Re: it's that time of year again]
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Walter van Holst wrote:
David H. Rothman schreef:
And, yes, thanks to Pixel Qi and E Ink, some interesting possibilities are ahead to reduce hardware prices and sharpen the view. Exactly when will these good things happen? As I've said before, who's to say for sure precisely when? But we should be looking ahead to the time when e-book technology is going to get much better.
Not anywhere near the $50 (which won't buy you a good diner over here anymore), but I've seen Cool-ER's in mainstream electronics stores for under 300 Euro nowadays. When I got my iRex iLiad a few years ago, you could only get it at a specific bookstore chain, not mention at a somewhat different price point. To me this means that e-readers are becoming 'normal'.
I don't consider it "normal" when someone pays 300 euros for a dedicated eBook gizmo at the same time I pay 275 dollars for a full Windows netbook. Actually, given that this was "Black Friday" in the US., I saw a name brand of 10" netbook, 8 hour battery, 160G hard drive, wifi, ports, etc., for $229, the thing was even cheaper over the counter at the store than online. Go figure. Other places were offering similar netbooks for $99 if you signed up for stuff via two contracts, but I never recommend that, nor do I usually mention brand. I still don't understand why anyone would pay so much for "dedicated hardware" when the full featured computers are even less money. I could understand in certain very specific cases when a professional writer's preference for a certain keyboard might be involved, someone who spends months or years working on a novel or the like that should make millions, but I think we are talking a bit more mainstream here. I just can't see a world where people are walking about with dedicated readers the same way they walk around with iPods, and I also notice that iPods will be more and more full functioned as the generations progress. The iPod and iPhone will become full tilt computers long before the world will turn to dedicated ereaders, except for specific situations. mh
I actually had to go onto Google to get clarity on what a "Netbook" is, and it took me a long time... In the end I looked up the term by date! OK. I reckon I have now caught up with enough of what I had forgotten or missed. I'll bear Netbooks and their like in mind before I buy a Kindle or its like. Now lets get back to fundamentals. It is all a question of what function you are buying the thing for. Price is relevant only where you wonder whether the function justifies the outlay (in the context of what you can afford of course) and which of the rival products is best value for money. The latter two items should be common to all purchases, so lets ignore them for now. If you want to use it for a general purpose, portable, cheapish computer, fine. No problem. Netbook (assuming of course that it is adequate in comparison to full-function, larger equipment, but that too is a routine consideration, not relevant here. And of course, as Michael suggests, pace any relevant improvements in phones and other options etc.) But as soon as you begin to look at the special functions that epaper devices offer, then the question changes. Apart from questions concerning rival merits of rival products, and the acceptability of the crude attempts of various suppliers to bully you into buying their products for their purposes, if what you want is a *reader* with greatly extended offline battery life, effectively with independence of mains power, large capacity for reading material, and a format suitable for reading one-handed in bed, low light, or sunlight, then epaper seems to be extinguish rather than merely defeat rival media. No netbook or ftm blackberry seems to me suitable for bedtime or sickbed reading. For the last-named, I reckon I might manage something satisfactory with a projector and more powerful equipment, but apart from price and related considerations, that seems a little excessive for normal requirements (or resources). Some months ago BB intimidated me with dire descriptions of Kindle (or was it epaper in general?) slowness, contrast and resolution. Fortunately I was in no exceptional hurry to buy any device in particular, so that influenced me less than the marketing policies, pricing, media options and so on., and I have not yet bought anything, partly because I have too little time for reading anyway, least of all in bed, and I no longer commute. Since then I have however seen a couple of Kindle models and one of the rivals (Sony?). To be sure, both worked only in B&W, but that is fine for most reading. Both worked quite faste enough for reading (no more than a second to "page over", and quite adequate contrast. So that is OK. At a good price and function, I might well have bought one already. The smart money says that i'll have something like that in a year or less. What I really am interested in though, is spectacle displays. Any comments anyone, on: http://www.lumus-optical.com ? Even from BB? Cheers, Jon
I don't consider it "normal" when someone pays 300 euros for a dedicated eBook gizmo at the same time I pay 275 dollars for a full Windows netbook.
Actually, given that this was "Black Friday" in the US., I saw a name brand of 10" netbook, 8 hour battery, 160G hard drive, wifi, ports, etc., for $229, the thing was even cheaper over the counter at the store than online. Go figure.
Other places were offering similar netbooks for $99 if you signed up for stuff via two contracts, but I never recommend that, nor do I usually mention brand.
I still don't understand why anyone would pay so much for "dedicated hardware" when the full featured computers are even less money.
I could understand in certain very specific cases when a professional writer's preference for a certain keyboard might be involved, someone who spends months or years working on a novel or the like that should make millions, but I think we are talking a bit more mainstream here.
I just can't see a world where people are walking about with dedicated readers the same way they walk around with iPods, and I also notice that iPods will be more and more full functioned as the generations progress.
The iPod and iPhone will become full tilt computers long before the world will turn to dedicated ereaders, except for specific situations.
mh _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009, Jon Richfield wrote:
I actually had to go onto Google to get clarity on what a "Netbook" is, and it took me a long time... In the end I looked up the term by date! OK. I reckon I have now caught up with enough of what I had forgotten or missed. I'll bear Netbooks and their like in mind before I buy a Kindle or its like.
My own definition splits at 13" screens.
Now lets get back to fundamentals.
It is all a question of what function you are buying the thing for. Price is relevant only where you wonder whether the function justifies the outlay (in the context of what you can afford of course) and which of the rival products is best value for money. The latter two items should be common to all purchases, so lets ignore them for now.
Don't forget the need for a willingness to carry one more gizmo. There are millions of people who will carry an iPod nano because it is not any extra hassle, but won't carry a bigger one, iPhone or other larger device. eBook reading CAN be done on Nano sized screens, I mentioned an eBook reader software package in my iPod G3 clone. . . . Yes, I have read entire files on it. No, I'm not as comfortable with it as reading on my cellphones.
If you want to use it for a general purpose, portable, cheapish computer, fine. No problem. Netbook (assuming of course that it is adequate in comparison to full-function, larger equipment, but that too is a routine consideration, not relevant here. And of course, as Michael suggests, pace any relevant improvements in phones and other options etc.)
I have a feeling that netbooks are with us for the long run, but I know not all the manufacturers and retailers are sure. It has been tough to find all the models I want for holidays gifts.
But as soon as you begin to look at the special functions that epaper devices offer, then the question changes. Apart from questions concerning rival merits of rival products, and the acceptability of the crude attempts of various suppliers to bully you into buying their products for their purposes, if what you want is a *reader* with greatly extended offline battery life, effectively with independence of mains power, large capacity for reading material, and a format suitable for reading one-handed in bed, low light, or sunlight, then epaper seems to be extinguish rather than merely defeat rival media. No netbook or ftm blackberry seems to me suitable for bedtime or sickbed reading.
I don't have any trouble with a netbook in bed, I just have the power set to shut off after 5 minutes without input. You can just use what clickers they have as page turners. Personally, I'll bet they should be coming out with more clicker types, too.
For the last-named, I reckon I might manage something satisfactory with a projector and more powerful equipment, but apart from price and related considerations, that seems a little excessive for normal requirements (or resources).
Not to mention a little excessive for normal requirements for carry. I will carry my netbook all over the place, not as much so for those previous laptops. Of course, the cellphones are ubiquitout. . . .
Some months ago BB intimidated me with dire descriptions of Kindle (or was it epaper in general?) slowness, contrast and resolution. Fortunately I was in no exceptional hurry to buy any device in particular, so that influenced me less than the marketing policies, pricing, media options and so on., and I have not yet bought anything, partly because I have too little time for reading anyway, least of all in bed, and I no longer commute. Since then I have however seen a couple of Kindle models and one of the rivals (Sony?). To be sure, both worked only in B&W, but that is fine for most reading. Both worked quite faste enough for reading (no more than a second to "page over", and quite adequate contrast. So that is OK. At a good price and function, I might well have bought one already. The smart money says that i'll have something like that in a year or less.
Eventually they will come out with a screen that can work reflective AND backlit. . . .
What I really am interested in though, is spectacle displays. Any comments anyone, on: http://www.lumus-optical.com ? Even from BB?
Cheers,
Jon
I don't consider it "normal" when someone pays 300 euros for a dedicated eBook gizmo at the same time I pay 275 dollars for a full Windows netbook.
Actually, given that this was "Black Friday" in the US., I saw a name brand of 10" netbook, 8 hour battery, 160G hard drive, wifi, ports, etc., for $229, the thing was even cheaper over the counter at the store than online. Go figure.
Other places were offering similar netbooks for $99 if you signed up for stuff via two contracts, but I never recommend that, nor do I usually mention brand.
I still don't understand why anyone would pay so much for "dedicated hardware" when the full featured computers are even less money.
I could understand in certain very specific cases when a professional writer's preference for a certain keyboard might be involved, someone who spends months or years working on a novel or the like that should make millions, but I think we are talking a bit more mainstream here.
I just can't see a world where people are walking about with dedicated readers the same way they walk around with iPods, and I also notice that iPods will be more and more full functioned as the generations progress.
The iPod and iPhone will become full tilt computers long before the world will turn to dedicated ereaders, except for specific situations.
mh _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Eventually they will come out with a screen that can work reflective AND backlit. .
Exactly. And "eventually" could be very soon. See text and videos at http://www.teleread.org/2009/11/26/pixel-qi-well-start-mass-production-of-sc... That may well mean actual readers and netbooks in 2010 with the Pixel Qi screen; and supposedly Mary Lou Jepsen and friends plan to aim in the future for $100s HDTVs. I could care less if somehow Pixel Qi or an equivalent tech instead shows up three or four years later. Point is, it's coming for readers and other apps. I myself think that PixelQi's text-background contrast could be better in the reflective mode, but I suspect improvements will come in time. Of course, as I see it, the issue isn't so much netbooks vs. iPods vs. dedicated readers. In real life I go back and forth between an Acer netbook, a Touch, and dedicated readers, and more and more people will be doing the same (ideally with help from e-book standards, now that ePub has gained momentum). David David Rothman, TeleRead.org, 703-370-6540
Hi There, Am 28.11.2009 um 05:48 schrieb Michael S. Hart:
I just can't see a world where people are walking about with dedicated readers the same way they walk around with iPods, and I also notice that iPods will be more and more full functioned as the generations progress.
The iPod and iPhone will become full tilt computers long before the world will turn to dedicated ereaders, except for specific situations.
Just in case you have not noticed the iPhone is a full feldged computer: 1) it runs programms 2) it can be programmed 3) it communicates with other computers What can any other PC DO that a iPhone can not? (Of course inside of its capabilities. Do not forget that todays computers are yesterdays super-computers) I am sure you can remember those textprocessing-typwriters!! Not much use for them. Computers were cheaper more versatile back then, too. Still there was a market. My problem is when will there be affordable and wide-spread availibilty of e-books. Right, PG! Forgot to mention a good look and feel. What I mean is e-paper has be here for some 15 years. No devices on the market!? Just same old screen technology!! Same goes for cars and energy efficiency.
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi There,
Am 28.11.2009 um 05:48 schrieb Michael S. Hart:
I just can't see a world where people are walking about with dedicated readers the same way they walk around with iPods, and I also notice that iPods will be more and more full functioned as the generations progress.
The iPod and iPhone will become full tilt computers long before the world will turn to dedicated ereaders, except for specific situations.
Just in case you have not noticed the iPhone is a full feldged computer: 1) it runs programms 2) it can be programmed 3) it communicates with other computers
What can any other PC DO that a iPhone can not? (Of course inside of its capabilities. Do not forget that todays computers are yesterdays super-computers)
Yes, I remember when the Z-80's got down to 50 cents, you could buy an anything with them in it. . . . However, if speed is/was an issue. . . . I think iPhones fall into the same category. However, all the netbooks I am looking at are 1.6Ghz and really do all the things most other computers do without any big sacrifices as long as the keyboard and screen do what you like. . .since I have big hands I need a bigger keyboard than the very smallest, if I am going to type a lot of long things.
I am sure you can remember those textprocessing-typwriters!! Not much use for them. Computers were cheaper more versatile back then, too. Still there was a market.
Exactly the point I was making. . .those things never a more than niche market. Even when you could plug those into a computer as a printer, as I did.
My problem is when will there be affordable and wide-spread availibilty of e-books.
I saw a news story about an e-ink ebook reader that was only $137 on release, full featured, but I still say it is too much for the likes of me. However, iPods go for all sorts of much higher prices, so all they really got to do is come up with a gimmick. So far the gimmick is to make it do iPod stuff. . .hee hee!
Right, PG! Forgot to mention a good look and feel.
Too subjective. . .for this kind of discussion. You really need some serious market research on that, or steal a design like the iPod. . . .
What I mean is e-paper has be here for some 15 years. No devices on the market!?
Sorry, I missed the point. . .or just speculating???
Just same old screen technology!! Same goes for cars and energy efficiency.
E-ink is hardy the same old screen technology. When the speed it up it will become more like screen technologies we are used to, and add a three way dot for RGB to get color, or do the same sort of thing a lot of digital projectors do. . . . Do it all with millions of tiny mirrors. . . .
Michael S. Hart schreef:
300 Euro nowadays. When I got my iRex iLiad a few years ago, you could only get it at a specific bookstore chain, not mention at a somewhat different price point. To me this means that e-readers are becoming 'normal'.
I don't consider it "normal" when someone pays 300 euros for a dedicated eBook gizmo at the same time I pay 275 dollars for a full Windows netbook.
A full Windows netbook is in terms of eye strain nowhere near such a dedicated e-ink gizmo. Besides, loads of people spend orders of magnitude more on television screens, blueray players and other consumer electronics. Not to mention what is being spend on vacations etc. 300 Euro is not cheap yet, but perfectly within reach for a massive amount of consumers in the Western world. Basically you are going to hit the point that it becomes feasible to start producing them in larger quantities which in itself will cause a price drop.
I still don't understand why anyone would pay so much for "dedicated hardware" when the full featured computers are even less money.
Because the 'full featured computer' (which a netbook actually isn't) doesn't provide the functionality some people (myself included) require from an e-reader.
I just can't see a world where people are walking about with dedicated readers the same way they walk around with iPods, and I also notice that iPods will be more and more full functioned as the generations progress.
I don't expect them to become as ubiquitous as iPhones, but even that could be possible, especially when schools and universities start to use them. I would have loved to have my e-reader when I was at university, especially since it also doubles as a notepad.
The iPod and iPhone will become full tilt computers long before the world will turn to dedicated ereaders, except for specific situations.
They already are in a sense. Nonetheless you'll see none going around and using an iPhone for word processing. I use my iPhone for reading while on the subway/tram/bus, but for longer train trips I prefer my iLiad. Regards, Walter
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009, Walter van Holst wrote:
Michael S. Hart schreef:
300 Euro nowadays. When I got my iRex iLiad a few years ago, you could only get it at a specific bookstore chain, not mention at a somewhat different price point. To me this means that e-readers are becoming 'normal'.
I don't consider it "normal" when someone pays 300 euros for a dedicated eBook gizmo at the same time I pay 275 dollars for a full Windows netbook.
A full Windows netbook is in terms of eye strain nowhere near such a dedicated e-ink gizmo.
I'm reading this in white on black, no eyestrain.
Besides, loads of people spend orders of magnitude more on television screens, blueray players and other consumer electronics. Not to mention what is being spend on vacations etc.
Just because millions of people do it doesn't mean it is a good solution.
300 Euro is not cheap yet, but perfectly within reach for a massive amount of consumers in the Western world. Basically you are going to hit the point that it becomes feasible to start producing them in larger quantities which in itself will cause a price drop.
I still don't understand why anyone would pay so much for "dedicated hardware" when the full featured computers are even less money.
Because the 'full featured computer' (which a netbook actually isn't) doesn't provide the functionality some people (myself included) require from an e-reader.
I don't know about your netbooks, but around here you can get them with the DVD drive in the box with them, or separately, as you choose, which makes them full featured enough for me.
I just can't see a world where people are walking about with dedicated readers the same way they walk around with iPods, and I also notice that iPods will be more and more full functioned as the generations progress.
I don't expect them to become as ubiquitous as iPhones, but even that could be possible, especially when schools and universities start to use them. I would have loved to have my e-reader when I was at university, especially since it also doubles as a notepad.
I wonder what it would signify if people were reading as much as listening to music?
The iPod and iPhone will become full tilt computers long before the world will turn to dedicated ereaders, except for specific situations.
They already are in a sense. Nonetheless you'll see none going around and using an iPhone for word processing. I use my iPhone for reading while on the subway/tram/bus, but for longer train trips I prefer my iLiad.
Actually, I still have my Palm fold-up keyboards, and would LOVE new ones to come out for iPhones, iPods, etc., via USB connections. I have type a lot of articles, speeches, etc., on those keyboards, taken copious notes, in classes and conferences, etc., then just put it back in my pocket.
participants (5)
-
David H. Rothman -
Jon Richfield -
Keith J. Schultz -
Michael S. Hart -
Walter van Holst