Re: 14.8 million ipads sold (in 9 months) during 2010
ok, jim, it's getting late, time to fish or cut bait... no more stonewalling with silence. i've given you ample opportunity to weigh in with your opinions on several issues here, but you have _failed_ to take advantage of that opportunity, so the time for waiting has come to an end, my friend. i made all the changes you asked for on the .html... you have one last chance today to change anything. if you don't, i will consider that you have _approved_ the .html as it now exists, and i'll go forward with it. you also have one last chance to analyze the .mobi, .epub, and .pdf files that i created, and to suggest anything _unique_ to them (i.e., _not_ in the .html) which you would like to see changed. last chance... i will still make some final objections to your stance that project gutenberg should be using .html as its "master-format", ones which tie everything together, but if you have any counterarguments to positions that i've laid out thus far, you must make them now. otherwise, i will assume that you have none, and i will use that as an additional argument against your stance. *** and henceforth, if you ever make this silly suggestion, people can be referred back to these recent threads in the archives just by pointing, to see you have no game. bluster and bull crap is just about all you have to offer. *** but, i must say, jim, you did achieve one "honor" here. in this thread, you have managed to attain criticism from me, and from marcello, and from david starner. considering the fact each one of the three of us hates the others -- "hate" is a strong word, and it certainly can't apply to someone you wouldn't even recognize on the street, but we'll let that technicality pass here -- getting all three of us to agree that you are wrong, well, that constitutes a major achievement, to be sure. you are either _brilliant_, jim, in a way comparable to the sun on a cloudless day, or else you're just _wrong_. and i am positive it is completely safe to say you are not brilliant. still, that's quite an "achievement", to be _so_ wrong that you created _this_ unity of detractors. perhaps you should direct your efforts at a "solution" for the middle east... what's the worst you could do? -bowerbird
considering the fact each one of the three of us hates the others -- "hate" is a strong word, and it certainly can't apply to someone you wouldn't even recognize on the street, but we'll let that technicality pass here -- getting all three of us to agree that you are wrong, well, that constitutes a major achievement, to be sure.
Well, hey, if I can do anything to ever get any of you guys together in a way that actually makes a positive contribution to real-world PG customers, then all the insults you have flung my way will have been worth it! Again, anyone else still listening to this thread (god help you) can easily check out the veracity of the various claims and the counter-claims simply by trying out the files in question on their honest-to-god reader devices. You don't have to take BB's words -- or mine -- on this matter. z-m-l.com vs. gutenberg.org -- go check it out for yourself! Personally, I don't think even IF BB's stuff made a theoretical contribution it would matter. For the simple reason that PG contributors do not want to use yet-another custom PG file format. If contributors want to submit in ZML or Marcello-L then let them -- as long as you let the rest of us fix what ends up busted in the other file formats -- so that customers with HTML, EPUB, or MOBI devices can actually read and enjoy that PG contribution, rather than have their experience of some fine author intruded-upon by the technical politics and/or favorites of one or another PG contributor.
On Fri, 4 Feb 2011, Jim Adcock wrote:
Again, anyone else still listening to this thread (god help you)
Well, I can't pretend that I'm reading every word, but I do skim through enough to get the general idea. :) --Andrew
I tend to read at least some of each message. mh On Fri, 4 Feb 2011, Andrew Sly wrote:
On Fri, 4 Feb 2011, Jim Adcock wrote:
Again, anyone else still listening to this thread (god help you)
Well, I can't pretend that I'm reading every word, but I do skim through enough to get the general idea. :)
--Andrew _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Is the debate getting anywhere? John Redmond
The "usual suspects" have been arguing variations on the same few issues on this mailing list for at least a couple of years now. I wouldn't really expect it to "get anywhere" in the sense that you mean. Most volunteers just continue with their regular ebook production, without even knowing about all of this fun exchange. --Andrew On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, John Redmond wrote:
Is the debate getting anywhere?
John Redmond
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Most volunteers just continue with their regular ebook production, without even knowing about all of this fun exchange.
One CAN run PG volunteer produced txt files, and html files (which get compiled into epub and mobi files) on a wide variety of PCs, MACs, Un*x machines, wide variety of browsers, IE8, IE6, Mozilla, Opera, etc, wide variety of devices: Kindle, Blackberry, cellphones, iPad, iPod, Nook, Sony Reader, etc. Will the files display the way the volunteer expected when they wrote that file while viewing it on their FooBar 1000 ? Nope. But will it be readable and usable? More-or-less. Typically the LESS effort the volunteer puts into fancy-formatting the file, the MORE likely it will end up appearing readable and attractive on some device other than a FooBar 1000. The question is, do "we" "PG" care, and if we care what should we be doing about it? Or what CAN we do about it? Looking at the HTML its pretty clear some of it is hand-authored, and some is authored using tools. Don't know what you can do to get anyone to change their tools, or convince them that their choice of tools just might be less than ideal. You could probably tell people the problems they are causing a) if they cared and b) if they would believe you when you tell them they are causing problems for the people who in theory would like to read their books. Unfortunately, most instructional books on HTML and CSS are negatively helpful re these issues. Two books I have found that talk pretty honestly about these issues, and which make moderately useful suggestions are: EPUB Straight to the Point: Creating ebooks for the Apple iPad and other ereaders (One-Off) by Elizabeth Castro -- which is a pretty iPad-centric book. And: Kindle Formatting: The Complete Guide To Formatting Books For The Amazon Kindle by Joshua Tallent -- which "obviously" is a pretty Kindle-centric book. But both of them fundamentally talk about the challenge of writing HTML or XHTML that actually displays more-or-less correctly on a large number of different devices. When we see a bunch of volunteers making the same mistakes over and over again, should we tell them? Or (as others are proposing) should we play "bad cop" and tell them in the future the only file format PG is willing to accept is txt70 with a few additional markup rules? Again, the statistics backing up these issues (if anyone believes those either) is, roughly speaking: 30% of the PG readers read on an HTML browser 30% on a Kindle 30% on a EPUB machine and 10% everything else, including PDF and TXT files. Of people using browsers, the statistics are roughly: 40% IE 30% Firefox 15% Chrome 6% Safari 2% Opera And of operating systems used: 83% Windows 9% Mac 2% iOS (iPhone and iPad) 1% Linux What's the point -- if I have one? Namely, "The PG Pundits" are typically NOT well-matched to the needs of the customers. The PG authorship more frequently uses "different" authoring environments than the customer. And that -- if "PG" cares -- there is a very wide variety of customers out there using a very wide variety of machines that interpret and display PG files in a wide variety of different ways.
On 02/07/2011 07:15 PM, Jim Adcock wrote:
Again, the statistics backing up these issues (if anyone believes those either) is, roughly speaking:
30% of the PG readers read on an HTML browser 30% on a Kindle 30% on a EPUB machine and 10% everything else, including PDF and TXT files.
Where did you get those numbers from? The craps table? If you want real numbers, go here: http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/scores/pretty-pictures BTW, the other 2 statistics you posted are also as near the truth as New Zealand is near New York. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
participants (6)
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Andrew Sly -
Bowerbird＠aol.com -
Jim Adcock -
John Redmond -
Marcello Perathoner -
Michael S. Hart