February 2011 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 23 Feb '11

23 Feb '11

michael mcdermott said: > I am simply suggesting to the other volunteers > that they trade value for value. well, that sounds like a great suggestion to me... > Feedback and testing are valuable commodities, > which is why software shops are willing to pay for them. tell me, what value would you place on the feedback which i have received thus far? i am _very_ curious... > You, on the other hand, want to receive something > (testing & feedback) and give nothing in return. actually, i don't give a flying freak, not in the slightest, for any testing and feedback i might receive from here. perhaps you didn't hear, but i have been offering to collaborate for 7 years now, and have had no takers, and didn't expect one now either, but if jana wants to jump in, then i'm more than amused to entertain us all. as for what i'm prepared to "give in return", it might well end up being nothing. or it might end up being something. we'll have to see how the thing ends up. but i don't see how i can offer this service to the world at large without also making it available to p.g./d.p. too. (believe me, if i could, i would; but i just don't see a way.) and, in case you haven't noticed, p.g. hasn't been able to offer such a conversion service itself. the closest that they can come is what rfrank is offering over at fadedpage.com, which involves an ftp-upload and then an ftp-download, so i don't think it's quite in the same ballpark, although i _do_ commend roger for helping to move the ball forward a bit. > Open source (code / testing for software) and > commercial products (money for software) are > both better trades than the one you seem to propose. i invite you to pursue those avenues as well, if you can find any. (if you can, please come back here and tell us, because i'm sure plenty of people would want to know.) as i said, i will be moving forward on this project anyway, because the world at large has awoken from its slumber, and soon pressbooks.com will be opening its doors and offering a similar service... if you think that maintaining a wordpress blog and writing the chapters of the book as blog entries is "a similar service". i don't, but you might. and hey, if you do, you might wanna check out "anthology", which is another service that _offers_ a similar capability, although you will probably find they come up a bit short. or, you know, you can wait for marcello to get caught up. in the meantime, though, i'm not worried about getting all the testing and feedback i can handle, and a lot more. do you know how many authors out there are just itching to have a simple way to create .html and .epub and .mobi? i can assure you that when i offer 'em a free tool to do it, they will _jump_ at the opportunity to give me suggestions about how they would like to see the program improved... and if the people on this listserve want this little project to end, all they have to do is let 24 hours pass quietly... > If you want a run for your money on the other hand... i _do_ want that, mr. mad computer scientist, i do. give it your best shot... i'll be waiting... -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 23 Feb '11

23 Feb '11

back when i was a young programmer, programmers learned that many people were too selfish to pay for "shareware"... fine, i guess. that's life... now, however, the selfishness has ramped up to a ridiculous level. now people want the app for free, and the source code too! if you are a person who wants source code that does this particular job, code it yourself. i'll be happy to advise you on how to code it. are we clear? *** keith said: > travis warned you i think this is probably a translation hiccup concerning the verb "warn". travis has nothing he can "warn" me about... *** keith, good question about the purpose here. this is a converter-tool that demonstrates the ability of z.m.l. to spit out the formats people want today -- .pdf, .html, .epub, and .mobi -- in a manner customized to their preferences... it is not an authoring-tool (i already have one); neither is it a viewing-tool (already have many). editing and viewing capabilities are to ease the pain of any last-minute edits that are required. *** keep the feedback and suggestions coming! but understand that this is _not_ a bicycle-shed: > http://bikeshed.org/ -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by mmcdermott＠mad-computer-scientist.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

Frankly, I look at this message and wonder what the point of offering feedback to bb is. He has made it clear that he will keep the source, and offer no support contract (which would be unfeasible anyway without some sort of profit model). In short, if you all work on this and it turns out great, you only have the software until it breaks and bb is no longer around, for whatever reason. Changing platforms guarantee that all software will break in time. Of course bb is free to do what he likes with his code, I just do not see how it is to the advantage of anyone here to help. For the record, I do think the cause of light weight markup is a good one (I use asciidoc myself), and that there is room for a tool more oriented towards ebook authoring. In conclusion, I want to encourage bb to open his code up, providing better value for all. Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone ----- Reply message ----- From: Bowerbird(a)aol.com Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 2:18 pm Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: time after time To: <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org>, <bowerbird(a)aol.com> bastien said: > Can you share some usable code? you've been around long enough to know the answer to that. so, am i going to just hand over all my code to my enemies -- the mean people who called me names for many years, and said that what i was suggesting was "impossible" -- so they can use my code against me, for their own agenda, once they decided -- as indeed, they have now decided -- that i was totally correct all along, and that the only viable workflow for project gutenberg is to use light markup? no. no. a thousand times no. and throw in a "screw you" too. am i willing to help guide people who are willing to work one-tenth as hard as i have? well, yes, i most certainly am. will i allow these people to be stuck for any period of time, follow an unproductive path, or otherwise waste their time? no, absolutely not. that's what a guide is for -- to _guide_. will i provide code fragments to these people so that they can see how it was done, even if they cannot use the code directly, because it's in basic, and they use something else? yes i positively will, without any hesitation at all. even deeper, will i explain carefully just exactly _why_ that approach to the code is the very best one to take, and why other perspectives are flawed in one way or another? yes, again, i will indeed provide such careful explanations. am i going to give you a bucket of fish? no, i'm not. am i willing to teach you how to go fishing? yes, i am. -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

jana said: > So, Bird, you have decided > the user interface wasn't "solid" > after all, huh?... (: if you want to focus on the color of the bike-shed, i will use your colors. functionality still seems more important to me, but this is a collaboration, so i am trying to be responsive to collaborators... > The options screen doesn't work correctly for me. you need to resize the browser window. this is a flaw in the compiler i am using. > I don't know when and why, > it just sometimes happens. yes, i've seen that. and the compiler guys know it's a problem. they're working on it. it's not your fault. > I had _not_ changed the text yesterday > when that huge Save button appeared. i don't know what to say. the only way that that button appears is if there is a keystroke in the edit-field... perhaps it was accidental, and you didn't even realize that you'd done it? at any rate, the "abort" button is there now, if you wanna ensure any change is not saved. and, again, every version of the file is saved, so if you want to revert at any time, it's quite easy. i will even provide some diff program so that you can see the difference between various versions... > Guess it was just some kind of glitch, > like the user interface not always looking correct; > resizing the window usually resolves that, > which does of course not make it any less irritating. as i said, the compiler guys know about this, and they're working on it. that's all i can say. > You said they were; so when's "later" going to be? i will incorporate all of the options at one time, to save time. no sense in doing them piecemeal. > The font is used in the conversions; for now, > that would mean the righthand side, because > as I understand it, that's the only conversion > we're doing right now: HTML. And in my HTML, > why not let me choose the font I wanna see? i was just asking to see what you wanted, jana... i didn't know if you meant the text-field in the tool, the html-field in the tool, or the converted output, which will consist of the .html, the .pdf, and .epub. (i don't think that .mobi allows you to specify font.) for the record, i think you should be able to specify the font for _all_ of those places... the only thing i'm unsure about is whether i should allow _different_ fonts in each of them. the positive argument is finer-grained control. the negative side is that it means more work for the user, by specifying 4 fonts instead of 1. > But that's exactly it! no, that's not "exactly it"... but it's not your fault that you don't know that. so i will explain it to you... > The righthand side _is_ a conversion, > namely the HTML conversion. well, it is, in one way, and it's not, in another way. the .html conversion is actually a file that is saved on the site itself. you can verify this for yourself... change some text in a chapter, then save the file, then navigate somewhere else and then go _back_ to that chapter, and then look at the site's directory: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/ sort by "last modified" to see the file you just created. for instance, if the text you changed was in chapter 11: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/chapter11.html load it and see that that file contains your changes... (at least until someone views an unedited chapter 11.) what the app does is that it loads in _that_ .html file... it reads the text, and puts it in the text-field, and then it does a conversion, saves the converted .html to a file, then reads that file in and displays it in the .html-field. sounds convoluted, i know, but that's how it has to do it. now, i could write an anchor into that file, but my app doesn't know about anchors when it displays its .html, so it wouldn't do any good to write in such an anchor. (you can confirm, for instance, that the file _will_ have the search-term marked to display in red, and my app _does_ understand how to display that color command. it just doesn't understand anchors... and besides that, there's no real _need_ for that, not in a converter tool. if this was a viewer-tool, ok, yeah, sure, but then if this was a viewer-tool, why would you need to have _both_ the plain-text displayed alongside the .html display?) > Are you telling me I need links from the table of contents > to the chapters in epub, mobi and PDF, but not in HTML? > That's just plain silly. yeah, that would be "just plain silly". so you can be pretty sure that's not what i was saying, because i never say anything that is "just plain silly"... (except when i'm trying to make my girlfriend smile.) all of your converted files will have a linked table of contents: the .pdf version, and the .epub, and the .mobi, and the .html. i cannot make such links work inside the tool right now, which is why i provided the table of contents in a popup. (besides, a popup is more convenient, because it means that you don't always have to sidetrack to a contents page.) and -- just so you understand all that's going on here -- i also need to tell you that the .html file that is saved out -- you know, the .html file that you looked at up above -- is _not_ the one that will be used in the conversion process. those .html files require some other little doo-dads that mean that they need to be written using another routine. (or, actually, several routines, depending on whether the .html book will all be in one file, which makes more sense, or split across many files, as required by the .epub format, which is so brain-dead it cannot handle over 300k of text, meaning we need to chop the book into bite-sized chunks.) and yes, the users of my tool are now free to roam around without having to acquire all of this technical crap, because i already did the work of slogging through all of it for them. so they can just click a button and boom!, out comes the file. so they have more time to make their significant other smile. > Then why allow for searching at all, > if you're not willing to make it user-friendly? again, this is not a viewer-tool. it is a _converter_. i put in the search facility because it might be useful. if you would prefer, i can take it out. just tell me... > You can argue that the user doesn't need > a search capability, and I would accept that. as i said, i think that it might be useful. _i_ will find it useful. there's often some text that i know that i want to check in the .html -- to see if it has been converted correctly -- and the ability to have the tool find that text for me so i don't have to remember where it is. and if i could have the tool point to it directly, i would. but the best i can do now is colorize it. > But what you are doing is arguing that > the user needs a _crippled_ search capability, > but not a _decent_ one. that's not even close to what i am saying... > That doesn't seem to make much sense to me, > I must admit. yet you have no trouble putting those words in my mouth? that's hardly the spirit of collaboration. > Yes, I can of course use my browser search > after I've used the built-in search; > that's just not very intuitive, you know?... sorry. it's the best i can do right now. if you can do better, please show us... > Why do I have to search _twice_ > in order to find something _once_? because the first search finds the appropriate chapter, and the second search finds the text inside that chapter. neither one can do the job all by itself. neither one. is that difficult to understand? -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

tuesday's version is up: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/a.fcgi fleurons installed at scene-breaks. navigation-buttons labeled. abort-button installed. find-field labeled. find-button installed. options-button installed. options-screen created, with a sampling offered. the options are not used just yet, and there is not yet a way to change 'em, but an interface is now in place. so i am ready for today's feedback and suggestions. -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

here is the first draft of the options screen for the tool: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/a-options.jpg if there are other options you think should be included, please feel free to suggest them now, so that we can get this list locked down and start on the conversions... we can add options later, but why not get it correct now? oh yeah, one more thing... this tool will be aimed at writers who want to self-publish their work, to amazon, apple, b&n, and all the other stores. (i don't know if you've heard, but that world is _exploding_. the leading self-published author -- amanda hocking -- will make well over a million dollars in just her first year.) i will, of course, get suggestions from them when i start to show writers the tool, but if any of you can anticipate their needs and make appropriate suggestions right now, i would certainly be responsive to such input. and, just so you know, the tool will be offered at no cost, as a gift to those writers... (but i repeat: this is a conversion tool, not an authoring-tool.) -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

jana said: > Well, bowerbird, > You're not following the rules, you know? oh, a wiseacre, eh? well, jana, you're in luck, because i just happen to _like_ a wiseacre. so there... :+) *** > You got your feedback, so now > go ahead and improve the program. ok, just so we get this all straight, and we understand each other, i'm not just here taking orders... i'm not an employee. i'm not a slave. this is a collaboration. so if you've got something useful to say, i am all ears... but i will be the judge of that, just like you will be the judge of whether what _i_ have said is useful to you and yours. i welcome your suggestions. but that is exactly what they are -- _suggestions_... just so we get it straight, and understand. *** > Right now I'm not interested in > a full-fledged interface > with "roughly 35 variables", > because we can't even change > 35 different things yet. ok, sounds fair. but that's what this will become, eventually, and we don't want to paint ourselves into a corner on the way to getting there, do we? but don't worry. i won't let you do that to us, ok? so just keep giving your feedback and suggestions. and i'll act on those that won't paint us into a corner. > Though, personally, I'd say no-one will complain > about proper dashes and quotation marks > if they're done correctly except we've already lodged a complaint, jana. travis pointed out that those characters can cause accessibility problems for people using screen-readers. but no problem. we'll make it an option. i have no wish to impose curly-quotes on someone who doesn't want 'em. no matter what you or anyone else might say is "correct"... > It's just a tiny few things so far, so it can't be > that hard to build a proper user interface for them. > Why not do it right from the start? because it will be many more than "a tiny few things" in the long run, and if you aren't preparing for that now, you will have to re-do things, and i'm not gonna do that. once you specify something, i'm not going to undo it later. so you might want to have a sense of the gestalt going in... > Oh, and for some reason your interface > looks like this for me currently: that's because you made a change to the text, so it's making it impossible for you to continue until you have saved that change. just hit "save" and things will return to the way they were before. i will add an "abort changes" button down the line, but it doesn't hurt to save your changes for now... each save creates a new file, so you can revert back. (at least you will be able to do so, once i code that.) > And here's the current list of things > I've asked for that you haven't done yet, > apart from the user interface suggestions: > * links from the table of contents to the chapters > * letting the user choose background and foreground colours > * letting the user choose the font to use > * jumping to the right spot in a chapter after a search suggestions #2 and #3 are on the list for later coding. (but #3 is a bit ambiguous. where is the font "used"?) i doubt i will program #1. use the pop-up menu instead. (but, of course, in the conversions, the toc will be active.) as for #4, i fail to see a need for that in a conversion tool, which is what this app is, at least for the time being, so if you can give some justification for that, i will consider it... oh, and keep it up, wiseacre. i like a wiseacre... :+) -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

travis said: > I'm not saying labeling buttons couldn't be done later, > but I am saying that if you ignore possible accessibility > issues now, you'll wind up with a product that is (at best) > a pain to use for those who need accessible applications, > and (at worst) a completely useless piece of software, > because their screen reader won't work with it, or they > can't resize text, or something else that is dead simple to > incorporate at the start, but nearly impossible to > reverse engineer into the product when it's complete. if you see something that is dead simple to incorporate at the start, but nearly impossible to put in at a later time, do let me know about that, because i do want to avoid that. but, as you said, labeling buttons doesn't fall in that category. > Is there really a need to do all that? Not complaining, > only wondering myself. Screen readers don't generally > take well to upper ascii characters. here, too, we're only displaying functionality, for those who _want_ such a thing. curly-quotes and "proper" em-dashes will not be _forced_ on anyone who don't want to have them. > Which (I thought) was exactly what xml was supposed to be > used for. (not complaining about the use of zml, only > pointing out that other options already exist.' except those "other options" do _not_ "already exist", not in a form project gutenberg can use to facilitate its workflow... and if you think you can develop such a thing, then please do, because project gutenberg has been seeking you for a decade. nobody else has been able to create such a solution for them. > Which a simple nl2br would solve nicely if this were php. :) > Again, not finding fault, simply pointing out another method. > I've never tackled something of this complexity, but > perhaps a second app written in php would be a good way > to compare and contrast different ways of doing things. > Of course, it could wind up being an exercise in futility, but > heck, I'm always willing to help, and php is what I know, so ... another version of this written in php would be totally cool, and an excellent example of the type of collaboration that i am looking for. i will be happy to provide code fragments that help you when you get stuck, and give general guidance to help keep you from getting stuck much in the first place... i myself have done a version of this in perl, and i'm sure that doing one in python would be quite simple as well, so i invite you to jump in with your php too -- the water's fine... -bowerbird

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

jana- you're welcome to design the complete interface. :+) do it that way, as a whole, instead of doing it piecemeal. until we have an app that we know that people will use, i am interested more in functionality than design, but i am responsive to help from people concerned with that. the only thing i insist on is that we maintain simplicity, a la the best of the philosophies of apple and google... no microsoft clutter-bloat. (i know you're a mac person, so you'll understand what i mean, and most likely agree.) at this point, this _is_ a tool for knowledgeable users, so we don't need to label everything; we'll save that for later, if/when we decide to make the adaptations for beginners... -bowerbird p.s. there are roughly 35 variables we will need to collect from the user in regard to their preferences, so you know. and yes, if need be, we could do this on a second screen...

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Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 21 Feb '11

21 Feb '11

monday's version is up: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/a.fcgi italics bug fixed. html background toned down. interface changes to prevent unsaved edits. @@@ scenebreak lines changed to ***. scenebreaks could also use a fleuron, as shown here: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/fleuron.html let me know if you like that or not... and i am ready for today's feedback and suggestions. with the user-interface becoming solid, we can begin to turn to some of the functionality you'd like to see... first up in that regard, of course, are the conversions. -bowerbird p.s. just as an f.y.i. for you, here's a video showing both an ipad and a galaxy tab displaying a .pdf file: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ14V_Bmxt8

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