Kindle user problem with PG's The Touchstone
A message to the Errata system (see below) reports a problem with Edith Wharton's "The Touchstone", PG #267. Do other Kindle (II) users experience the reported problem with this particular book? Any advice I can forward to the writer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used The Magic Catalog of Project Gutenberg E-Books (MOBI Edition) running on my Kindle II To download by wireless The Touchstone. The download seemed to be successful (ie.The Touchstone was now listed on my Home list). When I opened the book it opened to the Title page. After that I lost control of all normal Kindle functions (Next Page, Prev Page, Home, Back). I then had to reset the Kindle. I tried a second time with the same exact results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Al
...on my Kindle II To download by wireless The Touchstone. The download seemed to be successful (ie.The Touchstone was now listed on my Home list). When I opened the book it opened to the Title page. After that I lost control of all normal Kindle functions (Next Page, Prev Page, Home, Back).
I can confirm that I downloaded The Touchstone directly from the PG site to my Kindle DX, using a hardwired (USB) connection -- thus avoiding the possibility of a damaged whispernet wireless download (which is also known to happen). On the Kindle DX The Touchstone also makes bad things happen. So this appears to be an incompatibility between something in The Touchstone and Kindle software in general. Opening The Touchstone in Mobipocket Reader shows no problems using that MOBI file reader. Guessing based on superficial appearances only, the TOC in the HTML version of The Touchstone appears to be using an unusual format which has three columns of HTML links. I'm guessing the Kindles et al are not correctly handling whatever gets generated from the HTML in the MOBI file's attempt to handle this unusual formatting choice for the TOC. See for example "A Danish Parsonage" TOC for a "Lowest Common Denominator" style of formatting of a TOC that I would think any MOBI or EPUB reader should be able to handle no problem. Kindle II and Kindle DX don't even handle "normal" tabular representation of TOCs correctly -- they don't normally "break" on the tabular representation, they just don't allow one to actually access the active links within a tabular TOC either. ...of course, if PG were to come up with a standard way to actually implement the standard TOC format supported in the Spine of MOBI and EPUB file formats automagically from a PG-standardized HTML format, then presumably it would all work as the devices expect....
Thanks, Jim - I'll pass this along. Re the three-column table of contents you mention: preparing a jump table like in Touchstone is a fairly common technique the WWers use to add a table of contents, of sorts, to HTML versions of updated/reposted older books that didn't have TOC's to start with. Examples: The Land that Time Forgot, PG #551, or The People that Time Forgot, PG #552. It also happens occasionally with newer books where chapters are numbered but not titled, and there's no TOC in the source. The preparer can optionally add a jump table for the convenience of HTML readers. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Adcock" <jimad@msn.com> To: "'Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion'" <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Kindle user problem with PG's The Touchstone
...on my Kindle II To download by wireless The Touchstone. The download seemed to be successful (ie.The Touchstone was now listed on my Home list). When I opened the book it opened to the Title page. After that I lost control of all normal Kindle functions (Next Page, Prev Page, Home, Back).
I can confirm that I downloaded The Touchstone directly from the PG site to my Kindle DX, using a hardwired (USB) connection -- thus avoiding the possibility of a damaged whispernet wireless download (which is also known to happen). On the Kindle DX The Touchstone also makes bad things happen. So this appears to be an incompatibility between something in The Touchstone and Kindle software in general. Opening The Touchstone in Mobipocket Reader shows no problems using that MOBI file reader.
Guessing based on superficial appearances only, the TOC in the HTML version of The Touchstone appears to be using an unusual format which has three columns of HTML links. I'm guessing the Kindles et al are not correctly handling whatever gets generated from the HTML in the MOBI file's attempt to handle this unusual formatting choice for the TOC. See for example "A Danish Parsonage" TOC for a "Lowest Common Denominator" style of formatting of a TOC that I would think any MOBI or EPUB reader should be able to handle no problem. Kindle II and Kindle DX don't even handle "normal" tabular representation of TOCs correctly -- they don't normally "break" on the tabular representation, they just don't allow one to actually access the active links within a tabular TOC either.
...of course, if PG were to come up with a standard way to actually implement the standard TOC format supported in the Spine of MOBI and EPUB file formats automagically from a PG-standardized HTML format, then presumably it would all work as the devices expect....
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Kindle DX now available in an international version (personally I wish they would add wifi) http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=176060&p=irol-news Rumors of an Apple Slate version and e-book store: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/apple-tablet-everything/ Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook computer to a Kindle DX: The netbook when closed has about the same footprint as a DX, but is three times heavier and three times as thick. When opened it is twice as big as the DX but has a display size which is slightly smaller. Downloading to the netbook via wifi is MUCH better than downloading to the Kindle DX via Whispernet. The screen is in landscape format whereas on the DX it is the preferable portrait orientation. The screen resolution on a netbook is 100 dpi verses 150 dpi on the DX. In terms of pts, this means that 5 pts is barely readable on the netbook vs. 3 pts on a DX vs. 1 pt fonts are readable on a laser printer. Not that you want to read that small -- but rather just to give you a figure of relative legibility. Why does one care? Well, I TRY reading books on the netbook and after reading a couple pages I say "forgetaboutit" and I take a USB cable and connect the DX to the netbook and transfer the e-book over to the Kindle where I experience a "true book experience." Reading on a netbook, to my taste, never ever feels like really reading a book, whereas on the DX it does feel like really reading a book. Why, I ask myself? The only answers I can come up with are 1) the higher resolution on the DX makes reading less tiresome. 2) the simpler interface on the DX [once you actually get the e-book there] is less intrusive on the reading experience than all the mickey mouse trackball rigmarole and special function keys found on the netbook 3) the netbook is too heavy to read holding in one hand. 4) the glossy display on the netbook reflects images but personally I don't find that too bothersome 5) the netbook battery keeps running out whereas the DX runs for a week between charges. So personally I will continue with the e-ink experience in spite of that technology's limitations and "forget about" LCD displays at least until something comes along with much higher resolution and longer battery life. I still like the netbook a whole lot for watching kat videos on YouTube and looking up the daily weather report....
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Jim Adcock <jimad@msn.com> wrote:
Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook computer to a Kindle DX:
Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a model number?
On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, David A. Desrosiers wrote:
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Jim Adcock <jimad@msn.com> wrote:
Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook computer to a Kindle DX:
Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a model number?
Wait, What? When did eReaders starting having to come with eInk? Got a product definition? I'm sure the eInk patent holders would be thrilled, though. Let's see. . .how many eReaders were out there before eInk? Does this mean we have to hire Winston Smith to rewrite history?
On 1/7/10 3:36 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, David A. Desrosiers wrote:
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Jim Adcock<jimad@msn.com> wrote:
Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook computer to a Kindle DX:
Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a model number?
Wait, What? When did eReaders starting having to come with eInk?
Since when have LCD screens become comparable to eInk screens? The point made was that it otherwise is a comparison of apples and oranges. Regards, Walter (has used netbooks and an iRex iLiad extensively and the iLiad wins hands down in the readability department)
Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a model number?
Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the refresh limitations of e-Ink screens. What I was doing was following up on a thread from before Xmas where Michael and I and et al were hashing out what kinds of devices one can ACTUALLY use to read PG books. One can certainly just print them out on a Laser Jet printer and read them on paper, but then, really, what's the point? One wants books in an electronic form so that one can read them in an electronic form. I for one, cannot imagine sitting at my desk reading War and Peace on my desktop computer! The question then becomes, what kind of devices does one actually read PG books on? Why should PG volunteers care? Well, we shouldn't, unless PG is doing a weak job of supporting those devices people actually want to read e-books on, in which case PG is doing a poor job of making our efforts useful to the real world out there. What various people have proposed that the "real world" ought to be reading e-books on include: Cell phones Kindles Sony Ebook Readers Netbooks Netbooks and some Cell phones want files in HTML format. Some cell phones with add-on software can also handle MOBI and EPUB format. Netbooks with add-on software can also handle MOBI and EPUB format. While I am a fan of the Kindle series of e-book readers as offering the most "book like" reading experience of any electronic device I have been able to find, I was hopeful of being able to use a Netbook with add-on MOBI and EPUB reader support in order to make a "vendor agnostic" version of an e-book reader that would not raise the hackles of some PG'ers the way that Amazon and the Kindle does -- because, let's be honest, eventually DRM *IS* going to start to bring the efforts of organizations like PG to grief -- one might argue that the most recent "Mickey Mouse" Copyright Laws *ARE* already a response to DRM and publishers wanting to maintain a royalty flow "forever" instead of for the constitutionally mandated finite period of time. So, anyway Santa brought me a netbook for Xmas and I tried using it as an e-book reader but I rapidly found after trying to read a book on it more than a few pages I would want to transfer that book to the Kindle and read it there. Why? Primarily because of the difference between LCD display technology and e-Ink technology. And why does that matter? As far as I can figure out, it is because LCD display technology is lower resolution than e-Ink technology, causing the eyes and the brain to tire more quickly. Also LCD display have the "screen door" effect, where the fine-line horizontal and vertical separating line between each LCD pixel leads one to the feeling that one is reading a book through a "screen door." Now clearly some people care about these issues more than others -- for example I just borrowed a hard-copy of My Antonia for comparison and I am now struck at just how poorly that paperback book is printed! There are too many words per line, the font chosen is too light, the paper chosen is too yellow, etc.... One might propose that one needs a hybrid machine with a fast LCD display and fast wifi connection in conjunction with a separate e-Ink display to read the books on -- such is what B&N made in their Nook, except they poorly implemented it, and totally hamstrung the device so that you can ONLY get books from B&N, basically. Or you could "make" such a device for yourself by connecting a netbook to a Kindle for example, using the netbook to browse the web and then connect the Kindle to the netbook and transfer the e-book files to the Kindle to actually read them there. Which is in fact what I am doing, except now one has a netbook and USB cable laying around while one reads on the Kindle. Or if you take the Kindle on the airplane with you, then presumably the netbook stays home. And after a while, connecting a Kindle to a PC with a USB cable every time you want to transfer an e-book because tiresome.
James Adcock said:
Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the refresh limitations of e-Ink screens.
In reality, all that's necessary is a device driver that understands that, and those already exist.
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:52 PM, D Garcia <donovan@abs.net> wrote:
James Adcock said:
Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the refresh limitations of e-Ink screens.
In reality, all that's necessary is a device driver that understands that, and those already exist.
Most UIs rely on immediate visual feedback. Assuming screen refresh latencies on the order of 1-4 seconds, any standard UI will feel extremely sluggish. Partial screen refreshes may be much faster... I haven't read any datasheets for the parts involved. -Bob
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010, Robert Cicconetti wrote:
Partial screen refreshes may be much faster... I haven't read any datasheets for the parts involved.
The early parts could not do partial refreshes. I haven't looked at eink since about 2001 though. They were like a flash part, you sent them an erase command and then sent which pixels you wanted changed. Flash parts now do the erases in many smaller blocks. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/
Hi James, All, Am 07.01.2010 um 20:35 schrieb James Adcock:
Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a model number?
Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the refresh limitations of e-Ink screens.
What I was doing was following up on a thread from before Xmas where Michael and I and et al were hashing out what kinds of devices one can ACTUALLY use to read PG books. One can certainly just print them out on a Laser Jet printer and read them on paper, but then, really, what's the point? One wants books in an electronic form so that one can read them in an electronic form. I for one, cannot imagine sitting at my desk reading War and Peace on my desktop computer! The question then becomes, what kind of devices does one actually read PG books on? Why should PG volunteers care? Well, we shouldn't, unless PG is doing a weak job of supporting those devices people actually want to read e-books on, in which case PG is doing a poor job of making our efforts useful to the real world out there. What various people have proposed that the "real world" ought to be reading e-books on include:
Cell phones
Kindles
Sony Ebook Readers
Netbooks Well might as well add 17" Laptops. Fits nice and comfy on my lap or stomach when lying flat. keeps me nice and cosy, too.
regards Keith.
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:35 PM, James Adcock <jimad@msn.com> wrote:
Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the refresh limitations of e-Ink screens.
You mean like Android, based on Linux? Alex: http://www.springdesign.com/ Nook: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/nook/features/ ...and others. Plenty of OS' out there that currently run on netbooks natively understand eInk screens.
You mean like Android, based on Linux?
Android isn't typically running on e-Ink displays, unless you mean Moto's prototype work: http://gizmodo.com/5152928/android-on-e+ink-induces-headaches-is-actually-gr eat-news-for-ebook-readers Pixil Qi has a display technology that probably would work better with Android than e-Ink: http://www.pixelqi.com Though it's hard to really tell because their web site doesn't give any specs.
Kindle 2 has just overcome a major limitation in that it now supports PDF files and Landscape Mode. I have confirmed that this works well with Google Books PDF files -- although one does need to use the Kindle 2 in Landscape Mode in order that the results be big enough to read. How to manually force an update on your K2: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200324680
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703405704575015362653644260.ht ml or Google "Apple Sees New Money in Old Media"
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 7:20 PM, James Adcock <jimad@msn.com> wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703405704575015362653644260.ht ml
If it's sporting a color LCD, and not a monochromatic e-Ink display (or one of the color e-Ink displays), it's just going to be a smaller version of a keyboardless Macbook Air with ebooks available through iTunes. Nothing really revolutionary to see here, unless it out-does what the Nook, Que, Alex or similar devices are doing. Judging from what we've seen from Apple lately, I wouldn't put much faith in it changing the industry in any noticeable way. We'll have to wait and see...
Good live blog coverage at: http://live.gdgt.com/2010/01/27/live-apple-come-see-our-latest-creation-tabl et-event-coverage/#sort=desc One negative: it sounds like it is going to be a 100 dpi display.
ePub format -- thank god they didn't create something proprietary!
participants (10)
-
Al Haines (shaw) -
D Garcia -
David A. Desrosiers -
Greg Weeks -
James Adcock -
Jim Adcock
-
Keith J. Schultz -
Michael S. Hart -
Robert Cicconetti -
Walter van Holst