john redmond said:
Ever the pugilist, BB!
i don't understand why some people believe that a desire to seek best practices implies some kind of "fighter" mentality. when i say "x gives better results than y," it's not a _fight_... it's a _discussion_, one in which i've invited you to take part, by preparing the stage through the act of taking a position... so if you believe that "y gives better results than x", say so! then we can summon up the arguments for both positions, discuss them so we understand them fully, and then go on to weigh them carefully, so we arrive at the right conclusion. sounds fairly civilized to me, if i do say so myself...
The view that I am trying to express is about offering more attractive versions of text, _regardless_ of how they are generated.
well, i'm not sure anyone here really cares much about that. i certainly haven't detected much of it in the past, and even now, i don't think that's really what is _upsetting_ to people. they're upset because someone profits off their volunteerism. but even if i'm wrong, and people really do want to offer up "more attractive versions" of the e-books, the next question -- the _very_ next question -- becomes "how do we do that?" i've looked at your system. i looked at it last december, and i looked again just now. i admire much of what you've done. it's just that i think there are other systems, including mine, which can give more benefits to end-users at less cost to p.g. and i believe that conclusion will be fairly obvious to everyone. so, you know, no fighting necessary... :+) -bowerbird
On Dec 16, 2010, at 5:00 AM, Bowerbird@aol.com wrote:
but even if i'm wrong, and people really do want to offer up "more attractive versions" of the e-books, the next question -- the _very_ next question -- becomes "how do we do that?"
Gutenberg could do that by adding to the list of file types volunteers can upload, one for HTML formated especially for MOBI conversion (for those who do not have converters); and one for MOBI (for those that do).
On 12/16/2010 05:21 PM, Linda M. Everhart wrote:
Gutenberg could do that by adding to the list of file types volunteers can upload, one for HTML formated especially for MOBI conversion (for those who do not have converters); and one for MOBI (for those that do).
There are good reasons not to allow that: 1. The WWers are already overworked and adding more formats for them to process will not improve matters. Every change we make to the process will have to decrease human workload. Posting more formats is clearly a step in the opposite direction. 2. Maintenance of the posted files must be easy. A closed format like the Kindle cannot be edited without tools. Again, WWers cannot be expected to learn every tool required to edit every format. Every change to the process will have to simplify the task of maintaining books, not further complicate it. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Since the WWers are already converting files to MOBI, wouldn't it be easier if they had ones that were ready? On Dec 16, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
On 12/16/2010 05:21 PM, Linda M. Everhart wrote:
Gutenberg could do that by adding to the list of file types volunteers can upload, one for HTML formated especially for MOBI conversion (for those who do not have converters); and one for MOBI (for those that do).
There are good reasons not to allow that:
1.
The WWers are already overworked and adding more formats for them to process will not improve matters.
Every change we make to the process will have to decrease human workload. Posting more formats is clearly a step in the opposite direction.
2.
Maintenance of the posted files must be easy. A closed format like the Kindle cannot be edited without tools. Again, WWers cannot be expected to learn every tool required to edit every format.
Every change to the process will have to simplify the task of maintaining books, not further complicate it.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
No. For two reasons: 1) Mobi is being created on the fly on the server, not by the WWers. 2) Mobi is not a human-editable format. So if a prerendered file is delivered, when changes come in, WWers would have to track down the original submitter and hope they still have the source files and proper toolchain to make the changes. R C On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Linda M. Everhart <codmolly@embarqmail.com
wrote:
Since the WWers are already converting files to MOBI, wouldn't it be easier if they had ones that were ready?
OK, no MOBI uploads. What about HTML delivered ready for MOBI conversion? On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Robert Cicconetti wrote:
No. For two reasons: 1) Mobi is being created on the fly on the server, not by the WWers. 2) Mobi is not a human-editable format. So if a prerendered file is delivered, when changes come in, WWers would have to track down the original submitter and hope they still have the source files and proper toolchain to make the changes.
R C
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Linda M. Everhart <codmolly@embarqmail.com
wrote: Since the WWers are already converting files to MOBI, wouldn't it be easier if they had ones that were ready?
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On 12/16/2010 07:17 PM, Linda M. Everhart wrote:
OK, no MOBI uploads. What about HTML delivered ready for MOBI conversion?
Still one file more to juggle. Furthermore we'd have to change the posting guidelines and the software that runs the site. Up to now we accepted only one HTML per ebook. We'd have to change that into accepting: HTML HTML for EPUB HTML for Mobi HTML for eReader-sized devices HTML for iPhone-sized devices HTML for WAP devices and if you find an error in the text, you'd still have to fix all those files manually. The solution is obvious: make one simple HTML that works on *all* devices. Forget fancy formatting and concentrate of the *words*. Those render fine on all devices. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:39 AM, Marcello Perathoner <marcello@perathoner.de> wrote:
The solution is obvious: make one simple HTML that works on *all* devices. Forget fancy formatting and concentrate of the *words*. Those render fine on all devices.
Why am I not surprised; your solution is to ignore the concerns of the people you're working with and have them do it your way. No compromise is necessary, because everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. -- Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero.
On 12/16/2010 09:16 PM, David Starner wrote:
Why am I not surprised; your solution is to ignore the concerns of the people you're working with and have them do it your way. No compromise is necessary, because everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
I have to weigh not only *your* concerns but also the concerns of the WWers and *my* concerns. We don't want to end at PG like you ended at DP: with a backlog of several thousand books stuck in the queue that are proofread but cannot be posted because your PPing takes so long. My concerns are to run a website that is among the top 3000 in the US and top 6000 in the world with few people and absolutely no money. I have to manage the complexity of the software and of the underlying work process. Managing complexity means I have to say no to most proposals. If I hadn't said no a thousand times in the past, the PG web site would no longer work nor be maintenable. I'm open to all proposals to simplify and streamline and opposed to all proposals to complicate and spaghettify. If you have a proposal that addresses your concerns without increasing the workload of other people, I'd like to hear it. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Marcello Perathoner <marcello@perathoner.de> wrote:
I have to weigh not only *your* concerns but also the concerns of the WWers and *my* concerns.
You're one person; The *your* there covers dozens of people. I'd be a lot happier if there wasn't so much weight on your concerns.
We don't want to end at PG like you ended at DP: with a backlog of several thousand books stuck in the queue that are proofread but cannot be posted because your PPing takes so long.
Then we can take our books elsewhere. There's a bunch of places willing to host books, and if PG isn't willing to put enough weight on the needs of the largest ebook transcribers on the net, then I'm sure someone else will.
Managing complexity means I have to say no to most proposals. If I hadn't said no a thousand times in the past, the PG web site would no longer work nor be maintenable.
It doesn't work; it comes up in German most of the time. The fact it neither comes up in English, nor uses the Accept-Language header correctly is a flaw that renders most of the other stuff pointless. It's probably connected to the reasons the most famous ebook distributor in the world is down near 6000th in the world, instead of being in the top 1000 websites. -- Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero.
David Starner <prosfilaes@gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Marcello Perathoner <marcello@perathoner.de> wrote:
I have to weigh not only *your* concerns but also the concerns of the WWers and *my* concerns.
You're one person; The *your* there covers dozens of people. I'd be a lot happier if there wasn't so much weight on your concerns.
I'm very happy that Marcello spends his time on this project. Thanks a million!
Then we can take our books elsewhere. There's a bunch of places willing to host books, and if PG isn't willing to put enough weight on the needs of the largest ebook transcribers on the net, then I'm sure someone else will.
Google is catching up. These days, their text version is very readable and that's even valid for fraktur books! BTW, there are not that many German books available from DP (even if there is a hard working and very experienced team). -- Karl Eichwalder
On 12/16/2010 11:45 PM, David Starner wrote:
You're one person; The *your* there covers dozens of people. I'd be a lot happier if there wasn't so much weight on your concerns.
The *my* covers the concerns of 200+ K users a day.
We don't want to end at PG like you ended at DP: with a backlog of several thousand books stuck in the queue that are proofread but cannot be posted because your PPing takes so long.
Then we can take our books elsewhere.
Before taking your books elsewhere you have to get them out of the PP queue. Good luck with that!
There's a bunch of places willing to host books, and if PG isn't willing to put enough weight on the needs of the largest ebook transcribers on the net, then I'm sure someone else will.
I suggest you do your own site. And I suggest you try to use the books that come out of DP for anything else besides viewing on a big desktop screen. You would be alerted to their many shortcomings then.
It doesn't work; it comes up in German most of the time.
If that happens, go here: http://www.gutenberg.org/error403 and send me a copy of the page along and tell me what langiage you are seeing.
It's probably connected to the reasons the most famous ebook distributor in the world is down near 6000th in the world, instead of being in the top 1000 websites.
It was ranked 20.000th when I started and there was no Amazon, Google books, manybooks, feedbooks, etc. then. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
Financial Mags are reporting end-of-year total 2010 eReader Sales: Kindle 8 Million iPad 7 Million Nook 2 Million maybe Samsung Galaxy Tablet 600,000 units globally Sony Reader ???
Hi Marcello, There are was to separate the The different versions in the HTML code, but it is not pretty and easier to edit, but workable. This kind of work is done daily by programs developing programs for different platforms and OS versions. One file serves all. Yes, to handle this kind of system would require a slight change in the workflow and the use of only a couple of tools whose syntax is easy enough to learn. I sympathize with your feelings. The question is if PG should develop a simple markup based on for example XHMTL to accommodate the growing interest in more appealing texts and formats. The bigger question is who is willing to spear-head the project and help retool the PG tool chain and make the move as easy as possible. At least there does seem to be an interest. regards Keith. Am 16.12.2010 um 19:39 schrieb Marcello Perathoner:
On 12/16/2010 07:17 PM, Linda M. Everhart wrote:
OK, no MOBI uploads. What about HTML delivered ready for MOBI conversion?
Still one file more to juggle.
Furthermore we'd have to change the posting guidelines and the software that runs the site. Up to now we accepted only one HTML per ebook. We'd have to change that into accepting:
HTML HTML for EPUB HTML for Mobi HTML for eReader-sized devices HTML for iPhone-sized devices HTML for WAP devices
and if you find an error in the text, you'd still have to fix all those files manually.
The solution is obvious: make one simple HTML that works on *all* devices. Forget fancy formatting and concentrate of the *words*. Those render fine on all devices.
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 08:14:47AM +0100, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
The question is if PG should develop a simple markup based on for example XHMTL to accommodate the growing interest in more appealing texts and formats.
The bigger question is who is willing to spear-head the project and help retool the PG tool chain and make the move as easy as possible.
At least there does seem to be an interest.
regards Keith.
I thought this was announced on gutvol-d, but maybe not or it it was missed. There is a major initiative going on (though a small crew is doing most of the work) to set up an ePub processing chain at DP and to PG (the whitewasher's tool chain). Here's some good info about it: http://www.pgdp.net/wiki/EPUB There are various threads on DP forums about it, too. As Marcello mentioned in another post, RST is the markup, and it seems to be good for lots of content (not a panacea). Ultimately, I expect we'll have a mixture of hand-generated ePubs and auto-converted, with varying HTML. While this won't be a single master source (something that I, too, have wished for), it will result in more capable formats for a wider variety of devices than our existing tool chain is amenable to. -- Greg
On 12/16/10 7:39 PM, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
The solution is obvious: make one simple HTML that works on *all* devices. Forget fancy formatting and concentrate of the *words*. Those render fine on all devices.
I always saw you as a proponent of TEI as a master format to generate all other formats from (an idea I still think is probably a good idea), what has changed? Regards, Walter
On 12/17/2010 08:41 AM, Walter van Holst wrote:
On 12/16/10 7:39 PM, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
The solution is obvious: make one simple HTML that works on *all* devices. Forget fancy formatting and concentrate of the *words*. Those render fine on all devices.
I always saw you as a proponent of TEI as a master format to generate all other formats from (an idea I still think is probably a good idea), what has changed?
You can still send in TEI if you want, and it is my recommended format for heavy lifting. We are working on an alternative (RST) which is easier to learn and easier to write. Bur RST lacks many features, so it is capable of doing simple books only. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
participants (10)
-
Bowerbird＠aol.com -
David Starner -
Greg Newby -
Jim Adcock -
Karl Eichwalder -
Keith J. Schultz -
Linda M. Everhart -
Marcello Perathoner -
Robert Cicconetti -
Walter van Holst