May 2005 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear
by Joshua Hutchinson 17 May '05

17 May '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Noring" <jon(a)noring.name> > > Jon Ingram wrote: > > Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > > 1) Btw Josh, has any "formal" working group been put together to > continue with PGTEI development? Or is it mostly Marcello and you? > Is there a dedicated PGTEI mailing list or forum anywhere? > Formal only in the sense that I bug Marcello mercilessly with reports (though I've laid off him recently). In the meantime, anyone that *wants* in on things can message me backline. I've got lots of stuff up on a server that I can point you to for testing/comments. Quick-n-Dirty update: TEI -> Text: working on how we want to deal with unicode characters. Otherwise, pretty much ready for public comment. TEI -> HTML: little things keep showing up, ie, support for overline styles need to be added, the XML header causes IE to enter "quirks" mode which can create some strangeness in rendering, svg is converted to png instead of passing the SVG directly to the browser for rendering (this may need to stay this way because of non-universal SVG support in browsers). Almost ready to open a call for CSS contributions to create a PG standard style. I hope to have a few alternate styles available at launch, too. TEI -> PDF: this one has the most "weirdness" PDF tables are just a large pain in the patoot. They require special massaging that the other two formats don't need. SVG is again converted to PNG and inserted into the PDF instead of a vector based insert which would scale better (I think this is what is happening ... need to check with Marcello on this one). The overline style doesn't work here either. I'm holding off major movement on PGTEI until the new DP version rollout is done. Some of the minds I want to tap most are going to be busy dealing with new DP fun. > I've been perusing (catching up on) the various forums at DP's site > and it does not appear there's a forum which would be a good match for > PGTEI and other future-tech-development topics. I'd say Future Features for now. After the DP rollout, I may beg the powers-that-be for a new forum topic for TEI. Josh (aka JHutch on the DP Forums)

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no, the problem is
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 May '05

17 May '05

josh said: > the problem is no, the problem is that you are rabidly intolerant of anyone who disagrees with your basic premises, especially if they can muster arguments cogently, and you will stoop to character assassination and full-blown censorship and all types of ugly tactics to avoid having the clothes of your emperor exposed. _that's_ the problem. your self-concept is wrapped up in doing e-books, and you take criticism personally, and very badly, and turn with a vengeance on anyone who gives it. and here's a wrap-up of the arguments that i make: a. the x.m.l. approach is full of implementation holes. b. when those holes are filled, it'll be overly complex. c. the complexity will drive away scads of volunteers. d. it will also make library-maintenance a nightmare. e. x.s.l.t. conversions are largely vaporware at present. f. even after they move out of vapor, they'll be plagued. g. trailing-edge users will get nosed out in the process. h. resultant confusions will drive away more volunteers. i. few of the benefits x.m.l. promises will materialize. j. the benefits won't come close to justifying the costs. k. somebody will have to come in and pick up the pieces. l. much simpler methodologies will actually work better. m. the workflows of the past don't scale to the present. n. some volunteers have worked themselves to burn-out. o. that burn-out now makes them incapable of reflection. p. without reflective thought, the project is floundering. q. floundering is the worst thing that can happen _now_. r. google, toronto, and million-books make e-books fly. s. all the errors in the library need to be fixed right now. t. the energy and resources of new people is not nurtured. u. we can use the help of end-users in attaining our goals. v. we need to make all end-users feel a part of the project. w. people question the past without knowing their history. x. a trailing-edge focus is the reason for the success of p.g. y. the viewer-program is the most important puzzle-piece. z. rabid intolerance retards progress, and mean people suck. i'm often scapegoated as "the problem" here, but the truth is that before i came, and every time i go away -- whether it's by my own volition or as a consequence of being "moderated" -- this listserve largely withers into a mass of nothingness. in an attempt to "avoid the troll", other p.g. listserves were set up that excluded me or which i had no interest in joining, and those listserves have -- without exception -- faded away. one of the only things that unites people here is picking on me. (indeed, the only other one coming to mind is picking on pg2, and even that one didn't produce _nearly_ as much unanimity.) i say things that you don't want to hear. i say them because they are things that you _need_ to hear. i am your wake-up call, and you dearly want to keep sleeping. "moderating" me will not work, because it is of no consequence to me that you do not want to hear what i say. i say it anyway. so if your refusal to hear it persists, you will have to ban me. but even if you ban me, i will not be quiet. because the world needs to know that you people -- who should be "the experts" -- don't know what you're talking about, and they need to know that you cannot deliver on all your promises. so i will tell the world. i tried to straighten you out here, in the privacy of your own listserve, but if you won't hear my message here, i will make it public instead, so its amplification via the public makes it audible to you regardless... so you pick your poison, private or public, it makes no difference to me. indeed, it'll waste much less of my time to go the public route instead... you're not doing me any favor, at all, by "allowing" me to stay here. i'm doing you the favor by being here. i've got better things to do... -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 May '05

17 May '05

jon said: > We just tend to use the DP forums... > you're welcome to come and join us :). jon, meet joe gruber. joe, since you're a regular over at d.p., i assume you already know jon ingram. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Joshua Hutchinson 17 May '05

17 May '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph R. Gruber" <joseph.gruber(a)gmail.com> > > Why not create PG forums? > I second that. Forums are nice both for easier moderation and easier checking of old topics. If I forget where I put a message from a Listserve, it is a pain in the patoot to find that information again. Josh

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Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 10, Issue 28
by Lee Passey 17 May '05

17 May '05

On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Andrew Sly wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Lee Passey wrote: > > > One of the problems with marking the text with a class that > > describes the presentation (aside from the fact that it's not > > structural) is that it implies a presentation which may not > > actually be correct. Note that Andrew does not say that this text > > is to be right aligned, but "aligned to be close to the right > > margin." Consider the last example given (modified to be a generic > > block so as to not imply "paragraphness"): > > > > <div class="dateheader" >> HERCULES ROBINSON.<br/> >> S.J.P. KRUGER.<br/> >> S.J. DU TOIT.<br/> >> N.J. SMIT.</div> > > > > In this particular case, we don't want the text to be > > right-aligned, we want it to be left-aligned, but shifted > > significantly out towards the right margin. > > > > In the pirate community I have seen these types of blocks > > identified as being of type "headfoot", presumably because it is > > primarily used for headers and footers of correspondence. I also > > know that TEI has an element for this type of thing (although the > > precise name escapes me at the moment, and I'm far to lazy to go > > look it up); assuming that the element name is "signature", you > > could use a class name, for example, of "TEI_signature", indicating > > that if it were a TEI element it would be the "signature" element. > > > > More important than the actual class name used is the notion that > > it ought to be the same as everyone else uses, so that some > > uniformity of naming is achieved. Myself, I'd probably opt for > > "headfoot", not because it's the best or most descriptive, but > > simply because it seems to have some currency. > > > > Now a quick word about the use of the <p> element. > > > > Despite what many people seem to think, the <p> element is _not_ a > > generic block element, it is to be used to indicate paragraphs. > > Clearly the aforementioned signature block is not a paragraph, and > > should not be identified as one, particulaly as there already is in > > common use an element designed _to be_ a generic block element: > > <div>. > > > > Personally, when I encounter a class name like "dateheader" which > > is obviously intended to move text near the right margin but > > maintain left alignment, I change the CSS definition to remove the > > alignment attribute, and instead add the style "margin-left:65%". > > This moves the block well to the right-side of the viewport, but > > also scales well when the window is resized. > > > > I also like my paragraphs to be indented, so my default CSS > > includes "p { text-indent:3em }". Now if you combine these two > > styles, and make the aforementioned signature block a <p> element, > > you would get something like this (imagine the whole block being > > moved 2/3 of the way across the page: > > > > HERCULES ROBINSON. S.J.P. KRUGER. S.J. DU TOIT. N.J. SMIT. > > > > The answer to this problem is simple: if your English professor > > wouldn't call it a paragraph, use the <div> tag instead. > > First, a brief disclaimer. > > I would guess that at least 80% of the people who contribute texts > with html markup to PG do not agree with choices made the majority of > others who do so. > > So, rather than make some futile attemp to define a subset of "PG > HTML" it made sense to just recomend simplicity and markup that is > valid as per w3c standards. > > I've had to accept that despite some markup I disagree with by > others, endless conversations, such as can happen here on this list, > will do nothing to change it. Yes, but by the very nature of your original question, you have demonstrated that you are not one of those who have an irrational commitment to a particular syntax. You wanted to know if there was a better class name than "dateheader" for your particular usage. I quite liked Marcello's suggestion to make it TEI-like, which would be (using his example): <div class="TEI_opener"> Great Marlborough Street<br /> <div class="TEI_dateline">November 11, 1848</div> </div> <div class="TEI_salute">My dear Sir,</div> This may be a little more complex than you want to use, so you could just substitute "TEI_opener" for "dateheader" when it appears before the block, and "TEI_closer" when it appears after the block. For a list of correspondences between XHTML and TEI that I have been developing (it is clearly not complete) see http://www.passkeysoft.com/~lee/tei2xhtml.html. > ============== > > > Use of a <div> instead of a <p>: > > Your concerns make sense. However, I believe, the last time I > checked, that in xhtml 1.0 you are not allowed to have #PCData > directly within a div. That is, a div is intended to delimit a > section of the document, but its contents must still be in their own > block-level elements. A generic <p> still seems to be the obvious > choice in this scenario. This didn't seem right to me so I went out to W3C.org and checked out the XHTML 1.1 DTD. In fact, <div> can contain any %flow element, which includes just about everything -- including #PCDATA. You may have been confused by the changes to the <body> element which now can contain only %block elements. I stick to my original suggestion that <p> should only be used for paragraphs, and <div> should be used for any other generic block-level element for which some other element is not appropriate. > Right-aligning a list of names: > > Yes, you are very observant to see that for the list of names quoted > below, it is not a totally accurate realization to align its contents > to the right. However, I have not found a ideal way to handle a block > like this easily, and, with many other projects waiting, I would like > to get this done, without spending weeks messing around with markup > and styling (which is the amount of time it would take--and still end > up with a less-than-idealistic result). Have you tried not using the "text-align:right" attribute, and using the "margin-left:65%" attribute instead? I think you'll find it's exactly what you're looking for. > For comparison, I have another text which I have been trying to > prepare, very carefully, and precisely in regard to markup and > styling, which has been stalled for over a year now, and I just feel > bogged down whenever I approach it. I feel your pain :-). I'm nowhere near an expert on styling, so when I encounter a problem like this I try to mark up the text with as much structural precision as possible (using <div> and <span>) and then just hope that someone else will come along and figure out the presentation. > Thanks for listening, > Andrew

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Re: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Joshua Hutchinson 17 May '05

17 May '05

----- Original Message ----- From: "David Starner" <prosfilaes(a)gmail.com> > > I think it important to have a list where discussions beyond 1) and 2) > can be asked. We need to have a list where we can discuss the future > of Unicode in PG, and things like that. It can cause extended > arguments, but it can be checked politely, and those people who can't > take a hint that enough is enough can be blocked. But I would really > hate to limit the only place where indepth discussions on where PG is > going and should be going can be held. > I agree wholeheartedly with David. The topics under discussion have almost never been the problem. It is the person(s) involved in the discussions that has been the problem. Remove the problem, not the discussions. And we do need to have a wide range of topics. For instance, I'm working on TEI, which I think is of vital importance to the future of PG (some may disagree). Discussions of TEI lead naturally into discussions of Unicode, graphic image formats, CSS, and other markup formats. Josh

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Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection
by rvijay07 17 May '05

17 May '05

I believe that PG has started a trend. There is if I can say an explosion of sites with all different varieties of collections of ebooks/etexts. There is so much out there, is expected to exponentially grow and lead to information explosion (infact this is already happening). Discussions, opinions here are helpful in selecting the good ones and ignoring the rest. Vijay --- On Tue 05/17, Chuck MATTSEN < mattsen(a)arvig.net > wrote: From: Chuck MATTSEN [mailto: mattsen(a)arvig.net] To: rvijay07(a)myway.com, gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:30:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection On Tue, 17 May 2005 06:47:57 -0400 (EDT)<br>"rvijay07" <rvijay07(a)myway.com> typed:<br><br>> >From the site:<br>> It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive<br>> the widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit<br>> basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as<br>> long as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if<br>> JRBooksOnline.com were cited as the source for material originating<br>> at this site.<br>> <br>> http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ <br><br>A great site, I suppose, if one is looking for examples of Nazi/white<br>supremacist propaganda for study; otherwise, it's a big PASS.<br><br>-- <br>Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA<br>MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm<br>Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586<br>kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519<br> <br>Random Thought/Quote For This Message:<br> Respect must be earned, not commanded.<br> _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

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Another Collection
by rvijay07 17 May '05

17 May '05

>From the site: It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive the widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as long as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if JRBooksOnline.com were cited as the source for material originating at this site. http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

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Re: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Jonathan Ingram 17 May '05

17 May '05

--- David Starner <prosfilaes(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/16/05, N Wolcott <nwolcott(a)dsdial.net> wrote: > > Another tack would be to require all posts to be either a question about a > > volunteer work in progress or an answer to the question. > > > > Either or both of these might return the list to some of its previous > > utility. > > > > Some questions one might ask are 1)how long should it take to get > > copyrightclearance on my project? 2) Where can I find canned examples of > > css I can use in my book which has sidebars in it? and similar sort of > > stuff. We don't need to discuss the future of unicode, or the lack thereof. > > I think it important to have a list where discussions beyond 1) and 2) > can be asked. We need to have a list where we can discuss the future > of Unicode in PG, and things like that. It can cause extended > arguments, but it can be checked politely, and those people who can't > take a hint that enough is enough can be blocked. But I would really > hate to limit the only place where indepth discussions on where PG is > going and should be going can be held. I've seen very little productive discussion on this site in the time I've been signed up to it. In contrast, the DP forums are very active, and have seen a wide range of interesting (and in general polite) discussion on the future of DP material. Those of you who are not yet signed up to DP should come over and browse our archives. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Dear Jon and Bowerbird
by Melissa Er-Raqabi 17 May '05

17 May '05

Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list implies? There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which seems not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? Can you please be quiet, PLEASE?

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