October 2004 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

re: [gutvol-d] Posting TEI
by Joshua Hutchinson 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

----- Original Message ----- From: Bowerbird(a)aol.com > > marcello said: > > A TEI text is basically a text file. > > right. if you could tell josh this, i'd appreciate it. > Text file and PLAIN text file are two different things. XML/HTML/XHTML/TEI/TEI-Lite/ZML ... those are all text files. None of them are PLAIN text files, which is what you always seem to advocate. ZML (Zero Markup Language) is ... wait for it ... a MARKUP LANGUAGE. That means it is just like XML/HTML, etc. Except that the rest are open standards with open source utilities available. ZML is you just wasting our time. Josh

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] re: coming to michael doorstep with hat in hand
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

the hacker said: > only in the sense that you've taken my words completely out of context, and twisted them to suit a discussion that wasn't even part of the original reply. you said -- as clearly as it can be said -- that your attitude is to leave the trailing edge behind. i only said that's not what michael's attitude is. and it is a historical fact that it has been michael -- and _not_ all the people with your attitude -- that has created the best library in cyberspace so far. if you don't give him -- and his attitude -- that credit, you will (like so many others) fail to learn from history. > I'm rapidly tiring of this, and its a waste of my time, > as well as the time of others. you're a quick study, david. it took me 6 months to figure that out. you've gotten the message in one week. :+) > If we're not moving forward, we're not moving this place hasn't been able to move forward on x.m.l. in 3 years. if you read the archives, you'll see all these threads are re-runs. > and that is never a wise thing to continue to expend effort upon. righto. that's why i'm leaving shortly. i just came back for one last harrah, to set the record straight one more time that "i told you so, and did it repeatedly..." -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Posting TEI
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

marcello said: > A TEI text is basically a text file. right. if you could tell josh this, i'd appreciate it. > So you can read it in any editor. "read" might not be the best word-choice there. "view" is more appropriate, i would think, since the markup will often obscure the content itself. > If you use emacs you can also > validate the TEI file against the DTD > without leaving the editor. that's a nice thing to be able to do. but the .tei might be _valid_ and still not do what it's supposed to do, accurately reflect the underlying structure and therefore result in a correct rendering... because i know you're all curious, with the z.m.l. authoring-tool, people will be able to see exactly what the viewer-program will display, in a window alongside their edit window. if it doesn't look right in the display window, you make changes in the edit window until it does. the rules are so simple that this is very easy to do. > A perfectly valid TEI file with no spelling errors > should be good enough to post. only if it's marked up _correctly_, though, right? > So we can have bith an alice30.pgtei and an alice30.jtei. that sounds like loads of fun... twice as much, at least! -bowerbird

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re: re: Re: [gutvol-d] jeroen's even-handed analysis
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

josh said: > ZML ... IS ... NOT ... PLAIN ... TEXT! of course it is. x.m.l. and h.t.m.l. and s.g.m.l. are too. it all reduces down to 1s and 0s. it's just that some formats are more or less readable in that state. -bowerbird

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] jeroen's even-handed analysis
by Joshua Hutchinson 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

----- Original Message ----- From: Bowerbird(a)aol.com > meanwhile, i will point out once again that nobody has challenged my > contention that i can represent all important book features using z.m.l. > plain text, when formatted wisely, is far more powerful than you know. Repeat after me... ZML ... IS ... NOT ... PLAIN ... TEXT!

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] jeroen's even-handed analysis
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

joshua said: > NONE of us (not even bowerbird) is expecting Joe Sixpack > to have the conversion tools loaded on his computer. i expect that joe sixpack won't _need_ a "conversion tool" because my viewer will give him more e-book functionality from z.m.l. plain-text than any other format/viewer gives him. and if it happens he _does_ need a conversion for a good reason, then i'll build that conversion routine into my program for him... so i _do_ expect that he'll have a conversion tool on his computer, but i _also_ expect that he'll never find any good reason to use it... (in the long run, anyway. but until my viewer is ported to the pda, and to web-servers, an .html converter will probably be necessary.) -bowerbird

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] jeroen's even-handed analysis
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

starner said: > The value of XML is in what it includes that plain text doesn't, > and a lot of that is lost in the plain text version. lost? or just not currently included? or even deliberately thrown out? consider carefully what your language implies, it might constrain you... meanwhile, i will point out once again that nobody has challenged my contention that i can represent all important book features using z.m.l. plain text, when formatted wisely, is far more powerful than you know. -bowerbird

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re: coming to michael doorstep with hat in hand
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

the hacker said: > Nor do I care. I only care for the ones who are > willing to make their lives, and the lives of others better. > For the users who refuse to learn, to adapt, and to grow, > they can stagnate and stay in their own nice warm puddle. fine. i have no problem with that. none whatsoever. take whatever attitude you want to, that's what i do. but michael hart's attitude -- which is the one that has made project gutenberg the most successful e-library in all cyberspace -- is to serve the trailing-edge user... and now _you_ -- like so many other e-book initiatives before, and i specifically include myself in that group -- find yourself coming here to use michael's e-text files for your own purpose. kind of ironic, isn't it? -bowerbird

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] jeroen's even-handed analysis
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

marcello said: > You should definitely learn to get your quotes right. > all your base are belong to us except _that_ doesn't correspond to what ingram said... which is precisely why i reworked the phrase. and whether you rework gibberish "correctly" or not seems to be rather beside the point, not? at any rate, have a nice day, marcello. :+) -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Re: aspects of a well-done e-book
by Joshua Hutchinson 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? By page break, I mean when you get to the bottom of the physical piece of paper. What you describe sounds more to me like what I usually refer to as a thought break ... a little white space or a graphic symbol between sections of text to indicate a scene transition or time passing, etc. Typically, in PG texts, those are marked with 5 asterisks (functionally equivalent to your # # #). Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Gutenberg9443(a)aol.com Speaking as a writer, I strongly disagree. I often use page breaks as a transition, and most other fiction writers do the same thing. (That's where I learned it.) To keep page breaks in a TXT version, simply insert # # # at the left margin where the page break belongs. That way TXT isn't confused or confusing, and the reader can see that as a page break. Anne

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