October 2011 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: [gutvol-d] Talking about TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '11

30 Oct '11

i said: > maximize the number of viable machines! by the way, some web-browsers (notably, firefox) do not wrap the lines when they display a .txt file. whether they should, or not, is another question... but the reality is that some do not. (others _do_.) so if p.g. deleted their mid-paragraph linebreaks, those .txt files would become unwieldy in firefox... -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Talking about TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 30 Oct '11

30 Oct '11

andrew said: > I wonder what reasoning was used to > settle on the txt-less-than-80 format... i'd say the reasoning was perfectly obvious: maximize the number of viable machines! _can't_wrap_ + _can_wrap_ > _can_wrap_ by the way, here's an online unwrapper: > http://z-m-l.com/go/unwrap.pl this version has the requirement that a space in the first column of any line means the linebreak preceding that line was significant, and is not to be deleted. oh, and by the way, if you wanna wrap, counting characters is an archaic way... better to assign a "standard" font -- e.g., like times roman or helvetica -- and then chop lines by stringwidth... and you don't need to write a routine to do that... run out a .pdf, then save the text with the "export" command... -bowerbird

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Talking about TXT
by Greg M. Johnson 30 Oct '11

30 Oct '11

Here's an attempt to get at an objective truth behind the format wars, in order to make it easier for folks to make informed if their own subjective decisions. Library science peeps and/or computer anthropologists might already know something I don't, which would make me give up an axe I keep grinding. Suppose you were to take all of the reading devices that STILL exist today and are likely to ever exist in the future. This would include Kindle's, really old computer terminals in behind-the-times university CS departments, reasonable speculations about 200 years from now, AND, AND the software that everyone in the world has on their computer right NOW. Now take all the formats that ever existed, and give them a big veto for every time someone i) truly cannot see it, and ii) has an inconvenient time on the screen reading the thing (from eye nuisance to ability to enlarge for those with poor vision). Microsoft Word 1995 format (if there were such a thing) is probably out. WordPerfect for 3.1 Windows format is probably out. And so on. Maybe you can see where I'm going with this. I truly believe that "text has gotta stay"-- someone said this years ago and it is the right decision, because some TXT formats will win the elimination contest I just described above. But I am wondering who wins the elimination round between: i) PG's current format for "TXT" with 80 chars ii) a format that is still all ASCII but removes all the end-of-column CR's, and only has double returns at the end of paragraphs. IMO, this ii) wins 100% hands down for "convenient time on the screen for reading the thing", based on software that everyone has right now. Yeah, some peeps might be able to write a program that takes out these CR's, but I know one time I tried it in something like MS Word, I messed it up worse. But if someone has to write a program to read, that ruins the criteria of "convenient time right now." IMO, I'm willing to toss out of the lifeboat the University CS historian on his old terminal in favor of the millions of peeps with HTML browsers. I'm not advocating for HTML, but for a TXT version without the 80 char line breaks. Just an idea. -- Greg M. Johnson http://pterandon.blogspot.com

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Re: [gutvol-d] Talking about TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

i realized i forgot one important point... about a shortcoming in the p.g. e-texts... and the fact that i could forget this one makes me fully realize how utterly and completely i've given up on those files... the p.g. e-texts do not give information on which picture goes in which location. that is, they indicate the _presence_ of a graphic at a location, but they don't tell the filename of the graphic located there. and in fact, some of the books don't even indicate that a picture was even present... i "won" the battle over marking italics, but couldn't win this one on graphic filenames. the whitewashers -- including newby -- insisted that the text-files be neutered in regard to this important information. since that position makes no sense at all, it was obvious it was an act of sabotage. they also refused to do anything to mark _significant_ mid-paragraph linebreaks, which would have eased the removal job that greg johnson was just discussing... but the picture-filenames was a fatal blow. that's when i gave up on project gutenberg. ineptitude is one thing. sabotage is another. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] zml
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

the good alex said: > Do you actually have a spec or document describing > ZML anywhere? eww, please! those capital letters stab my eyes and make 'em bleed! > Do you have a sample _implementation_ I can try, > rather than just some output? i was planning on sending you the beta version of my text-editor authoring-tool tomorrow, but maybe i can move that up to today. if anyone else wants to do some testing for me, please send a backchannel... in the meantime, alex, you can get started here: > http://www.z-m-l.com the link there will take you here: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vl3.pl for any one of those example books, you can view the .zml, or click the button to do its conversion... of particular interest would be the "11 rules of z.m.l." > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vl11.zml that's a very old version. but not much has changed. after that, you can look at the test-suite: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/test-suite.zml -bowerbird

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ZML
by Alex Buie 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

BB, Do you actually have a spec or document describing ZML anywhere? Do you have a sample _implementation_ I can try, rather than just some output? Alex (Even if you'd rather it be backchannel) -- Alex Buie Network Coordinator / Server Engineer KWD Services, Inc Media and Hosting Solutions +1(703)445-3391 +1(480)253-9640 +1(703)919-8090 abuie(a)kwdservices.com

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Re: [gutvol-d] Talking about TXT
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

greg johnson said: > ONE USE of HTML (in emails) makes it > harder for multiple people. > ANOTHER USE of HTML (in PG books) greatly > improves the readability for multiple people. nice try, greg. but reading software can be configured so that either format is equally readable. a great recent innovation in readability -- it's actually _named_ "readability" -- is one that turns the .html of web-pages _back_ to a display more like a text-file. it also eliminates a lot of the _crud_ that many web-pages have today -- e.g., ads, recent-tweet slideshows, and all of that, which is a tremendous relief as well -- but the heart of its charm is that it gives a straightforward rendering of the words. listserve software could easily use .html, and e-books could easily use plain-text. conversely, both of them could use both. it's just a small matter of programming... likewise, converters between the two are exceedingly common. if you need a link to some that work well, just let me know. programmers know the truth of formats: they ultimately end up meaning very little. what is important is _not_ how the data is wrapped, but what happens after extraction. only non-programmers are foolish enough to think a format can accomplish anything. if we took all of the energy which has been _wasted_ on formats in the past decade and put it instead into improving our programs, we would be light-years ahead of ourselves. instead, now we have listserve software that often fails for many, in one way or another. on the e-book front, we're now re-living the "browser wars" from world-wide-web history. somehow, the format wonks _never_ learn... the good news is _users_ are now aware of the importance of apps to user-experience. programmers can go directly to end-users, without wading through the format-wonks. *** greg said: > Here's an attempt to get at an > objective truth behind the format wars as per above, only non-programmers will even bother to think formats really matter. and get all strung out trying to make them. > a format that is still all ASCII > but removes all the end-of-column CR's, and > only has double returns at the end of paragraphs. first, if you eliminate the end-of-line characters, there's no need for end-of-paragraph characters to be doubled -- singles work just fine, thanks... but the mid-paragraph linebreaks in p.g. e-texts aren't really a problem that's all _that_ serious... they can be rather-easily removed systematically. if they seem serious to you, it's only because you are using some inferior and very stupid software. > Yeah, some peeps might be able to > write a program that takes out these CR's, > but I know one time I tried it in something > like MS Word, I messed it up worse. ms-word isn't the best programming environment. and if your first attempt ended in failure, then i can _invite_ you to "join the club", but to do that, you'll have to request the paperwork to be a member, and you'll have to fill it out, and send it in, and hear back, and if you're accepted, you'll have to pay dues to join. one failed attempt simply ain't enough to get inside... so if you wanna join the club, you'll need to do more. but there's no need, really, because if you really want to know how to do the job, start the dialog with me... by the time it's over, you'll know everything you need to know about how to do the job, easily and accurately. the important thing to know is that if your viewer-apps cannot do this for you, _automatically_, the problem is in your viewer-apps, not necessarily in the text-format. your viewer-apps should be able to handle any format that has included all of the reasonably important data. > I'm not advocating for HTML, but for > a TXT version without the 80 char line breaks. again, the 80-character line-breaks are easy to fix. so you're barking up the wrong tree. concentrate on the things that are _not_ easy to fix, instead, please... some of the p.g. e-texts do not include information about the _structural_ aspects underlying the text... for instance, they're missing information on italics. or they don't have a clear indication of blockquotes. _those_ are the shortcomings in the p.g. text-format. and -- in reality -- they are the fault of _the_people_ who prepared the e-texts, not endemic in the format. those structural aspects _can_ be coded in plain-text, it was just that the person _failed_ to do that coding. or the workflow failed to tell them that they should! believe it or not, i had to _fight_ to get p.g. to require that italics should get marked in the plain-text files... _greg_newby_ himself said that it was "unnecessary". in 2003! when the library already had 10,000 books! greg is a smart man. hey, he _must_ be, since he is a professor at a university in alaska, a professor with a library-science degree... but what he said that day was stupid... very very stupid... exceedingly stupid... luckily, he was big enough to admit he was wrong... and jim adcock, the jim who is continually railing on about all the deficiencies of the p.g. e-text format? we saw here that -- at least on one book he posted, but probably _every_ book he had done up to then -- jim _deleted_ italics markup from the book's e-text. he included it in the .html version, but then actually _deleted_ it from the text-version. so unbelievable! the text versions will, of course, be utterly useless if you've decided that you'll intentionally neuter them... but a well-prepared text-version, like a .zml file, can be converted into .html, .pdf, .epub, .mobi, or any number of new formats that might come along. and, with a good app, be viewed on an old machine, and not just viewed, but -- again, with a good app -- turned into a dynamite e-book with rad functionality. forget formats. concentrate on improving apps. -bowerbird

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"Peachmonk" books
by Simon Tarlink 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

@Al "Peachmonk, a serio-comic detective tale in which no firearms are used and no one is killed" (1917) is by John Eyerman (1867). Aside from a few very serious books about genealogy and paleontology, the only other offering Eyerman published is not a "Peachmonk" book, but closely allied. "Blankenberghe, a serio-comic detective tale in which no firearms are used and no one is killed" (1910). Neither book is in PG-INT. I would consider mounting both of them as projects at DPC, but neither would make much sense in ASCII text version, and Blankenberghe would only work in HTML, as a series of illos of the pages, due to the extensive use of fancy fonts in the original. As to considering them a "catalog" of titles to be produced by the DP community (and possibly linking them to the Eyerman books), the author has used many of the books of fame as elements in telling his story-many will already be in PG-INT. The balance would constitute a considerable backlog for DP production for years to come). There are 543 titles mentioned in Blankenberghe, for example. Interested in tracking them all down-a sort of Eyerman UberProject? Cheers Simple Simon

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Re: [gutvol-d] sometimes i despair
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 29 Oct '11

29 Oct '11

the other alex said: > If you expect politeness, you first > need to be considerate yourself. i haven't expected "politeness" from this list since the very first day that i came here, and the subsequent years have only confirmed it. i interact very politely with everyone who interacts politely with me... _everyone_... heck, i will even interact politely with people who have made me their "enemy" in the past, providing that they interact politely with me... i am also constantly amused by those people who tell me that i "first need to be considerate" myself, since they regularly fail to follow their own advice. i don't call people names. i don't do ad hominem. i make long posts that are elaborately documented. but some other people call _me_ names, and they do ad hominem on _me_, and they _never_ever_ seem to take much time to address my arguments. i don't do ad hominem, because i don't need to... even when i say something is _"stupid"_, i address _the_argument_ (or its absence), not _the_person_, unless pushed to the edge by excessive repetition. nobody here is stupid. i'd guess that you all score "above average" on an i.q. test. but _some_ of you do -- on occasion -- say some very stupid things... > Setting aside the flood of abuse you > regularly hurl at respected members of this list oh please. what, when, where. be specific, because _you_, alex -- right _now_ -- are doing ad hominem. > I asked you many months ago why you -- > as the only person here, to my knowledge -- > insist on contributing to this list > in ugly, bloated HTML emails, > instead of in plain-text, which is > the gold standard of mailing-lists, > especially (!) tech lists. well, first of all, alex, i have informed you that you are in my kill-filter, which means that you shouldn't really expect a reply from me, ever... by the way, very few people make my kill-filter. you must have said some _very_ stupid things... i read this post of yours on the listserve website, more or less by accident, but if i had been reading my e-mail, i never ever would have seen your post. i _did_ see your earlier queston, and i chose not to answer it, because it wouldn't have done any good. yes, my posts to this listserve come here as .html, not because i "insist" on that, but simply because the a.o.l. client provides no way to make a choice as to what it sends out. and yes, that's backwards. but it is what it is. so you will have to live with it... so, do you feel like that answer did you any good? yeah, i didn't think so. so now you will pursue your attack tactics, and point out that i could use some other software, one which _did_ give me a choice in the matter, and you will ask me why i don't do that instead? so here's my answer to that -- _i_don't_want_to_. do you feel like _that_ answer did you any good? yeah, i didn't think that it would, either. so then you will proceed to escalate your attack. you'll say "the fact that you don't want to change indicates that you're doing all this on purpose..." and i'll say "if i could take an action that would make the a.o.l. client work correctly, i _would_. but i cannot. so that's just the way it is, alex." i could also point out that it's not even in _my_ best interests to have my posts fall outside the threads in which they belong... think about it... but that won't make you happy, so you'll repeat the thing that you just said... and so then i will repeat what i just said, so you'll repeat it again. and then i'll get bored with all of that, and say "ya know, that's what happens when technocrats try to force a 'standard' on everyone. i'm sure the people at a.o.l. thought they were moving _forward_ by using .html instead of plain-text, just like the e-book standards people thought they were moving forward by mandating that e-books should use .html format exclusively, and again when they updated that to .xhtml, and now when they are changing it to .html5. hey, they always think they know what's best!" so, you see, alex, part of this .html thing is rubbing your nose in the .html when all you _really_ want is just the good ol' plain-text. do you see the bigger point? the metaphor? at least i _could_ say that, if i _decided_ to. it's not true, but it _does_ have a nice ring. the truth is, i'd happily change it right away _if_ i could. but i can't. so live with it, alex, with the takeaway lesson that we all need to make demands that our systems are flexible. > you break a discussion thread, creating > havon on (for example) my iPad and iPhone, etc. alex, i'm sure you meant "havoc" there. typing on your ipad right now, are you? :+) hey, alex, i feel for you. i truly do. it's really very important for all of us to grok how _interdependent_ we are on each other, and how much we have riding on getting our systems to work correctly, for best usage... that's your lesson, alex: our systems _matter_. > If you don't give a damn about messing up > other people's inboxes on a daily basis, see, there you go again, alex, blaming _me_ for some "decision" that i supposedly made, thinking that it means i "don't give a damn". social psychologists have a name for that -- "the fundamental attributional error". we attribute the behavior of other people to _their_character_, something about _them_. not completely, but we error in that direction. our own behavior, on the other hand, we tend to attribute to environmental factors. again, not completely, but it's the tendency. we know all of the factors impinging on us, and how they have impacted our behavior... we know the reason _why_ we did something, and it rarely has to do with "our character"... (particularly not when that'd be unflattering.) and we rarely know the external factors that were acting on somebody else, and might have been _the_ reason for their behavior. instead we say "that's just the way they are". the reality is that most of us are quite plastic, so situations can make us do almost anything. even including herding jews into gas showers. that's how pliable we can be, as human beings. kinda scary to think about, isn't it? very scary. > you can't be surprised > at the lack of civility you're experiencing, i haven't been "surprised" by the lack of civility since my very first day on this listserve, alex... (marcello, that's your cue... don't be late...) > or the lack of interest in > your innumerable projects. when i want to stir up interest in my projects, i'll release them publicly. that time will come. -bowerbird p.s. and once again, for alex and everyone else who gets irritated by reading my posts: _stop._ just stop! don't read them! i don't care! really! indeed, i'd much rather have you not read them than read them and get yourself all worked up... seriously. none of us needs the drama. nobody. put me in your kill-file if you can't resist my posts. you will be doing a favor to me, you, and everyone.

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Re: [gutvol-d] Sometimes I despair
by Greg M. Johnson 28 Oct '11

28 Oct '11

>> Enforcing "no HTML" in mailman mailing lists >> is easy, just an option in the content filters >> section. Bowerbird wrote: > i will support a "no html" policy here... > ...if we enforce it on the library as well! > whaddya say, guys? can we work a deal? > you don't really wanna be hypocrites, do you? ONE USE of HTML (in emails) makes it harder for multiple people. ANOTHER USE of HTML (in PG books) greatly improves the readability for multiple people. A raw text format would be cool-- as I've argued in the past-- much cooler than the TXT80 format, with the 80 columns. That PG's TXT isn't true raw text is why we need to go to/ keep HTML. Some might be able to write a program that does it, but it sets up a barrier to easy reading access of the books. -- Greg M. Johnson http://pterandon.blogspot.com

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