Fw: Clearance question - Mein Kampf
Curiously the Fredonia edition of Mein Kampf, translated by James Murphy, is listed as "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S. ". This would seem to indicate no copyright in the US but perhaps copyright in EU. More grist for the mill. ----- Original Message ----- From: N Wolcott To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Clearance question - Mein Kampf Why is it that PG maintains the fiction that MK is still in copyright when Fredonia is publishing a PD version? Obviously they know something we don't or haven't bothered to find out. Fredonia books are printed and distriibuted in the US. Fredonia has 1770 PD books listed on Amazon.com and University Press of the Pacific (Honolulu) have 3407, many of these post 1923. Fredonia in fact lists the source they are copying in their books. I have not examined any Pacific Press books yet. It would seem that PG would not be treading in dangerous waters by following the lead of these publishers. I agree that the fact that numerous copies of MK survive on the Internet is no reason to assume PD status, but hard copy books in quantity in the US are another matter which should bear some study. I have yet to see a book by these publishers where research does not show a presumption of PD status Perhaps PG if not "pushing " the envelope, should at least crawl inside it. N Wolcott nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu
On 9/14/05, N Wolcott <nwolcott@dsdial.net> wrote:
Curiously the Fredonia edition of Mein Kampf, translated by James Murphy, is listed as "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S. ". This would seem to indicate no copyright in the US but perhaps copyright in EU. More grist for the mill.
I don't see any reason why Mein Kampf would be out of copyright in the US. It was under copyright in Germany in 1998, hence the URAA returned it to copyright in the US. There is no clear copyright owner, but that doesn't mean that no one owns the copyright. Given that there are many copies of this on the net, I don't see any particular reason why PG should push the envelope here.
On Wed, Sep 14, 2005 at 03:27:30PM -0500, David Starner wrote:
On 9/14/05, N Wolcott <nwolcott@dsdial.net> wrote:
Curiously the Fredonia edition of Mein Kampf, translated by James Murphy, is listed as "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S. ". This would seem to indicate no copyright in the US but perhaps copyright in EU. More grist for the mill.
I don't see any reason why Mein Kampf would be out of copyright in the US. It was under copyright in Germany in 1998, hence the URAA returned it to copyright in the US. There is no clear copyright owner, but that doesn't mean that no one owns the copyright. Given that there are many copies of this on the net, I don't see any particular reason why PG should push the envelope here.
Right. There's really no envelope to push: according to all the rules we use, this title is still under copyright protection in the US. Not being able to find the rights owner would be relevant under some of Title 17 Section 108 USC, but only applies for very limited distribution (like a library making a photocopy, not putting it on the Web). There might some changes to the US laws that will allow us to treat such copyrighted items as though they are public domain in some ways (i.e., unlimited redistribution), but today there are no such exceptions that we can apply to PG. When PG makes a "public domain" determination on an item, you can "take it to the bank." We don't add stuff to the PG collection just because it's available electronically, or because other folks are getting away with it. We're definitely interested in pushing the envelope, but in this case I don't much latitude. -- Greg
This discussion pops-up every once in a while... I would personally be in favour of having this mongrel work available on-line, but only for its historical significance. People should know what moved so many people in Germany to follow such a destructive policy and madness. I would be in favour of lifting bans and add it to the PG collection, if only to take away its 'forbidden fruits' status, and work as an attraction for neo-Nazi sites that continue to spread ignorance and hate. I may discuss this with my grandmother, who lived in hiding in German-occupied Netherlands for almost two years to learn what she thinks about this issue. She also contributed her story on video to Steven Spielberg's Holocaust survivors project - I hope these tapes will also once become available more openly: it now requires written permission from the person's interviewed to be able to see them, and hear the victims voices. The copyright issue is unclear. It probably is still in copyright in the US, but there will probably be nobody who has standing to sue for copyright infringment. In Germany, the state of Bavaria has confiscated the copyrights, but it has no legal power to confiscate copyrights outside its jurisdiction. Although I sometimes jokingly state that the copyright extention in 1995 was intended to keep this work in copyright, I don't believe this was more than a coincidence. In life+50 countries (and next year also India), it is now public domain, and can be republished. However, I would not want to have it as part of a rather small collection, as not to have it attract undue attention. Jeroen.
Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account) wrote:
The copyright issue is unclear. It probably is still in copyright in the US, but there will probably be nobody who has standing to sue for copyright infringment. In Germany, the state of Bavaria has confiscated the copyrights, but it has no legal power to confiscate copyrights outside its jurisdiction.
Many German lawyers argue that Bavaria had no right to confiscate the copyrights ... but this is immaterial. "Mein Kampf" was written in 1924 and Hitler died in 1945, so copyright has not expired in the US and in Europe. We may argue over who owns the copyright, but not over the fact that it still is copyrighted. This leaves it as a book for PG Australia. OTOH, being sued over copyright infringement of "Mein Kampf" will surely bring some media attention to PG :-) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org
On 15 Sep 2005, at 23:48, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
"Mein Kampf" was written in 1924 and Hitler died in 1945, so copyright has not expired in the US and in Europe. We may argue over who owns the copyright, but not over the fact that it still is copyrighted.
The Dutch Wikipedia claims that rights were transfered in the US and and the UK before 1939 to respectively Houghton Mifflin and Random House. http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/10/mein_royalties.php has a longer story. Assuming that is true, it is interesting to note that a US publisher claimed the book was in the public domain, because Hitler had published it as a stateless person, but a judge took pity on this stateless person and declared the book copyrighted after all.
This leaves it as a book for PG Australia.
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account) wrote:
The copyright issue is unclear. It probably is still in copyright in the US, but there will probably be nobody who has standing to sue for copyright infringment. In Germany, the state of Bavaria has confiscated the copyrights, but it has no legal power to confiscate copyrights outside its jurisdiction.
Many German lawyers argue that Bavaria had no right to confiscate the copyrights ... but this is immaterial.
"Mein Kampf" was written in 1924 and Hitler died in 1945, so copyright has not expired in the US and in Europe.
Actually, many countried in Europe are still "life +50" or so I am told, perhaps even half the countries in the world where this copyright would already have expired, and some are "life +60" which would make this one expire about now. mh
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account) wrote:
I don't believe this was more than a coincidence. In life+50 countries (and next year also India), it is now public domain, and can be republished. However, I would not want to have it as part of a rather small collection, as not to have it attract undue attention.
The text in question has been availible from PG Australia in an English translation for a while now, and I don't believe it has attracted undue attention. Andrew
participants (8)
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Andrew Sly -
Branko Collin -
David Starner -
Greg Newby -
Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account) -
Marcello Perathoner -
Michael Hart -
N Wolcott