October 2004 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: [gutvol-d] Re: aspects of a well-done e-book
by Joshua Hutchinson 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Desrosiers" <hacker(a)gnu-designs.com> > > > In fact, both CSS style sheets are embedded within the main HTML > > file so that extra files are unnecessary. > > If you have a lot of texts, putting the stylesheet directly > inside the HTML unnecessarily bloats the content, and removes one of > the main benefits of CSS.. being able to separate content from > presentation. > > This means that if you have 1,500 works all formatted with an > internal stylesheet, and you want to change the fonts for one class > and add some borders around another, and add a selector for a new text > class... you have to modify 1,500 stylesheets, insteasd of one. Yes, > you could do all of that with a single perl one-liner, but why should > you? Well, in a perfect world, we could guarantee that the separate CSS file is accessible and life is good. Unfortunately, since we can't guarantee the CSS file is there, we decided to embed the CSS inside the HTML. It bloats it somewhat, but it is still smaller than the obligatory PG header information, so I don't feel TOO badly about it. And now we get a fully self-contained file. > > > In Mozilla-based browsers, you can switch between the style sheets > > very easily by clicking the icon in the lower left corner of the > > browser window. > > Or, more correctly, by going to View -> Use Style, because > there is no such selector in Mozilla or "Mozilla-based browsers" in > the lower left-hand corner. At least not on my Unix, Linux and Windows > versions of Mozilla (all current). > Now that I think about it, you may be right... In Firefox (which is what I have on this machine), there is no View -> Use Style menu option, but there is the icon in the bottom left corner. *shrug* > > But for those that WANT to know, clicking the Original Page Numbers > > style will have all the original page numbers appear in the margin. > > Why not also break up the pages with border-bottom on the > bottom of each respective div, so they look like _actual_ pages. > I have a big aversion to taking an electronic document and presenting it as "pages." First and foremost, it is ugly. Second, it is going to wreck havoc whenever the user wants to change font sizes, page sizes, etc. This method allows the "scholar" to have original page number references (which the scholars in the original discussion said was important) without tying the online layout to the limitations of the physical page layout. > > Now Internet Explorer doesn't seem to have a way to switch styles on > > the fly, which is a shame, but it just defaults to not showing the > > page numbers. > > Well, that is mostly because MSIE is not a browser, at least > not according to the standards body which defines how a web browser > should function, from the socket level all the way on up to the > presentation level. > > MSIE is a file manager, based on an ActiveX control that tries > to render HTML. It supports HTML3.2 fully, "most" of HTML4, "some" of > CSS1, hardly any CSS2, and CSS3... whats that? > > You are preaching to the choir here! The only thing I use IE for anymore is to check a new HTML document before posting it to make sure IE isn't mangling it TOO badly. JHutch

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Re: [gutvol-d] Re: aspects of a well-done e-book
by Joshua Hutchinson 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Desrosiers" <hacker(a)gnu-designs.com> > > With the proper use of CSS selectors, hidden and visible > properties, and other attributes and classes, you can make this very > small and tight. It just takes a bit of up-front planning to get it > all working right. Most people don't use CSS in any sort of optimized > format. It sounds like you're just the expert I've been looking for. Can CSS somehow specify a "general" part of the style and then have "special" sections that modify it when that style is selected. For instance, a general section that sets up a margin size, justifies the text ... Then a style for showing page numbers and a section for not showing page numbers. Right now, my CSS header includes the general section twice, once for each style. If I could just have it once, it would cut down on the size of the header quite a bit AND allow me to add some new features to the CSS header without feeling bad about how huge the header is getting. JOsh

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Re: [gutvol-d] Re: jeroen's even-handed analysis
by Joshua Hutchinson 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

Most of use HTML as a shorthand for HTML with CSS (or XHTML, if you prefer). ----- Original Message ----- From: Skippi <skip(a)nextra.sk> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Re: jeroen's even-handed analysis Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:41:45 +0200 > > Hello Karl! > > Wednesday, October 20, 2004, 3:38:52 AM, you wrote: > > > HTML isn't the best choice if you are interested in printing. > > IMO: HTML isn't the best choice if you are interested in anything. > > This obsolete format should not be considered if even mentioned. Use > XHTML + CSS instead, if you are allergic to XML. With properly > written XHTML and customizable CSS user can do what ever he wishes > with the files and the things are still as they should be. > > -- > > Skippi mailto:skip@nextra.sk > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >

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Re: [gutvol-d] jeroen's even-handed analysis
by D. Starner 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

Steve Thomas writes: > Most users of PG don't go around grumbling about the lack of XML > or the ability to output as PDF. They're just stoked to be able > to find the text online. That's why they're users of PG. If they needed XML or PDF, they go elsewhere. And frankly, I've heard many complaints about how hard it is to process PG texts and how much information is lost. I've personally found it a pain to produce good printed versions of the PG etexts. I think it a bad idea to start saying that "Most users ... don't go around grumbling", because many of those who would grumble will go elsewhere, and many of those who do grumble don't do so where we can here. -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] Why Bowerbird is a kook
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

holden said: > Wow, a Windows version _and_ an OSX version. classic mac is also available, for people running that. > Any suggestions on how to get it running on Linux? i've announced that for release in 2005. you can make it happen faster by buying me a linux machine. or you can just wait for it... :+) > How about the source code? it's not available. even if it was, it's in realbasic. so you'd need to buy that program (for which source is not available) to compile it. you could also port it to some other language, i guess. but why not just rewrite it? the ideas are not all that complex. and i'm not that good of a programmer. in fact, i write spaghetti code. good spaghetti -- never crashes, always works. but hard to decipher... so rewriting it is what you'd end up doing anyway, i would guess... so grab a copy, see how it works, and start coding... -bowerbird

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re: Re: [gutvol-d] Why Bowerbird is a kook
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

mike said: > Email me off-list if you'd like a copy of this > rancid pudding without surrendering your soul/Yahoo ID. alright, mike! i haven't even released my app yet, and it's already being _bootlegged_! that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside... :+) thankyouthankyouthankyou... -bowerbird p.s. i'll answer the rest of mike's post next week (or next month), but this part was just too good to pass up... ;+)

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is your head spinning?
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

is your head spinning? do you feel like you're swimming through acronym soup? here's a little _overview_ to help you get your bearings, at least in regard to _my_ work, _my_ viewer-program, _my_ format, _my_ markup system, and _my_ philosophy. 1. the e-texts -- as they are now -- must be regularized. 2. i can write programs to do most of that automatically. 3. the results need to be checked for quality control, and 4. some missing information will need to be re-inserted. 5. once that is done, the files will be _finished_, in that 6. my viewer will present them as high-powered e-books. 7. users can push a button to create high-end .html files, 8. or save text as an .rtf file, or print out to paper or .pdf, 9. in a way that gives 'em customized high-quality output. 10. my program will do text-to-speech, and screenshots, 11. and let people explore the project gutenberg library, 12. and easily report errors they encounter in any e-text. 13. those error-correction reports will be automatically 14. routed to a system that presents all the material, so 15. a human only has to say "yes" to approve the mod, and 16. change-logs will be updated and a notice distributed. 17. this e-text standardization and ease of handling will 18. nurture a flowering of synergistic uses of the library 19. by an array of creative and imaginative programmers 20. that will engender a book-driven revolution in thought. 21. and everyone will live happily ever after. the end. -bowerbird

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re: e-books for blind people
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

tony, my "viewer" program has text-to-speech. right now i've just turned it on for the mac, because speech synthesis is so easy there... but if you are on windows, and you're willing to give me feedback on it, i'll do the extra work to make windows work too, if that's what you own, as the headers from your e-mail would indicate... accessibility is _so_ very important to society! while text-to-speech is _vital_ for blind people, i also think a lot of sighted people will come to appreciate it as well, so this is a very important arena to me, and i'd appreciate your help with it very much. think of it as your own private app! :+) for instance, i can program around that problem where accented letters are skipped, and any other glitches too, so the plain-text files, as they are, will be as useful to you as any daisy file would be. because at the rate books are being scanned these days, nobody is going to have enough time to mark 'em all up -- i'm not surprised the daisy people can't keep pace -- so we have to find a way to make plain-text shine... as you say, it's workable right now, in fact often it's the best choice available, but i know we can make it better... -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Re: aspects of a well-done e-book
by D. Starner 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

"David A. Desrosiers" writes: > With the proper use of CSS selectors, hidden and visible > properties, and other attributes and classes, you can make this very > small and tight. I don't care how it works internally; how does it look to the users? > It should always degrade properly to continue to work with the > lesser capabilities of older browsers or browsers that don't support > the full rich CSS styles. This includes PDAs, cellphones, WAP devices, > screen scrapers, syndicated feeds, text-based browsers, text-to-speech > devices, and so on. So this won't work for many users, in fact the group of users that would most likely want to turn off line numbers on poetry. I think that important to remember. > Why should you want to "change" the CSS? Maybe I'm missing > your goals here. Can you try to explain this a bit further, perhaps by > providing some examples you've done that solve/show these problems? Again, I'm not looking at it internally. So far, all I've seen with CSS forces you to change the HTML code to change things. How does this look to the end user? -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

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Re: [gutvol-d] Re: aspects of a well-done e-book
by D. Starner 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

Karl Eichwalder writes: > It is easy to solve this issue using different CSS stylesheets. I have three problems with using CSS. First, and most fundamental, if you want to turn page numbers and line numbers on and off, and offer a choice of 5 different background colors, you need 20 different CSS options. Another feature will at least double the number of files. Secondly, it doesn't work on many web browsers, and I don't think that lynx and friends have any intent of ever supporting CSS. Lastly, it's never struck me as particularly user-friendly. If you can point me to a place where it's actually used and it's easy to change without being a computer science major, I'd appreciate it. -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

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