(Fwd) FW: Copyright Infringement of Gone With the Wind
Hello Here's a letter (which I'm apparently breaking some US law by forwarding, but I'll take the risk) which I find disturbing. Seems that "Project Gutenberg established PGA to permit the illegal downloading of works". Of this I wasn't aware. As a big contributor to PGA it concerns me personally, as well as setting a very dangerous precedent. Does one country have the right to dictate to another what a website can contain when it falls within the law of the host country, and can they force some sort of restrictions on the downloading of material? Don. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: "Col Choat" <colc@gutenberg.net.au> To: "Don Lainson" <dlainson@sympatico.ca> Subject: FW: Copyright Infringement of Gone With the Wind Date sent: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:36:48 +1000 -----Original Message----- From: Gonzalez, Dalgis [mailto:dgonzalez@fkkslaw.com]On Behalf Of Selz, Thomas Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 2004 6:29 AM To: colc@gutenberg.net.au Cc: Paul Anderson Sr. (E-mail); Paul Anderson Jr. (E-mail); Thomas Hal Clarke (E-mail); Thomas Hal Clarke (E-mail 2); Selz, Thomas Subject: Copyright Infringement of Gone With the Wind October 25, 2004 Certified Mail- Return receipt Requested Project Gutenberg 405 West Elm Street Urbana, IL 61801 By e-mail (colc@gutenberg.net.au) Project Gutenberg of Australia Re: Copyright Infringement of Gone With the Wind To Whom It May Concern: We represent the Stephens Mitchell Trusts (the Trusts), the owner of the copyright to the book, Gone With The Wind (GWTW). There are copyright provisions around the world, including, without limitation, the United States Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §101 et. seq, which grant the Trusts, as copyright owner, the exclusive right to reproduce and distribute GWTW in the United States and elsewhere. It has come to our attention that Project Gutenbergs affiliate, Project Gutenberg of Australia (PGA), is publishing GWTW in electronic book form on its web site located at www.gutenberg.net.au (the Web Site). The Web Site states that PGA produces etexts in accordance with Australian law and that the books available on its site are in the public domain in Australia. While the Web Site warns that some of its ebooks may still be protected by copyright in the U.S. and suggests that U.S. users check U.S. copyright laws or visit Project Gutenbergs U.S. web site for its list of public domain works, there is nothing to prevent any U.S. user from simply downloading GWTW from the Web Site. Indeed, we were able to do so easily. It appears to us that Project Gutenberg established PGA to permit the illegal downloading of works that are still subject to copyright protection in the U.S. and elsewhere. Project Gutenbergs and PGAs willful, knowing and unauthorized distribution of GWTW to users in the U.S. and elsewhere where copyright protection remains available is a blatant violation of our clients rights under applicable statutes and common law. Please be advised that Project Gutenberg and PGA are subject to U.S. copyright law and to jurisdiction in the U.S. for their infringing activities through applicable jurisdiction statutes governing the commission of acts of infringement that either occur in the U.S. or have an effect in the U.S. On behalf of the Trusts, we hereby demand that Project Gutenberg and/or PGA confirm to us within five (5) days of receipt of this letter that you have removed GWTW from the Web Site entirely or that you have taken all necessary steps to prevent the downloading of GWTW in all places in which it is protected by copyright. Please be advised that if we have not received confirmation of your willingness to comply with the foregoing demands, we will take all appropriate steps to protect and enforce our clients rights. This demand is without prejudice to all of the Trusts rights and remedies in this matter, both legal and equitable, all of which are specifically and expressly reserved. Very truly yours, Thomas D. Selz cc:Paul H. Anderson, Sr., Esq. Paul Anderson, Jr., Esq. Thomas Hal Clarke, Jr., Esq. Dalgis E. Gonzalez FrankfurtKurnit Klein & Selz, PC 488 Madison Avenue New York, New York 10022 Tel: (212) 980-0120 x6735 Fax: (212) 593-9175 E-mail: dgonzalez@fkkslaw.com This e-mail and any attached files are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which this mail is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of this e-mail or the attached files by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply e- mail or collect call to (212) 980-0120 and delete this e-mail and attached files from your system. Thank you. ------- End of forwarded message ------- Don Lainson dlainson@sympatico.ca
I would reply something following these lines. 1. The copyright of the work has experid accourding to Australian law. 2. PG of A is not subject to US copyright law, as it has no activities in the US. It is the responsibility of US visitors to our website to comply with US law, similar to a US visitor visiting Australia, and buying a printed copy of GWTW and bringing it to the US, or buying the same by postal order. 2. Nothing in Australian law requires PG of A to prevent access to public domain materials for visitors appearantly from outside Australia. Furthermore, no reliable means exists to determine the geographical location of a visitor to our website. Even if we would be able to implement such a mechanism, it would be easy to circumvent, using proxy servers. 3. The downloading for personal use and study, as is facilitated by the PG of Oz website, may, in many jurisdictions, consititute fair use of the work by the visitor, and hence, the downloading is not necessarily illegal in third countries, even if the work is still under copyright. 4. Project Gutenberg of Australia is legally an entirely independent organisation from PG of US, and PG of US cannot be held liable for any actions of PG of A. It has not been set up for the express purpose of evading US law, but as an independent sister organisation to allow Australian volunteers to distribute works in the public domain in Au. Nobody of PG US has any hand in establishing or running PG of A. Hence, PG US is lacks the means comply with your request, and PG of A is fully within its rights to behave as it does. Any litigation will be fully without merit. We advise you that any such litigation will be accompanied by a campaign on our side to increase public awareness of the overly long duration of copyright, and the highly disputable way such extentions have been bought in the US. I think Michael has dealth with issues like these a few times, so may have a letter ready in the correct legalese... Jeroen Hellingman
I should add that PGUS has had nothing to do with the formation of any other PG effort, no monies that I am aware of have ever been exchanged, and that we couldn't stop any of these if we wanted to under my understanding of the current legal system. Michael
Cute letter. It's built upon a foundation of faulty suppositions, and imaginative stretches of logic, but it's cute. :) I'll be interested (if the powers that be decide to share) to see the official response (if any). Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 12:32 PM 10/26/2004, you wrote:
Hello
Here's a letter (which I'm apparently breaking some US law by forwarding, but I'll take the risk) which I find disturbing. Seems that "Project Gutenberg established PGA to permit the illegal downloading of works". Of this I wasn't aware. As a big contributor to PGA it concerns me personally, as well as setting a very dangerous precedent.
Does one country have the right to dictate to another what a website can contain when it falls within the law of the host country, and can they force some sort of restrictions on the downloading of material?
Don.
------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: "Col Choat" <colc@gutenberg.net.au> To: "Don Lainson" <dlainson@sympatico.ca> Subject: FW: Copyright Infringement of Gone With the Wind Date sent: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:36:48 +1000
-----Original Message----- From: Gonzalez, Dalgis [mailto:dgonzalez@fkkslaw.com]On Behalf Of Selz, Thomas Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 2004 6:29 AM To: colc@gutenberg.net.au Cc: Paul Anderson Sr. (E-mail); Paul Anderson Jr. (E-mail); Thomas Hal Clarke (E-mail); Thomas Hal Clarke (E-mail 2); Selz, Thomas Subject: Copyright Infringement of Gone With the Wind
October 25, 2004
Certified Mail- Return receipt Requested
Project Gutenberg 405 West Elm Street Urbana, IL 61801
By e-mail (colc@gutenberg.net.au)
Project Gutenberg of Australia
Re: Copyright Infringement of Gone With the Wind
To Whom It May Concern: We represent the Stephens Mitchell Trusts (the Trusts), the owner of the copyright to the book, Gone With The Wind (GWTW). There are copyright provisions around the world, including, without limitation, the United States Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §101 et. seq, which grant the Trusts, as copyright owner, the exclusive right to reproduce and distribute GWTW in the United States and elsewhere. It has come to our attention that Project Gutenbergs affiliate, Project Gutenberg of Australia (PGA), is publishing GWTW in electronic book form on its web site located at www.gutenberg.net.au (the Web Site). The Web Site states that PGA produces etexts in accordance with Australian law and that the books available on its site are in the public domain in Australia. While the Web Site warns that some of its ebooks may still be protected by copyright in the U.S. and suggests that U.S. users check U.S. copyright laws or visit Project Gutenbergs U.S. web site for its list of public domain works, there is nothing to prevent any U.S. user from simply downloading GWTW from the Web Site. Indeed, we were able to do so easily. It appears to us that Project Gutenberg established PGA to permit the illegal downloading of works that are still subject to copyright protection in the U.S. and elsewhere. Project Gutenbergs and PGAs willful, knowing and unauthorized distribution of GWTW to users in the U.S. and elsewhere where copyright protection remains available is a blatant violation of our clients rights under applicable statutes and common law. Please be advised that Project Gutenberg and PGA are subject to U.S. copyright law and to jurisdiction in the U.S. for their infringing activities through applicable jurisdiction statutes governing the commission of acts of infringement that either occur in the U.S. or have an effect in the U.S. On behalf of the Trusts, we hereby demand that Project Gutenberg and/or PGA confirm to us within five (5) days of receipt of this letter that you have removed GWTW from the Web Site entirely or that you have taken all necessary steps to prevent the downloading of GWTW in all places in which it is protected by copyright. Please be advised that if we have not received confirmation of your willingness to comply with the foregoing demands, we will take all appropriate steps to protect and enforce our clients rights. This demand is without prejudice to all of the Trusts rights and remedies in this matter, both legal and equitable, all of which are specifically and expressly reserved.
Very truly yours,
Thomas D. Selz
cc:Paul H. Anderson, Sr., Esq. Paul Anderson, Jr., Esq. Thomas Hal Clarke, Jr., Esq. Dalgis E. Gonzalez FrankfurtKurnit Klein & Selz, PC 488 Madison Avenue New York, New York 10022 Tel: (212) 980-0120 x6735 Fax: (212) 593-9175 E-mail: dgonzalez@fkkslaw.com
This e-mail and any attached files are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which this mail is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of this e-mail or the attached files by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply e- mail or collect call to (212) 980-0120 and delete this e-mail and attached files from your system. Thank you.
------- End of forwarded message -------
Don Lainson dlainson@sympatico.ca
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On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 01:32:06PM -0400, dlainson@sympatico.ca wrote:
Hello
Here's a letter (which I'm apparently breaking some US law by forwarding, but I'll take the risk) which I find disturbing. Seems that "Project Gutenberg established PGA to permit the illegal downloading of works". Of this I wasn't aware. As a big contributor to PGA it concerns me personally, as well as setting a very dangerous precedent.
Folks, it's safe to assume that the people who sent the letter (or other folks who might send other letters) could access the gutvol-d list or archives. So, in the interest of not helping them to think of new ways to harass us, I won't send a lot of detail on this particular case, or the ones like it. Suffice to say that, as others have commented, these folks are incorrect in many things. The PG response to such threats is to tell them this (politely), and mention that we have done extensive legal research over the years (in consultation with numerous lawyers) to support our notions. If *they* know of laws or legal precedents to the contrary, we would be very happy to hear of them and will seek to comply, as we do with all other laws. We also offer to help them, by providing information about these laws in the copies of the eBook(s) in question that we distribute, and to help further by writing letters to infringers they can identify. In short, we point out the errors in their requests, assumptions, claims, etc. and put the ball back in their court. This has been an effective strategy over the years. But of course, it's effective mostly because we're right, and legal -- PG's diligence in copyright procedures gives us a strong moral & practical ground to stand on.
Does one country have the right to dictate to another what a website can contain when it falls within the law of the host country, and can they force some sort of restrictions on the downloading of material?
The short answer is, no. We are not aware of anything like this, and have looked extensively, and consulted with many legal experts. There are definitely some vague points and unknowns, and eventually there might be treaties etc. that address some of these issues. -- Greg Dr. Gregory B. Newby Chief Executive and Director Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation http://gutenberg.net A 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization with EIN 64-6221541 gbnewby@pglaf.org
On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 01:34:41AM -0700, Greg Newby wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 01:32:06PM -0400, dlainson@sympatico.ca wrote:
Hello
Here's a letter (which I'm apparently breaking some US law by forwarding, but I'll take the risk) which I find disturbing. Seems that "Project Gutenberg established PGA to permit the illegal downloading of works". Of this I wasn't aware. As a big contributor to PGA it concerns me personally, as well as setting a very dangerous precedent.
Folks, it's safe to assume that the people who sent the letter (or other folks who might send other letters) could access the gutvol-d list or archives. So, in the interest of not helping them to think of new ways to harass us, I won't send a lot of detail on this particular case, or the ones like it.
Saw this story on slashdot, as well as Michael's Part I of today's newsletter. So much for keeping this under our hats :-) One quick factoid: None of PG (of US) has received any contact from the Mitchell lawyers (not to Michael's house, despite the statements in the letter, not to our business office in Utah, nor to my house in Fairbanks, which is the corporate business address of record). So, it's a little premature to make any sort of response. In case you were wondering, one of the first things we do when we get such letters is confirm that the people involved are who they say they are, and have some sort of legal relationship to the texts. In this case, we only have one forwarded email, which could be fake or from parties without legal standing. Thus, it's premature to even feel confident that the letter/complaint is real, or that (if it is real) the people who sent it are legitimate. -- Greg PS: I probably won't have time to post to /. today [my day job is calling], but people can feel free to repost my comments or extracts. There aren't any secrets here, but I do urge a modicum of discretion since so few facts are known.
Suffice to say that, as others have commented, these folks are incorrect in many things. The PG response to such threats is to tell them this (politely), and mention that we have done extensive legal research over the years (in consultation with numerous lawyers) to support our notions. If *they* know of laws or legal precedents to the contrary, we would be very happy to hear of them and will seek to comply, as we do with all other laws.
We also offer to help them, by providing information about these laws in the copies of the eBook(s) in question that we distribute, and to help further by writing letters to infringers they can identify. In short, we point out the errors in their requests, assumptions, claims, etc. and put the ball back in their court.
This has been an effective strategy over the years. But of course, it's effective mostly because we're right, and legal -- PG's diligence in copyright procedures gives us a strong moral & practical ground to stand on.
Does one country have the right to dictate to another what a website can contain when it falls within the law of the host country, and can they force some sort of restrictions on the downloading of material?
The short answer is, no. We are not aware of anything like this, and have looked extensively, and consulted with many legal experts. There are definitely some vague points and unknowns, and eventually there might be treaties etc. that address some of these issues. -- Greg
Dr. Gregory B. Newby Chief Executive and Director Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation http://gutenberg.net A 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization with EIN 64-6221541 gbnewby@pglaf.org
participants (5)
-
Aaron Cannon -
dlainson＠sympatico.ca -
Greg Newby -
Jeroen Hellingman -
Michael Hart