Re: [Fwd: Re: !@!Re: PG Canada]
Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs and see if we can get others involved! Russell McOrmond wrote:
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote:
Yea that's the right list. There just is no archive of past discussions. However from what Wallace says that may be because there haven't been any. :-)
There are only two months that had any, with Wallace being who tried to raise the dead in August.
"Coming soon".
Great to know that this is already started, and Darryl won't be starting from scratch..
I'm wondering if we should host PG Canada on a US site, I'm sure that will upset the lawyers, especailly those involved with Gone With The Wind. Michael On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote:
Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs and see if we can get others involved!
Russell McOrmond wrote:
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote:
Yea that's the right list. There just is no archive of past discussions. However from what Wallace says that may be because there haven't been any. :-)
There are only two months that had any, with Wallace being who tried to raise the dead in August.
"Coming soon".
Great to know that this is already started, and Darryl won't be starting from scratch..
_______________________________________________ Project Gutenberg of Canada Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ List: pgcanada@lists.pglaf.org Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/
Can't do that! The DMCA notice and take down provisions would force the server to be shut down. Additionally, we as Canadians could quite legitimately be found to be breaking US copyright laws AND a Canadian court could easily agree that the US court has jurisdiction. If we keep everything Canadian from the ISP to the server to the individuals doing the work, and we follow Canadian law diligently, then a Canadian court would be a lot less likely to agree that any US laws would apply. If our courts agree that the US has no jurisdiction, then we are under no obligation to defend ourselves in US court. Lastly, we are not really into this to upset US lawyers. The purpose is to promote the Canadian public domain and fight to keep it. I'd be just as happy if the US were physically incapable of accessing the site. cheers, darryl Michael Hart wrote:
I'm wondering if we should host PG Canada on a US site, I'm sure that will upset the lawyers, especailly those involved with Gone With The Wind.
Michael
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote:
Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs and see if we can get others involved!
Russell McOrmond wrote:
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote:
Yea that's the right list. There just is no archive of past discussions. However from what Wallace says that may be because there haven't been any. :-)
There are only two months that had any, with Wallace being who tried to raise the dead in August.
"Coming soon".
Great to know that this is already started, and Darryl won't be starting from scratch..
_______________________________________________ Project Gutenberg of Canada Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ List: pgcanada@lists.pglaf.org Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/
_______________________________________________ Project Gutenberg of Canada Website: http://www.projectgutenberg.ca/ List: pgcanada@lists.pglaf.org Archives: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/pgcanada/
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote:
Lastly, we are not really into this to upset US lawyers. The purpose is to promote the Canadian public domain and fight to keep it. I'd be just as happy if the US were physically incapable of accessing the site.
This is important. This should not be about US laws at all, but the Canadian public domain and Canadian law. We have enough of our own misguided Canadian policy makers to worry about (topic for digital-copyright.ca , probably not here) than always worrying about foreign jurisdictions. Just as US citizens need to fix US law, it is Canadians that need to fix/protect Canadian law. We should host on a site that not only is in Canada, but is with a Canadian ISP that is clearly on-side with the project where the project is not "just a customer". Heritage Committee has recommended Canada adopt the same "claim and censor" regime that the US has. We need to ensure that Canadian law is followed, and that we have Canadian lawyers on-side with the project such that the ISP can simply ignore these SPAM messages claiming to be from copyright holders. For those who haven't seen the Heritage report: http://www.digital-copyright.ca/node/view/550 As both a creator and an ISP I would love to be able to file any received "notice and takedown" (claim and censor) messages with the Competition Bureau under "deceptive marketing" and see what happens. I wonder if it is also fraud to claim to be the copyright holder of something when you are not. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/> Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/life-of-hacker.html#code=law
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Michael Hart wrote:
I'm wondering if we should host PG Canada on a US site, I'm sure that will upset the lawyers, especailly those involved with Gone With The Wind.
I assume you mean that we shouldn't be doing so, and that this list is hosted in the US? I note that http://projectgutenberg.ca/ is hosted on Compu-SOLVE Internet Services out of Midland and Barrie Ontario. Is this a site that can host lists? Is the ISP there on-side with the project such that even if Canada gets a "claim and censor" regime that they will appropriately hand these notices off to PG Canada lawyers rather than acting on them? I also run an ISP out of Ottawa, and can host any mailing lists/sites/domains/etc that are needed. I may not have the bandwidth if the site gets huge, but that would be a type of success we can wish for and get funding for when the time comes. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/> Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/life-of-hacker.html#code=law
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Darryl Moore wrote:
Great, and here is a test of the list. Let's clear some of the cobwebs and see if we can get others involved!
Great that you have moved this. Quick introductions. I'm the host for the Digital Copyright Canada forum http://www.digital-copyright.ca/ . I'm also co-coordinator of http://www.goslingcommunity.org , and am helping to form The Forum on Privatisation and the Public Domain http://www.ramshorn.ca/PPD/ Darryl Moore got excited about the Project Gutenberg concept as a reply to an article "One Internet, Many Copyright Laws" and the problems with "Gone With the Wind" http://www.digital-copyright.ca/discuss/3986 This lead Darryl, Wallace and myself to eventually find this forum. Looking at the archives it seems that Wallace already know.. A number of topics have come up in our 3-way Cc: list. One thing I would like to see is a FAQ page that details authorship issues (who has first copyright used for life+ calculations) and term for each type of work. I have been asking the question about copyright term in Canada for a while. One message recently was: Term of copyright for corporations (unnatural "persons") http://www.digital-copyright.ca/discuss/3899 Taking the Index of "The 2001 Annotated Copyright Act", by Normand Tamaro, and adding the links to the sections of the act I find. anonymous and pseudonymous works general 6.1 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-6.1 lesser of publication+50 , making+75 - reverts to section 6 if author becomes known... joint ownership 6.1 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-6.2 Same as the general case... cinematographic works 11.1 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-11.1 fixed 50 Crown ownership 12 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-12 fixed 50 foreign authors 9(2) http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-9 May allow term to be decided by foreign country? general 6 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-6 life+50 joint authorship 9(1) http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-9 life of last author+50 photographs 10 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-10 fixed 50 for corporations, refer to section 6 for natural persons. posthumous works 7 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-42/38965.html#section-7 before death is publish+50? This is not clear to read.. Other than for photographs I still don't know the term for corporations. Are they considered joint authorship of the directors of the corporation? If so, how to we determine this to appropriately return these works to the public domain? Note: I am an opponent of life+ terms. Not only does it make determining the term of copyright considerably harder as you need to follow the ownership trail back to the first holder of copyright, but it also suggests a morbid concept of society receiving benefit from the death of a creator. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/> Code is Law: how software code regulates the activities of citizens, and acts similar to law. How do we ensure transparency/accountability? http://www.flora.ca/russell/drafts/life-of-hacker.html#code=law
It's good to see a little activity on this mailing list. There was a burst of messages when this list was first created (you can see them at http://lists.pglaf.org/pipermail/pgcanada/) discussing possibilities of PG of Canada, but I have not heard anything recently. I know that if we all just wait to join in once "someone else has set it up" then possibly PG of Canada will never see the light of day. However, I havn't seen myself doing anything more useful than just typing up long messages of what "could be possible". And yes, Project Gutenberg is a totally separate entity. As a volunteer organization, PG in the United States simply could not deal with the legal complications that would be brought up in becoming a "multi-national". I believe the only legal relationship is that PG of Canada has been granted the right to use the "Project Gutenberg" trademark. Andrew
Looking through old emails, I came across this message from Russell which I can now respond to... On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Russell McOrmond wrote:
Other than for photographs I still don't know the term for corporations. Are they considered joint authorship of the directors of the corporation? If so, how to we determine this to appropriately return these works to the public domain?
In the book "Canadian Copyright Law, 3rd edition" by Lesley Ellen Harris, (which is, by the way, very pro-copyright in its tone), it says that a distinction must be made between the author and the owner of copyright when they are not the same "person". The duration of copyright is still determined by the date of the author's death. Here's an excerpt: Note that even where employers own copyright in their employees' creations, the employees are still the authors of these creations. This is important with respect to the duration of copyright protection, and also with respect to moral rights. So I take it that, even though a corporation may own copyright in a work, as it was made in the course of employment, or was aquired by other means, the expiration of copyright is still tied to the author's life. That makes me wonder then, that in a work published by and copyrighted by a corporation, if an author is not credited, and cannot be determined, could I look to acertain a copyright term on the basis of annonymous authorship? Andrew
Not sure who this could help, but found this while surfing for grants. http://www.fedgrants.gov/Applicants/NEH/OPUB/OPO/NEH-GRANTS-111604-008/Grant... Supposedly the deadline for this year has already passed, but who knows, maybe this could help PG Canada if there was one listed with thier version of www.fedgrants.gov. Naomi
participants (5)
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Andrew Sly -
Darryl Moore -
Michael Hart -
naomi walker -
Russell McOrmond