Jim Adcock wrote:

Cool. I would point out that it would be nice if PG created Ebook-reader-friendly "landing pads" for each of the books in a particular format -- ie MOBI and EPUB. The current "landing pad" pages for each book are virtually impossible to use with Ebook-readers, so it is not possible to create a "Magic Catalog" using a proper "landing pad" approach.

What is a "magic catalog"? You don't need landing pages, you can go directly to the epub/mobi.

If you had such proper "landing pads" then you could include links such as "How to Donate", and "About Us" etc. Also, if you want to encourage tools such as "Magic Catalog" then it would be cool to publish the PG catalogs in a format that can be easily and reliably parsed,

Try the RDF/XML catalog: http://www.gutenberg.org/feeds/catalog.rdf.bz2

including info on whether a particular book is illustrated or not (Many ebook users do not want the illustrated version since it takes too long over "mobile phone" links)

We have no information about the 'illustration' status of an ebook. Sometimes the producers include ornaments and drop caps as images, so we cannot claim 'illustrated' if we find images.

Also it would be cool if someone took on the issue of using netbooks as-if they are Ebook-readers, because that would be a way to support a "Generic" Ebook-reader that would be agnostic about where one gets one's books from -- including PG.

Huh? Please illustrate.

Manybooks.net has a E-book friendly version at:

mnybks.net

Which concept is already outdated. The new kid on the block is the "Open Publication Distribution System": http://code.google.com/p/openpub/wiki/OPDS which PG will eventually support. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org

What is a "magic catalog"?

A "Magic Catalog" is fancy pants marketing words for a simple HTML catalog which has been converted to EPUB or MOBI format in a way such that when one has the Magic Catalog in one's Kindle or other E-book reader you can read the catalog there "in native format" just like any other e-book, click on any book in the catalog, and the catalog automagically fires up the mechanizations which cause the Kindle or other E-book reader to automagically start downloading the E-book over Whispernet or Wi-Fi to the E-book reader. The only thing "magic" about it is the "holy cow!" reaction of seeing how easily this works after painfully fighting the PG website over the rudimentary web browsers found in Kindle and other E-book readers. One can have a Magic Catalog in one's Kindle, for example, be at the airport, and with one click get a new book for free to read on the airplane flight. Compared to literally a half-hour fighting the PG website and then it being catch-as-catch-can whether or not one can successfully download the book you want.

You don't need landing pages, you can go directly to the epub/mobi.

Yes one can do this and this is in fact how the Magic Catalogs work, but PG asks that one not do this kind of direct linking to a book, rather PG asks that one links to the standard "landing pads" at PG, such as: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/142 But that doesn't work for E-book readers and other small format devices because the standard PG page uses frames and includes too much information to be usable on small format devices. Mnybks.net in comparison demonstrates the kind of simple interface that actually works for small format devices. One would like a simpler landing pad than http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/142 but one that still retains the essentials, such as how to donate to PG, how to get to the home page of PG, etc.

Try the RDF/XML catalog:

http://www.gutenberg.org/feeds/catalog.rdf.bz2

Yes -- agreed this is a much better format to derive other catalogs from such as a "Magic Catalog"

We have no information about the 'illustration' status of an ebook. Sometimes the producers include ornaments and drop caps as images, so we cannot claim 'illustrated' if we find images.

Very Strange, then how does PG generate a page such as http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/22210 -- which includes both "illustrated" and "un-illustrated" versions of the same book? Again, E-book readers like the option of choosing getting texts illustrated or not illustrated. If I am downloading a book at an airport, the Whispernet connection is probably not fast enough to make getting the illustrated version worthwhile. But if at home with a direct hardwired connection to the internet, then an E-book user might want to get the illustrated version.

...

Also it would be cool if someone took on the issue of using netbooks as-if they are Ebook-readers, because that would be a way to support a "Generic" Ebook-reader that would be agnostic about where one gets one's books from -- including PG.

Huh? Please illustrate.

OK, let's say Santa brings me an netbook for Xmas. Besides the built-in HTML format reader aka "Internet Explorer" I can also easily install other HTML readers, such as Firefox. On the same netbook I can also install a variety of MOBI format readers including "Kindle for the PC", "Mobipocket Reader", "Stanza", etc. I can also install a variety of EPUB format readers including Adobe Digital Editions, Calibre, EPUBReader, etc. In general see: http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_software to see what-all is available for a netbook or other computers. Now much of this software is happy to read free books already on your computer, but also is often tied to one or more for-pay publishers such as B&N or Amazon or Sony where you can use the reader software to buy and download the for-pay book. People can and do disagree about which e-book reader looks prettiest, just like they disagree about which HTML format reader they like best. They also disagree about which for-pay ebook publishers they like best. One can obviously also install Adobe Reader and read PDF format. And Calibre and Stanza among other tools allow one to change file formats on free books. So there is a ton of options available here, and it could be cool if someone documented all the different ways one can read the various file options PG offers using a netbook -- which is after all just a small laptop, but personally I don't see people lugging a big laptop around in order to use it as an e-book reader.

The new kid on the block is the "Open Publication Distribution System":

http://code.google.com/p/openpub/wiki/OPDS

which PG will eventually support.

Yes this looks like it will be very cool once it is developed and if it is supported by more sites than just PG.

- if you have an online reader there's a much better alternative: http://code.google.com/p/openpub/wiki/OPDS

Some day, maybe, and until then?

If you have an epub catalog you qualify as Independent Search Site. Just include a link to the gutenberg main page in some prominent place.

I include such a link on the HTML version of the site, and I include an inactive link to the PG site in the Magic Catalog, because again, the reason I created a Magic Catalog is because again the PG site doesn't work from small e-book readers, so having an active link to the PG site wouldn't be helpful.

Reading helps understanding. It says 'with images' which is not the same as 'illustrated'.

OK, assuming one is willing to tolerate not having drop caps if one doesn't want illustrations, then "images" and "illustrations" becomes the same thing which again begs the same question how is PG able to tell if a book has images and/or illustrations in order to be able to generate a web page like the one in question?

Get a wiki account and just do it.

Maybe after this sticky tar pit known as "Xmas."

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Greg Newby <gbnewby@pglaf.org> wrote:

Does this seem like it should be easy? Or, do we need to customize for 1000 different devices (literally...according to our pals at wattpad.com).

The correct way is to just apply a stylesheet for mobile devices to your existing HTML page, and be done with it. You don't even have to edit the HTML to apply it to all of the sub-html pages you serve from that vhost if you wish. The main site appears to be running Apache/2, so that's doable. I'd even be willing to expose my Gutenberg mirror as the "mobile site" and make the necessary adjustments if you wanted to do that. Supporting per-device useragents is a dead-end right from the start; you'll always be playing a losing game of catch-up the whole way. Let me know and we can begin testing out some ideas.

I think we are talking about different things. I think your wrappers take HTML versions of books and make them available for phone devices? I think what the rest of us have been talking about is how to make E-PUB and MOBI not HTML versions of the books more easily available directly from the PG site to E-book readers, such as the Kindle, which have rudimentary HTML browsers. Now phone devices have rudimentary HTML browsers too, so they could also use a simpler HTML interface to the PG site, but I would think the E-book readers and perhaps phone devices too would prefer to read e-books in an E-book format such as E-PUB or MOBI rather than in HTML -- which is presumably why E-book readers use E-PUB or MOBI as their native formats and not HTML.

I threw something together this afternoon and you can see it in the screenshots below (taken from my BlackBerry Bold device with BBSAK from my Windows laptop)

http://code.gnu-designs.com/m.gutenberg.org/

It should probably be: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12345 ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Adcock" <jimad@msn.com> To: <gbnewby@pglaf.org>; "'Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion'" <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:08 PM Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread)

...

One obvious approach is something like this:

...

http://m.gutenberg.org/etext/12345

Sorry, I can't get this example location to work.

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If our page can work on a cellphone, should be workable on an ereader. mh On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Jim Adcock wrote:

...

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12345

OK, then I don't know what this is other than a time-wasting joke on all of us. I've already said many times that the standard PG "landing pads" don't work for E-book readers, which have rudimentary browsers. The standard PG landing pads use frames, include pictures, assume a very wide (in terms of pixels) device etc -- none of which works worth a dang on E-book readers. Again, take a look at mnybks.net if you want to see the kind of web page that is well suited to E-book readers and their rudimentary browsers.

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