Re: Print-on-demand and dead-tree copies of Gutenberg texts.
Thanks to everyone for their comments so far! I'm learning quite a bit as I go. As of October 2003, the US Commerce department reported that about three-fifths of households had a computer; a little over half had internet access. https://www.esa.doc.gov/Reports/NationOnlineBroadband04.htm So it's not as bad as I was led to believe. Still, Perhaps I should have stated my goals a little more clearly. I have no particular interest in making money or making a business out of this. I'd simply like to make the books available---through whatever means that may be---in dead-tree form. I suppose it's a terrible idea fo tie the actual Project to a commercial entity by developing a working relationship with them---I don't think an "Official Project Gutenberg Edition" is a good idea. lulu.com, as mentioned, has no setup fees, but their pricing is a mite stiff---$4.53 plus $0.02/page. Certainly better than buying stuff from most university presses, but not exactly bargain-basement. Lightning Source charges (based on some quick googling at http://com1.runboard.com/bthescribesmessageboard.fwritingarchives.t45%7Coffs... ), $0.90 plus $0.013 per page, but I don't know what kind of binding that requires, or what sort of setup fees they charge. Perhaps they'd waive them if DP put out some sort of print-ready version in addition to human-readable text. I'm thinking TeX->PDF here, as it's pretty much the stablest human-readable-yet-fully-marked-up format available. Thoughts? I suppose I should take a relatively short etext, mark it up and see how it looks. I concur that simply throwing plain text, or even decent HTML, at paper is a horrible idea. So, what I ask is---is there a way to prepare the etexts as, in addition to HTML, whatever format is print-ready for these machines? Since typesetting a ready copy is a simple matter of feeding it to a Xerox DocuTech or whatever the $100,000 piece of hardware the print shop uses is, how can we do the necessary preprocessing ourselves? What exactly does the "setup fee" include? Thanks to everyone again for being so helpful with this. --grendelkhan
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:22:58 -0400, grendelkhan <grendelkhan@gmail.com> wrote: | Thanks to everyone for their comments so far! I'm learning quite a bit as I go. | | As of October 2003, the US Commerce department reported that about | three-fifths of households had a computer; a little over half had | internet access. | | https://www.esa.doc.gov/Reports/NationOnlineBroadband04.htm | | So it's not as bad as I was led to believe. Still, | | Perhaps I should have stated my goals a little more clearly. I have no | particular interest in making money or making a business out of this. | I'd simply like to make the books available---through whatever means | that may be---in dead-tree form. I suppose it's a terrible idea fo tie | the actual Project to a commercial entity by developing a working | relationship with them---I don't think an "Official Project Gutenberg | Edition" is a good idea. | | lulu.com, as mentioned, has no setup fees, but their pricing is a mite | stiff---$4.53 plus $0.02/page. Certainly better than buying stuff from | most university presses, but not exactly bargain-basement. Lightning | Source charges (based on some quick googling at | http://com1.runboard.com/bthescribesmessageboard.fwritingarchives.t45%7Coffs... | ), $0.90 plus $0.013 per page, but I don't know what kind of binding | that requires, or what sort of setup fees they charge. Perhaps they'd | waive them if DP put out some sort of print-ready version in addition | to human-readable text. I'm thinking TeX->PDF here, as it's pretty | much the stablest human-readable-yet-fully-marked-up format available. | Thoughts? I suppose I should take a relatively short etext, mark it up | and see how it looks. | | I concur that simply throwing plain text, or even decent HTML, at | paper is a horrible idea. So, what I ask is---is there a way to | prepare the etexts as, in addition to HTML, whatever format is | print-ready for these machines? Since typesetting a ready copy is a | simple matter of feeding it to a Xerox DocuTech or whatever the | $100,000 piece of hardware the print shop uses is, how can we do the | necessary preprocessing ourselves? What exactly does the "setup fee" | include? Just a mention that all Europe uses A4 paper. Anything designed solely for American paper sizes will be useless to typesetters in Europe. -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day.
On 6/15/05, Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
Just a mention that all Europe uses A4 paper. Anything designed solely for American paper sizes will be useless to typesetters in Europe.
Why? With decent margins, you can print letter on A4 or vice versa. And we aren't really talking typesetters here; typesetters don't care why size paper it is, since they're going to rip it apart and re-set it anyway. We're talking about people who are dumping our preformed blob to paper.
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:39:26 -0500, David Starner <prosfilaes@gmail.com> wrote: | On 6/15/05, Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote: | > Just a mention that all Europe uses A4 paper. | > Anything designed solely for American paper sizes will be useless to | > typesetters in Europe. | | Why? With decent margins, you can print letter on A4 or vice versa. | And we aren't really talking typesetters here; typesetters don't care | why size paper it is, since they're going to rip it apart and re-set | it anyway. We're talking about people who are dumping our preformed | blob to paper. Please note the Subject of this thread: Print-on-demand and dead-tree copies of Gutenberg texts. IMO felling trees is a Bad Idea, especially when with a little thought fewer trees could be felled. -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day.
On 6/16/05, Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:39:26 -0500, David Starner <prosfilaes@gmail.com> wrote: | Why? With decent margins, you can print letter on A4 or vice versa. | And we aren't really talking typesetters here; typesetters don't care | why size paper it is, since they're going to rip it apart and re-set | it anyway. We're talking about people who are dumping our preformed | blob to paper.
Please note the Subject of this thread: Print-on-demand and dead-tree copies of Gutenberg texts.
I noted it. I don't see how it changes anything.
IMO felling trees is a Bad Idea, especially when with a little thought fewer trees could be felled.
Generous margins are always nice, and printing letter on A4 doesn't cause more trees to be cut down; it's the same amount of text, shaped differently.
Inconsistent use of SI units and international standard paper sizes remain today a primary cause for U.S. businesses failing to meet the expectations of customers worldwide.
And use of international standard paper sizes remains today a primary cause of international businesses failing to meet the expectations of American customers. It's cute how you point out that all the print-on-demand places are in America; perhaps that means that we should use American paper sizes, then?
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:23:53 -0500, David Starner <prosfilaes@gmail.com> wrote: | > Inconsistent use of SI units and international | > standard paper sizes remain today a primary | > cause for U.S. businesses failing to meet | > the expectations of customers worldwide. | | And use of international standard paper sizes remains today a primary | cause of international businesses failing to meet the expectations of | American customers. What is it about *international* which you do not understand. | It's cute how you point out that all the print-on-demand places are in | America; perhaps that means that we should use American paper sizes, | then? Now that is a strange attitude in Project Gutenberg which is named after a person who lived in Mainz, which is now part of Germany and was at the time part of Europe. http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/gutenberg.html Incidentally he died in 1468, and the Pilgrim fathers sailed from Plymouth, Devon, England, in the Mayflower on 16 September 1620, some 150 years after Gutenberg died. -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day.
If I'm not mistaken Lightspeed and some of the biggest POD publishers are UK based. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Fawthrop" <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> To: "David Starner" <prosfilaes@gmail.com>; "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Re: Print-on-demand and dead-tree copies of Gutenbergtexts.
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:23:53 -0500, David Starner <prosfilaes@gmail.com> wrote:
| > Inconsistent use of SI units and international | > standard paper sizes remain today a primary | > cause for U.S. businesses failing to meet | > the expectations of customers worldwide. | | And use of international standard paper sizes remains today a primary | cause of international businesses failing to meet the expectations of | American customers.
What is it about *international* which you do not understand.
| It's cute how you point out that all the print-on-demand places are in | America; perhaps that means that we should use American paper sizes, | then?
Now that is a strange attitude in Project Gutenberg which is named after a person who lived in Mainz, which is now part of Germany and was at the time part of Europe. http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/gutenberg.html Incidentally he died in 1468, and the Pilgrim fathers sailed from Plymouth, Devon, England, in the Mayflower on 16 September 1620, some 150 years after Gutenberg died.
-- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day.
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
On 6/15/05, Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
Just a mention that all Europe uses A4 paper. Anything designed solely for American paper sizes will be useless to typesetters in Europe.
I was planning on 6"x9", which I think is the standard trade paperback size. Except... hmm. http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/learn_book_info.aspx Cafe Press states that 4.18in x 6.88in is the standard 'Mass Market Paperback' size. Also 5in x 8in for 'Standard Paperback'. http://www.whitehallprinting.com/TrimSize.html Some random printing company lists 6x9 and 5.5x8.5 as 'Standard Trim Sizes'. http://www.powerhomebiz.com/vol93/selfpublishing2.htm Another random tutorial lists 6x9 and 5-3/8x8. http://www.josephzitt.com/books/smwb-howto.php#pod Says here that apparently the 6x9 format is standard, at least with Lightning Source. Ah, and Cafe Press offers printing for $7 plus $0.03 per page with no setup fees. So, probably not the cheapest option. Perhaps I'll prep something and approach Lightning Source asking what they need in the way of preparation supplies---that is, what can be done for them. Is 6x9 a standard paperback size in Europe? I suppose that's of less interest. I'll be measuring some of my paperbacks at home this evening once I get back from work. Maybe print and trim a few test pages or something. --grendelkhan
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:09:47 -0400, grendelkhan <grendelkhan@gmail.com> wrote: | On 6/15/05, Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote: | > Just a mention that all Europe uses A4 paper. | > Anything designed solely for American paper sizes will be useless to | > typesetters in Europe. | | I was planning on 6"x9", which I think is the standard trade paperback | size. Except... hmm. But absolutely nobody uses inches any more, at least where I live. I was using a GPS which gives some measurements in feet, last weekend and found that I could not envisage how long a foot was. Even though I spent *more* than half my life using those insane measurements, ft, ins, lb, gallons (not US), perch, pole, peck, and so on. | http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/learn_book_info.aspx San Leandro, California 94577 | Cafe Press states that 4.18in x 6.88in is the standard 'Mass Market | Paperback' size. Also 5in x 8in for 'Standard Paperback'. | | http://www.whitehallprinting.com/TrimSize.html | Naples, FL 34104 USA | Some random printing company lists 6x9 and 5.5x8.5 as 'Standard Trim Sizes'. | | http://www.powerhomebiz.com/vol93/selfpublishing2.htm Virginia, USA | Another random tutorial lists 6x9 and 5-3/8x8. | | http://www.josephzitt.com/books/smwb-howto.php#pod Berkeley, CA 94709 | Says here that apparently the 6x9 format is standard, at least with | Lightning Source. | | Ah, and Cafe Press offers printing for $7 plus $0.03 per page with no | setup fees. So, probably not the cheapest option. Perhaps I'll prep | something and approach Lightning Source asking what they need in the | way of preparation supplies---that is, what can be done for them. | | Is 6x9 a standard paperback size in Europe? No! A5 usually | I suppose that's of less | interest. I'll be measuring some of my ?American? | paperbacks at home this evening | once I get back from work. Maybe print and trim a few test pages or | something. Anything but A4 and A3 paper is *impossible*, for your ordinary person to get in Europe. The jobbing Printers use A0 sheets. Printing anything but A sizes produces waste trimmings :-( http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html
International standard paper sizes
Standard paper sizes like ISO A4 are widely used all over the world today. This text explains the ISO 216 paper size system and the ideas behind its design. Globalization starts with getting the details right. Inconsistent use of SI units and international standard paper sizes remain today a primary cause for U.S. businesses failing to meet the expectations of customers worldwide. <<< Basically fold/cut A0 in two and you get A1. *with No Waste* What I am suggesting is that the design should be A5 for the world, with an alternative for US use. -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day.
If you google "Print on Demand" or "pod publishing" you will find that there are several surveys which review all the POD publishers and list their costs, minimums, etc. These are not exactly up to date but will give you a good basis for comparison. Many charge you for making the cover and for a book jacket too. don't forget those if you are going hardback. Also be aware of limits on book size. Cafe has an unrealistically low limit which preludes illustrations. But other than Lulu and Cafe you are dealing with the vanity press market where you are paying up front for "marketing" and whatever else that entails. ----- Original Message ----- From: "grendelkhan" <grendelkhan@gmail.com> To: <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Re: Print-on-demand and dead-tree copies of Gutenbergtexts.
On 6/15/05, Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
Just a mention that all Europe uses A4 paper. Anything designed solely for American paper sizes will be useless to typesetters in Europe.
I was planning on 6"x9", which I think is the standard trade paperback size. Except... hmm.
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/learn_book_info.aspx
Cafe Press states that 4.18in x 6.88in is the standard 'Mass Market Paperback' size. Also 5in x 8in for 'Standard Paperback'.
http://www.whitehallprinting.com/TrimSize.html
Some random printing company lists 6x9 and 5.5x8.5 as 'Standard Trim Sizes'.
http://www.powerhomebiz.com/vol93/selfpublishing2.htm
Another random tutorial lists 6x9 and 5-3/8x8.
http://www.josephzitt.com/books/smwb-howto.php#pod
Says here that apparently the 6x9 format is standard, at least with Lightning Source.
Ah, and Cafe Press offers printing for $7 plus $0.03 per page with no setup fees. So, probably not the cheapest option. Perhaps I'll prep something and approach Lightning Source asking what they need in the way of preparation supplies---that is, what can be done for them.
Is 6x9 a standard paperback size in Europe? I suppose that's of less interest. I'll be measuring some of my paperbacks at home this evening once I get back from work. Maybe print and trim a few test pages or something.
--grendelkhan _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
The best way to see what is involved in publishing POD texts is to actually do that on Lulu. I have no interest financially one wayor another in Lulu, but they do offer a service: for the upfront per item charge of $4 and .02 per page (cheaper than xerox) they keep your book available on their hard drive in perpeptuity, or until they go out of business. This $4 charge is buried in the $500 up front charge by other POD publishers. Please note that Lulu is not doing the publishing, they are just providing a needed service between the producer of the book and Ingram, Lightspeed, and other POD sites which print thousands of texts per day. These biggies are not interested in answering your phone call, and their product is marketed through publishing channels for $20 to $30 per paperback copy, something Lulu provides for $6. Not that Lulu, as any small company in a niche market, has not had some problems. But these are largely faced up front on their message boards and addressed conscientiously by management. Taking a book through Lulu involves going through 6 steps that are the bare minimum for a publishing process. I encourage those who are interested in POD to actually get their feet wet and produce a book. Have you thought about cover art? Are you a professional illustrator? Can you afford an artist? And if as I found no one will buy a Lulu book even at their cost of $6, then even lowering the price to $1 would not produce any sales in this marketing oriented world. And do not forget there are massmarket publishers of pd books at $3 to $5 such as the Wordsworth Classics, you just do not see them in bookstores and must special order them. Also due to marketing processes they are not handled by book distributors but by newsvendors, which makes them even more difficult to obtain. And , as often the case in PG, the source of the 1800 version is not noted but is left to booksleuths to determine, it is not unusual that "sales" are low. Case in point: Journey to the Centre of the Earth, available on PG as a Journey to the Interior of the Earth, tr by Frederick A. Malleson, a fairly complete and literary Victorian translation, $3.95 special order at Barnes and Noble. ----- Original Message ----- From: "grendelkhan" <grendelkhan@gmail.com> To: <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 4:22 PM Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Print-on-demand and dead-tree copies of Gutenbergtexts.
Thanks to everyone for their comments so far! I'm learning quite a bit as I go.
As of October 2003, the US Commerce department reported that about three-fifths of households had a computer; a little over half had internet access.
https://www.esa.doc.gov/Reports/NationOnlineBroadband04.htm
So it's not as bad as I was led to believe. Still,
Perhaps I should have stated my goals a little more clearly. I have no particular interest in making money or making a business out of this. I'd simply like to make the books available---through whatever means that may be---in dead-tree form. I suppose it's a terrible idea fo tie the actual Project to a commercial entity by developing a working relationship with them---I don't think an "Official Project Gutenberg Edition" is a good idea.
lulu.com, as mentioned, has no setup fees, but their pricing is a mite stiff---$4.53 plus $0.02/page. Certainly better than buying stuff from most university presses, but not exactly bargain-basement. Lightning Source charges (based on some quick googling at
http://com1.runboard.com/bthescribesmessageboard.fwritingarchives.t45%7Coffs et=15
), $0.90 plus $0.013 per page, but I don't know what kind of binding that requires, or what sort of setup fees they charge. Perhaps they'd waive them if DP put out some sort of print-ready version in addition to human-readable text. I'm thinking TeX->PDF here, as it's pretty much the stablest human-readable-yet-fully-marked-up format available. Thoughts? I suppose I should take a relatively short etext, mark it up and see how it looks.
I concur that simply throwing plain text, or even decent HTML, at paper is a horrible idea. So, what I ask is---is there a way to prepare the etexts as, in addition to HTML, whatever format is print-ready for these machines? Since typesetting a ready copy is a simple matter of feeding it to a Xerox DocuTech or whatever the $100,000 piece of hardware the print shop uses is, how can we do the necessary preprocessing ourselves? What exactly does the "setup fee" include?
Thanks to everyone again for being so helpful with this.
--grendelkhan _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
participants (4)
-
Dave Fawthrop -
David Starner -
grendelkhan -
N Wolcott