Re: one million units moved in 28 days
projecting Kindle to be at 7 Million
"projections" of future numbers are pure bunk. even estimates of the current number are suspect, since amazon resolutely refuses to announce it, but at least we have auxiliary measures that will provide some kind of realistic bounding restraints, one of the most important being e-book _sales_... in this regard, the best observer to pay attention to is david moynihan -- over at blackmask/munsey's -- who has been paying very close attention for years... david was the one who rang the bell when the kindle started moving substantial units. (and pooh-poohed everything else as mere hype and marketing bullcrap.) he has his finger on the pulse; he's the only one i trust. of course, i'm interested in the ipad _regardless_ of the numbers it rings up, because it presents opportunities in a number of new arenas, so i think it will springboard a lot of creativity that the kindle was too crude to free up. current estimates of the kindle weigh in at about 3 million. i don't see them selling more in the next 5 months than they have sold up to this point in time. but i can see them selling a lot of units nonetheless. and i can definitely say that i absolutely love the t.v. commercials they're running. one of 'em has a tune that knocks my socks off every time. i love it. it makes me feel _joy_. i replay it over and over.
in the early innings of ebook reader development.
oh please. we've had worthwhile "e-book readers" for a decade, in the realm of both hardware and software. so these are hardly "early innings". that was long ago. and the development of a mobile computer has been a widespread vision ever since the early days of star trek. yes, things _will_ move a lot faster now, thanks to apple showing the world the direction in which it should move. and we'll be amazed by how far we go in the next 5 years. but let's not pretend we couldn't have taken these steps 5 years earlier, if the hardware businesses didn't have a policy of rolling out innovation as _slowly_ as they can, and soak up as much profit as possible from each step... previous tablets were crude, now that we've seen apple do them _correctly_. but if those crude tablets would've cost $500, instead of $1500, people woulda bought 'em, and the world could have started moving forward earlier. but those hardware guys are greedy greedy greedy boys...
I'm wondering why we don't see them more often. . . ?
it's purely a coincidence thing. i noticed i didn't see many iphones until their number got to about 5 million or so. and it was only when it got up to 15 million that i started seeing them on a "regular" basis... but kindles _are_ out there... my girlfriend belongs to a women's philanthropic education organization, and there are three women in her chapter (of 45) who own a kindle. -bowerbird
I notice that no one has said they didn't see iPods back when there were only a million of those. ;-)
C'mon People, 1 Million units! How many citizens in the US. So how many in 1 Million citizens will have a iPad. So what are the chances of seeing a iPad. Do not forget many of those units where out bound! The iPad has still to be launched in Europe, ... Yes, the numbers are impressive. Here in Germany I have not seen one Kindle. I friend of mine had bought one when he was told he could get all the new publications for it. Well, guess what? He returned because he could not get any new book he was interested in. So much for the eBook market. The eBook market is in the "early innings". Same goes for the iPad. I am sure Apple will open up their reader to import other formats as demands rises, just as they did with iTunes. As far as statistics are concerned: A hunter shot at a rabbit and missed it 10 feet to the right. Shot again. This time 10 feet to the left. Well, statistically he killed the rabbit! regards Keith.
On Wed, 5 May 2010, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
C'mon People,
1 Million units! How many citizens in the US. So how many in 1 Million citizens will have a iPad. So what are the chances of seeing a iPad.
300 million people 1 million iPads 1/300 people have an iPad.
Do not forget many of those units where out bound!
Not counting those already out of the country.
The iPad has still to be launched in Europe, ...
Yes, the numbers are impressive.
Here in Germany I have not seen one Kindle.
I friend of mine had bought one when he was told he could get all the new publications for it. Well, guess what? He returned because he could not get any new book he was interested in.
So much for false representation, has happened with many items.
So much for the eBook market. The eBook market is in the "early innings". Same goes for the iPad.
If the predictions we have at the moment are correct, eBooks have entered the fourth inning, and, technically, have thus entered the middle innings. Remember, we are on a log curve here. . .not much has to happen in the early innings, but the next three could be the ones to tell how things will progress.
I am sure Apple will open up their reader to import other formats as demands rises, just as they did with iTunes.
You never really know about Apple, but I doubt they will even THINK about it as long as sales are so high, These thoughts will likely only come around when their numbers drop below some curve their MBA's have on their wall.
As far as statistics are concerned: A hunter shot at a rabbit and missed it 10 feet to the right. Shot again. This time 10 feet to the left. Well, statistically he killed the rabbit!
Yes, but your statistician left out the large Standard Deviation. Time to get a new statistician.
regards Keith.
Here in Germany I have not seen one Kindle.
Looking at the Amazon.de site it appears that Amazon is NOT having good luck getting German publishers to publish on Kindle. On Amazon.de they advertise 380,000 *English Language* Kindle books available to the German Market, as compared to a handful of German Books to the German Market. On Amazon.com they have 1000+ Kindle German Language books selling into the US Market -- most of these books being "classics."
Hi James, I completely do not under stand you at all. You take a quote out of context and use it for a completely different matter/topic!!! The discussion was about the people actually seeing machines in use! NOT the availbility of books in a particular country. On another point. I find your posts very hard to follow as you do not mention who you are quoting. regards Keith. Am 06.05.2010 um 03:09 schrieb James Adcock:
Here in Germany I have not seen one Kindle.
Looking at the Amazon.de site it appears that Amazon is NOT having good luck getting German publishers to publish on Kindle. On Amazon.de they advertise 380,000 *English Language* Kindle books available to the German Market, as compared to a handful of German Books to the German Market.
On Amazon.com they have 1000+ Kindle German Language books selling into the US Market -- most of these books being "classics."
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You take a quote out of context and use it for a completely different matter/topic!!!
Sorry, I thought it was obvious from context that one should not expect to see Kindles in Germany if Amazon is unable to source German books for German would-be purchasers to read on their Kindle.
previous tablets were crude, now that we've seen apple do them _correctly_.
Beg to differ that any tablet is done "correctly" if you pay for wifi/3g but aren't actually allowed to use the wifi/3g to do anything with books but buy from the company store. Kindle/Nook/iPad all suffer from restrictions on wireless transmission in an attempt by the hardware mfg to tie you to their company store. Netbooks, for example, do no suffer from this restriction. Toshiba Portege doesn't have the restriction, but at $1300 is a *bit* pricy for a reader, not to mention 5 lb vs. 1 lb for a DX.
Enough with you saying you can't "do anything with book but buy from the company store." I have already gone out of my way to demonstrate that people can get who knows how many tens of thousands of eBooks from other sources in the world than "buy from the company store." And these were FREE!!! Not just not from Apple's pile of eBooks, from also from others, not even for sale, so you were, and still are, wrong on both counts. "Buy" and "Company Store" You sound like nothing more than a shrill shill, given shillings for ranting and raving against Apple and the iPad. Please. . .be quiet until you have really done your homework. Stop, in heaven's name pretending that you did your homework when it is obvious to all concerned that you haven't. "My dog ate my homework, so I don't have it," would sound better. You make us all look bad when you talk like this. . . . Please stop. . . . On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jim Adcock wrote:
previous tablets were crude, now that we've seen apple do them _correctly_.
Beg to differ that any tablet is done "correctly" if you pay for wifi/3g but aren't actually allowed to use the wifi/3g to do anything with books but buy from the company store. Kindle/Nook/iPad all suffer from restrictions on wireless transmission in an attempt by the hardware mfg to tie you to their company store. Netbooks, for example, do no suffer from this restriction. Toshiba Portege doesn't have the restriction, but at $1300 is a *bit* pricy for a reader, not to mention 5 lb vs. 1 lb for a DX.
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You sound like nothing more than a shrill shill, given shillings for ranting and raving against Apple and the iPad.
previous tablets were crude, now that we've seen apple do them _correctly_.
Beg to differ that any tablet is done "correctly" if you pay for wifi/3g but aren't actually allowed to use the wifi/3g to do anything with books but buy from the company store. Kindle/Nook/iPad all suffer from restrictions on wireless transmission in an attempt by the hardware mfg to tie you to
company store. Netbooks, for example, do no suffer from this restriction. Toshiba Portege doesn't have the restriction, but at $1300 is a *bit*
Pardon, but I believe *I* expressed *My* opinions (repeated below) in a polite and measured way. I believe I have already acknowledged your "work-arounds" -- I just don't want to have to deal with "work-arounds." Also, I don't believe it is fair to represent my comments as coming from a "shill" given that I acknowledged the shortcomings of multiple machines. Also, I can assure you that I am NOT a "shill" and I would appreciate it if you publicly retracted that slander. If anything I appear to be the LEAST fanatic and most pragmatic about their choice of reading machine on this forum! If anyone else goes to the Apple Company Store, tries an iPad and it does what YOU want it to do: THEN BUY IT! I encourage EVERYBODY to go to an Apple Store, try it, and see what they think FOR THEMSELVES! It doesn't do what *I* want it to do, so *I* don't buy it -- I would THINK that wouldn't be very controversial position to take! Personally I am going to wait till 4.0 and see if its less restrictive then. HP Slate is rumored to be killed, in which case THAT certainly isn't a solution. (Presumably HP/Palm are now busy retooling to make a "Palm" version of the Slate/iPad, *sigh*) Que with its relationship with B&N also seems now to have picked up the wifi/3g "virus" of not allowing the owner of the machine to do what they like with their OWN wifi/3g connection. http://www.que.com/ What justification can you think of except trying to force sales through the company store to NOT allow the owner of a BrandX tablet to do the following: 1) Use wifi or 3g to transfer a book they own directly to/from their own computer? 2) Use wifi or 3g to transfer a book from any location they dang well like on the internet? 3) Use wifi or 3g to transfer a book not under DRM to a friend to share? Again, for comparison, laptops and netbooks have always had these capabilities. Maybe what we need is like cellphones the option of buying "unlocked" ebook readers at a higher price!? On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jim Adcock wrote: their pricy
for a reader, not to mention 5 lb vs. 1 lb for a DX.
On Wed, 5 May 2010, James Adcock wrote:
You sound like nothing more than a shrill shill, given shillings for ranting and raving against Apple and the iPad.
Pardon, but I believe *I* expressed *My* opinions (repeated below) in a polite and measured way.
You are not expressing "opinions" you are stating falsehoods. Stop it. I put them in quotes. . .please simply just state "in my opinion this is the equivalent of making people buy at a company store." However, it is NOT making people buy at a company store, and you know it, so please stop saying it is.
I believe I have already acknowledged your "work-arounds" -- I just don't want to have to deal with "work-arounds."
I'm not talking about workarounds, you are simply stating falsehoods. Stop it.
Also, I don't believe it is fair to represent my comments as coming from a "shill" given that I acknowledged the shortcomings of multiple machines.
Read more carefully. . .I did not say you WERE a shill. Don't misquote me to my face, or state falsehoods about iPad. Not here. . .not on our reputation. . .not on our dime.
Also, I can assure you that I am NOT a "shill" and I would appreciate it if you publicly retracted that slander.
Learn to read.
If anything I appear to be the LEAST fanatic and most pragmatic about their choice of reading machine on this forum!
Riiight!
If anyone else goes to the Apple Company Store, tries an iPad and it does what YOU want it to do: THEN BUY IT! I encourage EVERYBODY to go to an Apple Store, try it, and see what they think FOR THEMSELVES! It doesn't do what *I* want it to do, so *I* don't buy it -- I would THINK that wouldn't be very controversial position to take!
Then stop telling them they can only buy at the company store. Simply not true.
Personally I am going to wait till 4.0 and see if its less restrictive then.
Right. I'm not talking about whether they fulfill your desires or not, that is strictly up to you and them, as personal items. I'm talking you making and repeating statements that are false, easily proven false. Stop it, please. You are doing your best/worst to ruin our reputation. You could hardly do better if someone paid you to do that. Once again, I ask you to stop it. I would ask for retractions of your simple false statements, but I have no confidence you are serious about any of these, not from the first where you implied that the iPod Stanza is a good measure of what the iPad can do. You just never answer the direct replies. You are NOT having a conversation here. Please stop. Our CEO and I discussed this at length, both earlier when it first became obvious you were not to be taken seriously, and now when you insist on pretending none of it happened and it starts all over again. So, for the record, if you try to do this all over again you will find you are apt to lose your soapbox. In case that was not obvious, your messages will be moderate or they will be "moderated" for you. People here know just how much I hate doing that, it has had to be done only once before, if you want to be second please just keep it up a bit longer to insure there is no doubt you have utterly no concern for how you reflect on PG. So. . .once again I ask you to please stop with rhetoric and calm down to verified conclusions. Feel free to say you disagree with Apple, or anyone else, if you like, but make sure you state it as opinion at first and not just when you are challenged as to the facts. If/when I say you sound like a shill that is not the same as saying you ARE a shill, but YOU do not even give that leeway as state your opinions as if they were facts. Please stop doing that. No further comments below, to your list of personal desires. You should send your request to the manufacturers, magazines and others who might be able to give you some satisfaction. Enough. . .please. . . . I hope to be thanking you for this in the near future. Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg
HP Slate is rumored to be killed, in which case THAT certainly isn't a solution. (Presumably HP/Palm are now busy retooling to make a "Palm" version of the Slate/iPad, *sigh*)
Que with its relationship with B&N also seems now to have picked up the wifi/3g "virus" of not allowing the owner of the machine to do what they like with their OWN wifi/3g connection. http://www.que.com/
What justification can you think of except trying to force sales through the company store to NOT allow the owner of a BrandX tablet to do the following:
1) Use wifi or 3g to transfer a book they own directly to/from their own computer?
2) Use wifi or 3g to transfer a book from any location they dang well like on the internet?
3) Use wifi or 3g to transfer a book not under DRM to a friend to share?
Again, for comparison, laptops and netbooks have always had these capabilities. Maybe what we need is like cellphones the option of buying "unlocked" ebook readers at a higher price!?
On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jim Adcock wrote:
previous tablets were crude, now that we've seen apple do them _correctly_.
Beg to differ that any tablet is done "correctly" if you pay for wifi/3g but aren't actually allowed to use the wifi/3g to do anything with books but buy from the company store. Kindle/Nook/iPad all suffer from restrictions on wireless transmission in an attempt by the hardware mfg to tie you to their company store. Netbooks, for example, do no suffer from this restriction. Toshiba Portege doesn't have the restriction, but at $1300 is a *bit* pricy for a reader, not to mention 5 lb vs. 1 lb for a DX.
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On 05/05/10 20:42, James Adcock wrote:
Que with its relationship with B&N also seems now to have picked up the wifi/3g "virus" of not allowing the owner of the machine to do what they like with their OWN wifi/3g connection. http://www.que.com/
As a nook owner, I'd like to dispel the misinformation repeated several times by James in this thread. While B&N limits the 3G access to their site, there are no limits on the wifi connection. For example, I've browsed Amazon on my nook using the wifi connection at a B&N store. I don't have a problem with B&N or Amazon limiting the use of the 3G connection when the reader is using the SIM provided with the reader, since they're the ones paying for the connection. With the nook, it is possible to replace the B&N SIM with your own. I know that web enabled apps available for a rooted nook are able to use 3G when you've replaced the B&N SIM with your own SIM with a data plan. I believe the B&N browser added to the 1.3 firmware is only able to use wifi though.
Bruce, once again taking both sides, sorry, I must ask of nook's wifi connection will connect to most wifi hotspots or just those provided by B&N??? i.e. can you use your nook's wifi to download books at airports? Thanks!!! Michael On Thu, 6 May 2010, Bruce Albrecht wrote:
On 05/05/10 20:42, James Adcock wrote:
Que with its relationship with B&N also seems now to have picked up the wifi/3g "virus" of not allowing the owner of the machine to do what they like with their OWN wifi/3g connection. http://www.que.com/
As a nook owner, I'd like to dispel the misinformation repeated several times by James in this thread. While B&N limits the 3G access to their site, there are no limits on the wifi connection. For example, I've browsed Amazon on my nook using the wifi connection at a B&N store.
I don't have a problem with B&N or Amazon limiting the use of the 3G connection when the reader is using the SIM provided with the reader, since they're the ones paying for the connection. With the nook, it is possible to replace the B&N SIM with your own. I know that web enabled apps available for a rooted nook are able to use 3G when you've replaced the B&N SIM with your own SIM with a data plan. I believe the B&N browser added to the 1.3 firmware is only able to use wifi though. _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
The nook should be able to connect to any hotspot, although I have not tried it at any hotspot that requires you to connect to some website and enter some sort of password before you can connect to the rest of the internet. It works fine with my wifi at home. The browser was added in the 1.3 firmware release, which has been available for about 2 weeks, and it's marked as "beta" in the icon to start it. This release of the browser does not support downloads but I expect that a future release will support downloads. The browser available to rooted nooks supports downloads, but this is probably mostly installed by computer-savvy users. While I like my nook, I think B&N still needs a couple of firmware releases before this is a great reader. The browser needs to be able to download files. It would be nice if it were possible to access the nook file system via wireless. It needs a password lock. The current library app has search features for books purchased at B&N, but not for sideloaded content. It really needs to support tagging (collections). I think B&N should have a nook marketplace so that developers could officially write apps for the nook. On 05/06/10 10:17, Michael S. Hart wrote:
Bruce, once again taking both sides, sorry, I must ask of nook's wifi connection will connect to most wifi hotspots or just those provided by B&N???
i.e. can you use your nook's wifi to download books at airports?
Thanks!!!
Michael
On Thu, 6 May 2010, Bruce Albrecht wrote:
On 05/05/10 20:42, James Adcock wrote:
Que with its relationship with B&N also seems now to have picked up the wifi/3g "virus" of not allowing the owner of the machine to do what they like with their OWN wifi/3g connection. http://www.que.com/
As a nook owner, I'd like to dispel the misinformation repeated several times by James in this thread. While B&N limits the 3G access to their site, there are no limits on the wifi connection. For example, I've browsed Amazon on my nook using the wifi connection at a B&N store.
I don't have a problem with B&N or Amazon limiting the use of the 3G connection when the reader is using the SIM provided with the reader, since they're the ones paying for the connection. With the nook, it is possible to replace the B&N SIM with your own. I know that web enabled apps available for a rooted nook are able to use 3G when you've replaced the B&N SIM with your own SIM with a data plan. I believe the B&N browser added to the 1.3 firmware is only able to use wifi though. _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
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As a nook owner, I'd like to dispel the misinformation repeated several times by James in this thread. While B&N limits the 3G access to their site, there are no limits on the wifi connection. For example, I've browsed Amazon on my nook using the wifi connection at a B&N store.
Sorry, but I believe the thread of the conversation was talking about downloading BOOKS ie eBooks via wifi and/or 3G, not just "web browsing". Are you saying that the B&N web browser allows you to download books to your Nook from other than the B&N site? For example Kindle and Most desktop web browsers allow one to download a MOBI or ePub ebook via the web browser to one's computer or ebook reader and directly start reading that book. When I try this on the iPad I am told that I am not allowed to download that ebook. So, for example from a desktop computer or a Kindle I can directly download a book in MOBI or ePub format from the PG site to that computer and start reading, (just like most computers and web browswer allow one to download and read PDF files directly) but with an iPad I cannot. Here is a link to the B&N manuals for the Nook in case anyone wants to read for themselves what B&N says their product can do: http://images.barnesandnoble.com/pimages/nook/download/User_Guide_nook_v1_3. pdf
James Adcock wrote:
Personally I am going to wait till 4.0 and see if its less restrictive then.
The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history. When the first Mac came out, I and all my friends were impressed by what the machine could do. It had the revoloutionary Motorola 68000 CPU instead of the crappy Intel 8086 of the IBM PC. Everybody I knew was making expeditions to the Apple store to see the Mac, but in the end nobody bought it, because you needed a keyed screwdriver to even open the case. And then all chips were soldered on the main board. You could not upgrade memory. You could not put in a faster CPU. It had no expansion slots. Today I'm holding an iphone in my hands (courtesy of Apple). It is the most sexy device. It has a touchscreen that is a haptic joy to use, WiFI, 3G, GPS, BT, everything. History repeats itself: all my friends played with one. Nobody bought one. The iphone always makes me think of that pager-gimmick Commander Koenig (Martin Landau) carried on his belt in the Sci-Fi TV series "Space: 1999". He would unclip it from his belt and shout into it: "COMPUTER OPEN THAT DOOR!" and invariably the computer would *not* because it was owned by some alien entity. That's the iphone. A device capable of doing everything but *not* doing it, because some alien entity locked it down. Apple has and always had the most closed business model on earth. Apple is the most hypocritical company on earth. While they want you to think they are giving you freedom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8 what they really do is: they take all freedom from you. Let's learn from history. Apple is not going to change.
Again, for comparison, laptops and netbooks have always had these capabilities. Maybe what we need is like cellphones the option of buying "unlocked" ebook readers at a higher price!?
We don't *need* the option, we *have* the option. The Sony Reader has no WiFi but has opened every Epub I have thrown at it. It connects to any PC, even to Linux, and shows up as external disk drive. You can use any shell you want to move files onto it. I have a (Linux udev) script that syncs the ebooks to the Sony every time I plug it in. That's not quite as comfortable as WiFi but I gladly pay that price for the freedom to download what I want from everywhere I want. They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary comfort, deserve neither liberty nor comfort. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Hi Marcello, I do not understand your arguments. I never had problems with my Macs MacPlus, and MacSE all had enough memory, that is the adress space maxed out. When I needed more their was virtual memory. When did Apple say their machines are universal. They always say it will do this and that, and they deliver on that fact! Nowhere did Apple say will be able to get eBooks from all possible sources. Sure it would be nice. Ever looked into the iPad SDK? On the otherside, I have had devices that would not pair with my Macs because the vendors did not provide support. Then again others did. I sure support for other formats will come. I sure do not want my friends iPhones accessing my Macs!! ;-)) regards Keith. Am 06.05.2010 um 18:05 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
James Adcock wrote:
Personally I am going to wait till 4.0 and see if its less restrictive then.
The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.
When the first Mac came out, I and all my friends were impressed by what the machine could do. It had the revoloutionary Motorola 68000 CPU instead of the crappy Intel 8086 of the IBM PC.
Everybody I knew was making expeditions to the Apple store to see the Mac, but in the end nobody bought it, because you needed a keyed screwdriver to even open the case. And then all chips were soldered on the main board. You could not upgrade memory. You could not put in a faster CPU. It had no expansion slots.
Today I'm holding an iphone in my hands (courtesy of Apple). It is the most sexy device. It has a touchscreen that is a haptic joy to use, WiFI, 3G, GPS, BT, everything.
History repeats itself: all my friends played with one. Nobody bought one.
The iphone always makes me think of that pager-gimmick Commander Koenig (Martin Landau) carried on his belt in the Sci-Fi TV series "Space: 1999". He would unclip it from his belt and shout into it: "COMPUTER OPEN THAT DOOR!" and invariably the computer would *not* because it was owned by some alien entity.
That's the iphone.
A device capable of doing everything but *not* doing it, because some alien entity locked it down.
Apple has and always had the most closed business model on earth.
Apple is the most hypocritical company on earth. While they want you to think they are giving you freedom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8
what they really do is: they take all freedom from you.
Let's learn from history. Apple is not going to change.
Again, for comparison, laptops and netbooks have always had these capabilities. Maybe what we need is like cellphones the option of buying "unlocked" ebook readers at a higher price!?
We don't *need* the option, we *have* the option.
The Sony Reader has no WiFi but has opened every Epub I have thrown at it. It connects to any PC, even to Linux, and shows up as external disk drive. You can use any shell you want to move files onto it. I have a (Linux udev) script that syncs the ebooks to the Sony every time I plug it in. That's not quite as comfortable as WiFi but I gladly pay that price for the freedom to download what I want from everywhere I want.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary comfort, deserve neither liberty nor comfort.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello,
I do not understand your arguments. I never had problems with my Macs MacPlus, and MacSE all had enough memory, that is the adress space maxed out.
Get your facts right before posting. The first 68000 had 23 address pins (== 8M) and the first Mac had 128k of RAM. The 68000 could address 64 times the RAM you had in the Mac.
When I needed more their was virtual memory.
On a system with one floppy disk? Stop bullshitting.
When did Apple say their machines are universal.
Nobody ever said their machines were universal (except Turing). -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Hi Marcello, Was the MacPlus the first Mac? Was the MacSE a 68000? I did not say I had hard drives so no 128Kb limit! Who has the facts wrong? I have a Apple IIe with 1MB memory and a 640Kb drive! So do not tell be about BS and what can be done! It is a matter of money and know-how! regards Keith. Am 07.05.2010 um 15:00 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello, I do not understand your arguments. I never had problems with my Macs MacPlus, and MacSE all had enough memory, that is the adress space maxed out.
Get your facts right before posting.
The first 68000 had 23 address pins (== 8M) and the first Mac had 128k of RAM. The 68000 could address 64 times the RAM you had in the Mac.
When I needed more their was virtual memory.
On a system with one floppy disk? Stop bullshitting.
When did Apple say their machines are universal.
Nobody ever said their machines were universal (except Turing).
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello,
Was the MacPlus the first Mac?
No. I never said that. I said that when we went to see the first Mac we were all disgusted by its non-expandability.
Was the MacSE a 68000?
Yes. I still is.
I did not say I had hard drives so no 128Kb limit!
What has the hard drive to do with the RAM?
Who has the facts wrong?
You don't have wrong facts: You ho have no facts. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
On Sat, 8 May 2010, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Was the MacSE a 68000?
Yes. I still is.
The SE was a 68020 actually. It integrated the 68000 and the L1 I cache, MMU, FPU and a full 32 bit address bus. It also was available in faster clock speeds than the original 68000 and 68008 parts. http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68020/index.html -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/
On Sat, 8 May 2010, Greg Weeks wrote:
On Sat, 8 May 2010, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Was the MacSE a 68000?
Yes. I still is.
The SE was a 68020 actually. It integrated the 68000 and the L1 I cache, MMU, FPU and a full 32 bit address bus. It also was available in faster clock speeds than the original 68000 and 68008 parts.
Interesting, Wikipedia claims it was the 68000. I distinctly remember SE motherboards with 68020s on them. I wonder if they switched CPUs in the middle to get a cheaper and smaller SE. The SE/30 had software differences and needed a different System software. The 68020 looked like a 68000 with the support chips. The 68030 looked different to software. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/
Greg Weeks wrote:
On Sat, 8 May 2010, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Was the MacSE a 68000?
Yes. I still is.
The SE was a 68020 actually.
Then Apple got it wrong: http://support.apple.com/kb/SP191 -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Hi Marcello, read your own post! the fact was 128kb and VM! not RAM! regards Keith Am 08.05.2010 um 14:42 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello, Was the MacPlus the first Mac?
No. I never said that. I said that when we went to see the first Mac we were all disgusted by its non-expandability.
Was the MacSE a 68000?
Yes. I still is.
I did not say I had hard drives so no 128Kb limit!
What has the hard drive to do with the RAM?
Who has the facts wrong?
You don't have wrong facts: You ho have no facts.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Sat, May 08, 2010 at 07:43:04PM +0200, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello,
read your own post!
the fact was 128kb and VM! not RAM!
regards Keith
Dear lord, there's so much misinformation on this thread, it verges on being a parody! As a Mac user of many years, and having personally worked with all of the below but the 128 kB Mac, I can assure you that: a) The first Macintosh had 128 kB of RAM, an 8 MHz 68000 processor, most definitely did not have virtual memory, and wasn't upgradable without a soldering iron. b) The Mac Plus, which was introduced in 1986 had nice additions like a SCSI port, bigger ROMs and 1 MB of RAM which could be upgraded to 4 MB RAM using 30 pin SIMMs. The OS and memory map precluded the use of more than 4 MB RAM. It also used an 8 MHz 68000, and therefore was incapable of virtual memory. c) The SE from 1987 was very similar to the Plus in terms of specs. It also had an 8 MHz 68000, could take up to 4 MB of 30 pin SIMMs but had a proprietary expansion slot and ADB for keyboard and mouse. I think there were a couple of third party 68020 upgrade boards for the SE, but these definitely weren't common. Since they would have been Apple System 5 or 6 era, they would have predated Apple's introduction of virtual memory support in System 7 in 1991. d) The SE/30, which is possibly the machine Greg was thinking of, was released in 1989, had a 16 MHz 68030 with a built-in MMU, an FPU, and could (with upgraded ROMs and dense SIMMs) use up to 128 MB of RAM (8 MB with the original ROMs). There were a large number of expansion cards produced for it, including powerful (for the time) graphics cards; ethernet cards; and CPU & FPU upgrades. Apple's System 7 and 8, A/UX, NetBSD, OpenBSD and Linux all supported virtual memory on the SE/30, and due to its relative power and compact size, it was often used as a low end server in universities and the like. They were also popular in graphics design and publishing circles, and many regard them as one of Apple's nicest 68k Macs. Cheers, Brian.
On Sat, 8 May 2010, Brian Foley wrote:
c) The SE from 1987 was very similar to the Plus in terms of specs. It also had an 8 MHz 68000, could take up to 4 MB of 30 pin SIMMs but had a proprietary expansion slot and ADB for keyboard and mouse. I think there were a couple of third party 68020 upgrade boards for the SE, but these definitely weren't common. Since they would have been Apple System 5 or 6 era, they would have predated Apple's introduction of virtual memory support in System 7 in 1991.
It's possible they were an after market add on. I saw them when they were coming in for non-warrenty repair or upgrades. Adding more memory was the most common upgrade I remember.
d) The SE/30, which is possibly the machine Greg was thinking of, was released in 1989, had a 16 MHz 68030 with a built-in MMU, an FPU, and could (with upgraded ROMs and dense SIMMs) use up to 128 MB of RAM (8 MB with the original ROMs). There were a large number of expansion cards produced for it, including powerful (for the time) graphics cards; ethernet cards; and CPU & FPU upgrades.
Nope I remember the SE/30 as a diffferent beast, the SE/30 needed the OS upgrade to work at all. I don't think it actually needed system 7 and the MMU on, but it came with an update just to work. It was a fair bit faster too. Dang, that was a long time ago. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/
On Sat, May 08, 2010 at 03:48:29PM -0400, Greg Weeks wrote:
On Sat, 8 May 2010, Brian Foley wrote:
d) The SE/30, which is possibly the machine Greg was thinking of, was released in 1989, had a 16 MHz 68030 with a built-in MMU, an FPU, and could (with upgraded ROMs and dense SIMMs) use up to 128 MB of RAM (8 MB with the original ROMs). There were a large number of expansion cards produced for it, including powerful (for the time) graphics cards; ethernet cards; and CPU & FPU upgrades.
Nope I remember the SE/30 as a diffferent beast, the SE/30 needed the OS upgrade to work at all. I don't think it actually needed system 7 and the MMU on, but it came with an update just to work. It was a fair bit faster too. Dang, that was a long time ago.
At the risk of veering even further off topic (sorry!)... You needed System 7 and either Connectix's MODE32 software, or 32-bit clean ROMs taken from a machine like the IIsi or IIfx to use >14 MB RAM. System 6 and earlier only supported 8 MB RAM (24-bit addressing was required because of the way the memory manager used to store state in the top 8 bits of address pointers, and half the address space was used to map NuBus cards). There were products like Maxima for System 6 that let you stretch this 8 MB to 14 MB, but they had drawbacks. And while System 7 had an appallingly slow (and optional) VM implementation, at least it had one: System 6 had no VM subsystem at all. IIRC System 6.0.3 was the earliest one that supported the SE/30's hardware. http://www.lowendmac.com/daystar/pages/dsd_products/support/ts_mode32.html Fun times! I really need to replace the dodgy capacitors in my poor little SE/30 one of these days. At a desperate attempt at relevance, at least you could get reasonably current commercial OCR software for the Mac back then. Cheers, Brian.
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello,
read your own post!
the fact was 128kb and VM! not RAM!
All Macs up to the Mac SE included have an 68000 and no MMU. So they can't do VM. Period. (Unless you fall for Apple's marketing blubber and call 'VM' that ridiculous double-indirection-thru-pointer-in-software thingie they had that was 10x worse than Intel's segmented architecture.) But you (or somebody acting as you) said:
Just booted the SE up. Guess whast? 8 MB of installed RAM.
Boy! You should send them *yours* for the Apple Museum! *They* only managed to build SE's with a max. of 4 MB RAM. See the spec sheet: http://support.apple.com/kb/SP191 -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Heh Marcello, Just booted the SE up. Guess whast? 8 MB of installed RAM. regards Keith. Am 07.05.2010 um 15:00 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Marcello, I do not understand your arguments. I never had problems with my Macs MacPlus, and MacSE all had enough memory, that is the adress space maxed out.
Get your facts right before posting.
The first 68000 had 23 address pins (== 8M) and the first Mac had 128k of RAM. The 68000 could address 64 times the RAM you had in the Mac.
When I needed more their was virtual memory.
On a system with one floppy disk? Stop bullshitting.
When did Apple say their machines are universal.
Nobody ever said their machines were universal (except Turing).
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Heh Marcello,
Just booted the SE up. Guess whast? 8 MB of installed RAM.
That's cool! Go and edit the Wikipedia article that says a Mac SE has 4 Megs max. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_SE#Specifications -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
The Sony Reader has no WiFi but has opened every Epub I have thrown at it. It connects to any PC, even to Linux, and shows up as external disk drive. You can use any shell you want to move files onto it. I have a (Linux udev) script that syncs the ebooks to the Sony every time I plug it in. That's not quite as comfortable as WiFi but I gladly pay that price for the freedom to download what I want from everywhere I want.
Agreed this is about my current experience with Kindle. I also download some stuff via the Kindle's rudimentary web browser over 3G. But, I've connected and disconnected the Kindle literally a couple thousand times via USB now, and its getting really really old. That is why I'd like some kind of ebook reader that will allow me to transfer ebooks by wifi. I can do this using my netbook, in all of MOBI, ePUB, PDF "ebook" formats etc, its just that the keyboard really gets in the way of the ebook reading experience. With the current ebook reader apps one cannot even use the PgUp, PgDn buttons to change pages! You've got to use the mouse-pointer-pad thingee to click on the GUI up/down arrows. So what I want is an ebook reader with an "unlocked" interface to wifi so that we can do the kinds of things that we are permitted to do today by USB -- but actually using the wifi hardware capabilities built into the ebook reader already.
participants (10)
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Bowerbird＠aol.com -
Brian Foley -
Bruce Albrecht -
Greg Weeks -
James Adcock -
Jim Adcock
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Joshua Hutchinson -
Keith J. Schultz -
Marcello Perathoner -
Michael S. Hart