI Master ed based on EETS ed. 2004. F ............... PG Plain Text Ed. F ............... PG HTML Ed. E ...... Text Only Electronic Edition (TEI Ed. 2004). M ............ PG TEI Master Ed. F ............... PG Plain Text Ed. F ............... PG HTML Ed.
W ==> Work E ==> Expression M ==> Manifestation F ==> Format I ==> Item/Instance
The Text-Only TEI version could then be used as a base reference text by anyone to create new annotated editions.
b/
-- Brad Collins <brad@chenla.org>, Bangkok, Thailand _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
"Joshua Hutchinson" <joshua@hutchinson.net> writes:
That does work, but why note use the already existing <note place="margin"> markup? Then, you don't have to do the extra work of segmenting your paragraph for the same result. For an HTML edition, it already works in our transform. The text version we just have to decide HOW to handle it, then code up the transform.
I'm not very happy with segmenting either... but I am trying to fit the concept of a running analysis into a larger framework for scaling texts. To understand what I am talking about it helps to think of a book in terms of the 3D Modeling concept of LOD (Level of Detail). A 3D computer model is made up of polygons. The more polygons you have, the more detailed the model. Models used in big Hollywood films may have millions of polygons in a model. This allows you to create believable virtual characters like Gollum, or (sadly) Jar Jar Binks. But all of those polygons are expensive to render. And if have a shot with Gollum in the distance, you will be spending enormous amounts of resources to draw polygons that can't be seen. To deal with this, LOD is used to reduce the number of polygons in a model the farther away it gets and then increase them again as the model gets closer. When you see a book from far away, you may only see the title on the spine on the shelf. When you get closer you take the book off the shelf and read a synopsis of the contents of the book on the dust jacket. Get closer still and you see a table of contents. Closer again you turn to a chapter and there might be a summary of the chapter at the beginning. Then, in the case of works like the Merlin, there is a running analysis which provides a paragraph by paragraph summary. Then, finally you get as close as you can and are confronted by the body of text itself. So, in this way you can see the running analysis as a way of zooming in or scaling the text. In the XML tests I was doing two years ago on the Merlin I used this concept to progressively zoom in on the book from a single title in a list, to a brief synopsis to the detailed synopsis to a table of contents to a chapter summary to the running analysis. With this kind of a structural approach to summaries and descriptions it was easy to create some very powerful browsing interfaces and indexing mechanisms. I haven't been happy with what I'd done before with the running analysis so my last post were working notes towards finding a way of incorporating summaries at different scales into a text rather than a proposal for PG. Your note approach is fine for providing a presentational means of adding in a running analysis, but it doesn't tell us the span of text that each note describes. This is why TEI offers the <seg> and <span> approach. I _DO_ agree that this as overkill for PG texts. When I went to market today, I was struck by the fact that the egg stalls recieve eggs from the farms in plastic flats. The eggs arrive in an organized structured way. The eggs sellers then proceed to pile them into piles in bins by price. This helps to muddle the difference between the eggs when you, the customer are picking through them. The structure and organization provided by the flats was counter productive for the egg sellers because it made it more difficult to unload bum eggs. In the same way, excessive structure in a marked up text makes it more difficult to transform into simpler formats. It would be very awkward to map the notes in the interp tags to the segs in the text. Your notes approach is a lot easier. But I like the idea of having a base reference text which others can use to overlay their own annotations. The `resp' attribute is good at indicating who has annotated what in a text, so that you could easily toggle between annotations from different sources, or strip them out all together. The EETS version of the Merlin is a base text which Wheatley has overlaid all sorts of information. It's a good idea to keep the markup mechanisms for overlayed annotations separate from the base text that is being annotated. This is a larger issue and goal than simply providing electronic editions of books, and is beyond what PG is about. But it is worth keeping these ideas in the back of your mind, if for no other reason than to remember that reading a book from cover to cover is not the only or even the most common way that books are used. b/ -- Brad Collins <brad@chenla.org>, Bangkok, Thailand
Brad wrote:
Josh wrote:
That does work, but why note use the already existing <note place="margin"> markup? Then, you don't have to do the extra work of segmenting your paragraph for the same result. For an HTML edition, it already works in our transform. The text version we just have to decide HOW to handle it, then code up the transform.
I'm not very happy with segmenting either... but I am trying to fit the concept of a running analysis into a larger framework for scaling texts.
[snip of example]
Your note approach is fine for providing a presentational means of adding in a running analysis, but it doesn't tell us the span of text that each note describes. This is why TEI offers the <seg> and <span> approach...
In the same way, excessive structure in a marked up text makes it more difficult to transform into simpler formats. It would be very awkward to map the notes in the interp tags to the segs in the text. Your notes approach is a lot easier...
The EETS version of the Merlin is a base text which Wheatley has overlaid all sorts of information. It's a good idea to keep the markup mechanisms for overlayed annotations separate from the base text that is being annotated.
This is a larger issue and goal than simply providing electronic editions of books, and is beyond what PG is about. But it is worth keeping these ideas in the back of your mind, if for no other reason than to remember that reading a book from cover to cover is not the only or even the most common way that books are used.
From the discussion of implementing item (1) within TEI, it appears
We have two issues as I see them here: 1) Notes, sidebars, running analysis, and other types of "out-of-spine" chunks of texts, as found in the original source work. To what chunk of text in the main, "in-spine" text flow each out-of-spine chunk applies to may not be explicitly marked in the source text. Rather it must be figured out by contextual analysis. Obviously, these "out-of-spine" chunks are important to be kept with the Master document format, whatever that may be. 2) Bookmarks, annotations, running commentary, references to and from other digital text works, etc., which is added on by third parties. This is the exciting aspect to make digital texts very useful, as I've previously noted. It is important to keep this stuff separate from the Master document format. Assuming the Master digital texts are XML documents, item (2) can be implemented using the various related W3C specifications of XLink/XPath/XPointer. For example, it is possible with the full XPointer specification to define an exact chunk of text within an XML document. there's more than one way to do it, with segmenting allowing one to specify the exact range of in-spine text which any out-of-spine chunk applies to. Just some general observations without any suggestions. Jon Noring (p.s., I use the terms "out-of-spine" and "in-spine" loosely based upon the Open eBook Publication Structure, which defines these constructs so ebook reading systems can implement more advanced ways to present "out-of-spine" content. As Bowerbird noted, such "out-of-spine" stuff can be presented in more innovative ways than which is allowed in print, and even in HTML. For example, OEBPS suggests popups to present out-of-spine content, which the Microsoft Reader system implements (but which is largely unknown.) The biggest mistake which the creators of HTML made is not to include a <note> (or more generically-named) tag, which can define some chunk of inline text as being "out-of-spine", and thereby be presented in a popup window or similar innovative fashion. Of course, this would have added significant complexity to the early browsers such as Mosaic, and thus probably explains why this feature was not implemented. But this lack of vision for such a powerful feature is still regrettable. OpenReader definitely plans on making this a major feature, thus one reason we're interested in native recognition of TEI documents.)
And now for a slight break from the xml/tei discussion... One nice thing about helping to add additional information to the PG catalog is that sometimes I end up learning about some person who I never would have run accross otherwise. The most recent example is Sidney L. Gulick As I read a little more about this man, I thought that this is someone I would not hesiate to call an American hero. He dedicated his life to international friendship and understanding, most notably instigating a program whereby over 12,000 "friendship dolls" were made by Americans and sent to Japanese schools. I've put together a wikipedia article about him and linked to it from his author record in the PG catalog. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Gulick
participants (4)
-
Andrew Sly -
Brad Collins -
Jon Noring -
Joshua Hutchinson