February 2011 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

cryptic star-trek reference again
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Feb '11

18 Feb '11

again michael gives the same cryptic star-trek reference. care to explain it, michael? the internet informs me that, in this scene in the movie, spock speaks in code (so "days" actually means "hours") to mislead an enemy who is listening in on the dialog... i'm not speaking in code, nor am i misleading anyone, so i cannot say that i understand the meaning here... oh, and by the way, just in case it wasn't absolutely clear, my invitation to collaborate extends to michael as well, of course, so all he has to do to spur me into action is to say that he wants to collaborate, and then follow through. i'd love to develop a web-app or offline tool to his specs... indeed, i have wondered all along why michael has not responded more positively to the suggestions i've made. my recommendations could have cemented his vision, by trumpeting plain-text format as "the master version". indeed, if he had gotten on-board early, he could have propagated the model to internet archive, google, apple, amazon, and all of the other players in this little game... as it is, project gutenberg (in the persona of marcello) ended up going with a light-markup solution anyway, but it's a clumsy one that entails creating a separate file. even if marcello can make it work, michael will end up with no credit for the development, only a decreased rate of presence in his role as the p.g. founder and visionary. -bowerbird

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Re: the outside world rises to the challenge
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Feb '11

17 Feb '11

andrew said: > a website with lots of fashion photographs. sorry, my fault... > http://www.pressbooks.com and it's just a splash-screen for the time being. -bowerbird

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the outside world rises to the challenge
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Feb '11

17 Feb '11

rickywong said: > What do you guys think? so, did anyone respond to you backchannel about your project? or was it total silence? > How many people are on this list anyway? from 300-350, depending on duplicates. that number has been remarkably consistent for many years, rising slowly across that time, but with an extremely small amount of "churn". as you can see, though, it's extremely passive. once again, everyone here has failed to meet my challenge for them to do a collaboration... nothing new about that in terms of this list. what _is_ new is that the outside world has finally risen to the point where it thinks that _it_ can meet my challenge, as evidenced here: > http://www.pressbook.com this is a new venture from hugh mcguire, who many here will surely recognize as the founder of librivox, an audiobook public-domain project. i have talked with hugh. i am not convinced that he can best me, but i'm quite happy to see him try. so once again, everyone here at project gutenberg continues on autopilot, while the rest of the world passes them by. oh well, it was nice while it lasted. -bowerbird

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Re: Calibre: Open Source Software for Managing eBook Collections
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 14 Feb '11

14 Feb '11

keith said: > So it is up to the programs how the display something. > Some standard for displaying books!! i don't think anyone wants to talk about the .epub format. but, just to give you some idea of the confusion out there, many viewer-programs refuse to honor the margins that are set in the file. that would be all right if they let the user dictate the margins. but most of them just set their own... the same goes with a lot of the other important variables. of course, there are also things like curly vs. straight quotes, which _none_ of the viewer-programs offer as an option... so neither the e-book creators nor the users end up happy. this is the legacy that jon noring and the i.d.p.f. left us with. -bowerbird

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Re: Calibre: Open Source Software for Managing eBook Collections
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 14 Feb '11

14 Feb '11

jim said: > http://www.idpf.org/ is the source of > the descriptions of what EPUB is and > what the file format can and cannot do, > if anyone actually cares to try to actually > figure it all out. It would be a gift to > the PG community if anyone can come up with > even a simple tool that reliably takes > even one HTML file and correctly and > reliably following all the IDPF rules > convert that HTML into an EPUB that > even begins to work on most EPUB machines. jim is confused. don't let jim confuse you. the .epub file-format is a _specification_.... in other words, it's a blueprint, not a building. the i.d.p.f. -- an organization of corporate publishing houses -- designed this file-format as much to _retard_ e-books as to promote them. that is to say that it is a bad blueprint... because of this underlying agenda of sabotage, they have never provided the world at large with _reference_implementations_, which are programs that _prove_ that the file-format works correctly... for an e-book file-format, you should provide reference implementations for a viewer-app and an authoring tool, if you want a format to succeed. i.d.p.f. never provided either for their file-format. this means that every entity that wants to "support" the .epub file-format has to start apps from scratch. and at ambiguous points, they must make their own decisions about which fork in the road they will take. because of the difficulty and the ambiguity of .epub, the viewer-apps have been hung up with problems... and each app has gotten hung up at a different place, and taken different paths to get there, with the result being that all of these viewer-apps are inconsistent... they are inconsistent with the spec, and with each other. indeed, sometimes the same viewer-app is inconsistent across its own _versions_, so a workaround that solved a problem in version 1.1 _causes_ a problem in v1.2... it's a nightmare. and that nightmare was _caused_ by i.d.p.f. and the .epub file-format. _intentionally_. in fact, one of the biggest embarrassments is adobe, who is a _member_ of the i.d.p.f., and their _major_ tech organization. their viewer-program is so lame that it cannot handle chunks bigger than 300k, so a person creating an e-book has to chop up the text into bite-sized pieces so the adobe app can gum it... so it's a pipe-dream to think that you can implement a single .epub file that works reliably on all machines. and that is _because_ of .epub, not in spite of it... > It is NOT as simple as hacking an existing EPUB > and inserting your unmangled HTML into the zip file > -- as anyone who has tried this approach on > non-trivial HTML files has found. it's curious that when jim is arguing in support of .html, it's because .html is a common, well-understood format, and it serves as the basis for both .epub and .mobi files... but then jim turns around and tells keith that .html is this monster of complexity, and so is the creation of .epubs... and jim seems not to even realize he contradicts himself. at any rate, let us attack this bug-bear one more time, ok? because jim, let me tell you, as i did before, that you are walking into the same trap sprung on my detractors before. when they were attacking z.m.l., one line of argument was that z.m.l. couldn't handle complex books. this attack was presented repeatedly, day after day, month after month, for _years_, until they became totally and completely convinced it was the absolute truth. for a long time, i played possum, and declined to mount a counter. then, when the time came, i asked a question -- "can you show me some such books?" they had no answer. so it was _my_ turn to pound, and i did, asking them repeatedly for examples they could not provide. needless to say, jim, but the jig is up now, even if i _did_ feel like stringing you along for a long time, which i don't. i played them as fools, getting them to bet their credibility, which they did, and subsequently lost. but you have none to begin with, so there's no fun in playing poker with you. so i will cut directly to the chase. if there is _any_ truth to your argument about "non-trivial" books that i cannot handle with my tool-set, point to them. if we assume there are 20,000 non-duplicate e-books in the p.g. library, and the "non-trivial" ones constitute 30%, then there will be 6,000 non-trivial books. so if you find just 30% of _those_, you could point to some 1,800 books. so let's start very small, ok, jim, and point me to just _18_. i'm waiting, jim. you've kept me waiting a lot, lately, jim... > Is there already such a tool on the internet? > Not that I've found -- and god knows I've gone looking. as i told all of you earlier, if you really need a program to help you create .epub files, backchannel me and i will point you to one that typically does a pretty darn good job. oh, and there's always calibre as well. it does a good job too, in spite of what jim says about it. he always blames his tools. because that's what poor carpenters do... -bowerbird

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Re: awfully quiet -- 2555 chances at redemption
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 14 Feb '11

14 Feb '11

rickywong said: > But I hope the vision is clear. it is. but there are lots of annotation sites these days, chief among them being bookglutton.com... what i don't see yet is how all of them differ, what their strengths and weaknesses might be, how they might collaborate with each other, and how the finally situation will resolve itself... -bowerbird

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Re: awfully quiet -- 2555 chances at redemption
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 13 Feb '11

13 Feb '11

jim said: > Here’s a look at what a PG to HTML and PDF > “automatic conversion” pretty printer program > would look like if one were ever actually written – > oh wait, look, one ALREADY WAS WRITTEN > almost ten years ago! right... which makes it all the more amazing that people here kept telling me that it was "impossible". (and lately, jim, you've been the one claiming that!) but eventually, yes, we did discuss gutenmark here, as part of the proof that finally made them shut up. you could look in the archives if you wanted to, jim. you're walking into the same trap they walked into... the upshot, in case anyone new is getting excited, is that the developer of gutenmark _abandoned_ it, because -- as he related on his website -- e-texts from project gutenberg were simply too inconsistent to generate dependable output on a regular basis... gutenmark still works quite fine if you are willing to clean places where the conversion didn't do too well. but it's not the kind of tool naive users can count on. that's why i was making all my efforts to get p.g. to commit to the path of making its e-texts consistent. (and to fill the other holes that needed to be filled, for figure-placement and rewrapping, for instance.) but the people with their fingers on the power-buttons weren't willing to give up their positions of authority by making it possible for end-users to do what they want. they preferred to be the martyrs who work very very hard. and now, of course, they are hoist with their own petard. *** but yeah, jim, nice attempt to change the subject again. *** still no one who wants to collaborate, eh? no big surprise. -bowerbird

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Kindle, nook, Sony, iPad, etc. (Michael S. Hart)
by Adair 13 Feb '11

13 Feb '11

Having just had a discussion with an owner/user of Kindle DX; and having purchased one: The + are 1. the DX includes Whispernet at no additional cost, other Kindle versions require an internet subscription of some sort. Of course one does need to be within the range of the wireless network, a map of which one can find at amazon. Amazon will also send your items - but this is at a fee to your Amazon account, which might be easier if you want to send something to a device you control but do not have at hand. 2. the DX (only model of Kindle - I think) has Text to Speech. A very useful feature if you like to listen while doing other vision required tasks. It is still a bit *unfinished* and is listed as an unsupported feature. Some books have this ability, as listed on the book/magazine/newspaper details. 3. The ability to read in bright sunlight is awesome. The - are 1. The DX is B/W :( 2. Others which I am too soon an owner to know if the shortcomings are the device or the user :) hth Adair On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 9:32 AM, <gutvol-d-request(a)lists.pglaf.org> wrote: > Send gutvol-d mailing list submissions to > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > gutvol-d-request(a)lists.pglaf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > gutvol-d-owner(a)lists.pglaf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of gutvol-d digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: awfully quiet -- 2555 chances at redemption (Ricky Wong) > 2. Kindle, nook, Sony, iPad, etc. (Michael S. Hart) > 3. Bookbinders (Bruce Feist) > 4. Re: Bookbinders (Norbert Langkau) > 5. Re: Bookbinders (David Starner) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ricky Wong <rickwong(a)gmail.com> > To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> > Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:55:20 -0500 > Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: awfully quiet -- 2555 chances at redemption > On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 7:12 PM, <Bowerbird(a)aol.com> wrote: > >> ricky said: >> > I'm also working on a web app. >> > How come you didn't launch it in the past 7 years? >> >> you've walked into the bar at the end of a long bar-fight... >> >> so it's not surprising that you've asked the wrong question. >> >> but hey, welcome to the list! :+) >> >> > Nice to meet you too!! > > >> so, what's your idea for your web-app? >> >> > I'm trying to make books on Gutenberg more social and enriched with > multimedia. People are already doing this to some extend (e.g. > annotation/comment for the Quran - http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page or > the Bible etc.. on Kindle - > https://kindle.amazon.com/most_popular/books_by_public_noters) > > You can see the app here <http://bit.ly/hjGhQi> (Note: It has a video demo > on the right for ebooks on tablets. It's a business venture that I'm trying > to get going, which is a little different than the web app). For example, > you can annotate Art of War <http://bit.ly/gzPRXm> and Alice's Adventures > in Wonderland <http://bit.ly/e9NljS> now. You can click any paragraph to > add text, images, or YouTube video to enrich any book (try pasting a link to > the box). Getting content into the app is easy. You can email it as an > attachment (only html at the moment...) or enter a url into the textbox. > * > * > Why is this useful? > > - Allow readers to connect directly within the relevant parts of the > book. > - Allow teachers/author/moderator/community to track, monitor, > recognize, and reward readers who have made (good) contributions. > > maybe somebody here can help you out... >> > > Please do :-) I think the problem is that I need to get enough readers to > make it worthwhile since 90% people read, 9% modify content, and 1% create > content... What do you guys think? How many people are on this list anyway? > > >> (and if you really wanna know about the bar-fight, ask.) >> > > Is there a short version? :-) What is your app? > > >> >> *** >> >> michael said: >> > "You just go on quoting those regulations, Lt. Saavik." >> >> > "Hours could seem like days, days could seem like weeks." >> >> sorry, dude, i had to use google... >> >> star trek? >> >> really? >> >> raise your hand if you knew michael hart is a trekkie. >> >> i didn't. >> >> i'm not one of those, so i'll have to pass on those references. >> (or, you know, you could explain them in plain english.) >> >> >> > "Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning." >> >> but peter pan, and neverland? that i can jump on... >> >> let's let wikipedia explain: >> > The novel explains that the Neverlands >> > are found in the minds of children, and that >> > although each is 'always more or less an island', >> > and they have a family resemblance, >> > they are not the same from one child to the next. >> >> i don't mind being called a child with an imagination. >> >> >> > In Barrie's original tale, >> > Peter led Wendy and her brothers to Neverland by flying >> > 'second to the right, and straight on till morning' >> > for many days, though it is stated in the novel that >> > Peter made up these directions on the spot to impress Wendy, >> > and that they found the island only because >> > it was out looking for them. >> >> this particular neverland has been actively seeking them. >> but they never appeared. >> >> >> > In the 1953 Disney film, Peter Pan, the word >> > 'star' is added to the directions Peter speaks: >> > 'second star to the right, and straight on till morning.' >> >> ooh, gee, michael hart is quoting the _disney_ version, >> and not the public-domain one... that's a curious fact... >> (maybe wikipedia has it wrong; it's possible, you know.) >> >> anyway... >> >> michael is not my real target here. he was never a villain. >> if anything, he provided me some protection against them. >> >> he has needled me, on many occasions, trying to provoke me >> into taking some action, which is what it looks like he's doing >> here again. this borders on "vaporware" charges, but i don't >> think michael is quite that mean-spirited. i could be wrong... >> >> the thing is, whenever i have gotten around to demonstrating >> the proof in the pudding, michael has never responded to it... >> >> so yes, in many senses, he missed the boat. that's his problem. >> i gave him information he could have used. he didn't use it. ok. >> >> but again, he's not my target. >> >> truth be told, most of my targets have killfiled me by now, >> because they were tired of me saying "i told you i was right." >> >> so they don't even know they've been given "one last chance". >> >> doesn't matter anyway, because they would've turned it down. >> they're stupid. proud. and stupidly proud, and proudly stupid. >> and it's absolutely clear they'll continue to be stupid and proud. >> >> so the real test here is for the lurkers, the ones who never >> antagonized me, but never stepped in to protect me either. >> >> i don't have anything against those people. you can't blame >> people for their failure to step into the middle of a bar-fight. >> >> however, they might want a chance to redeem themselves too. >> >> but i also know enough about lurkers to know that they won't >> step up now, either, to take advantage of this last opportunity. >> >> the thing is, now that roger frank is starting to do some stuff >> that has a chance to move this project forward, i am actually >> now challenged to demonstrate the superiority of my method. >> >> it's not a huge challenge, it's puny, but it's still _something_... >> >> and that challenge is motivating me enough to take action, so >> -- since i was gonna mount something anyway -- i decided to >> give the people of this listserve one more chance to collaborate. >> >> so, is anyone going to step up? or not? >> >> -bowerbird >> >> p.s. for those who'd prefer to follow roger's take on things, >> you can catch yourself up-to-date by reading this full thread: >> > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=737285#737285 >> >> or, if you want to cut directly to the chase, you can start here: >> > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=738849#738849 >> >> essentially, his website now has an .rst to .html/.epub converter: >> > http://www.fadedpage.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gutvol-d mailing list >> gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org >> http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d >> >> > > > -- > My [Blog <http://bit.ly/f78b3u>] [Facebook <http://on.fb.me/gXRMh3>] [ > Twitter <http://bit.ly/f4hRpq>] and [LinkedIn <http://linkd.in/g3VevR>] > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Michael S. Hart" <hart(a)pglaf.org> > To: The gutvol-d Mailing List <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> > Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 05:28:42 -0800 (PST) > Subject: [gutvol-d] Kindle, nook, Sony, iPad, etc. > > We are putting together a little list of things people wish they > had known before starting with their devices. > > Please let me know of any favorite tricks, battery life stories, > how to download PG eBooks in various ways, display options, etc. > > Any devices. . . . > > > Thanks!!! > > > Michael > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Bruce Feist <brucedfeist(a)gmail.com> > To: gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:31:02 -0500 > Subject: [gutvol-d] Bookbinders > I'm considering removing the pages from a 1911 book I have in order to scan > them, and then having the book professionally reassembled. Can any of you > suggest a reliable and inexpensive bookbinder to do this? Am I mad to even > consider the idea? > > The book probably doesn't have any particular cash value, but it does have > sentimental value to me. It's called "English for New Americans", and my > grandfather used it when he came to this country around 1930. (The book > itself is from 1911; it was used when he got it.) I'm willing to have it go > through this abuse, but I'd like to have it usable afterward. > > Bruce Feist > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Norbert Langkau" <no.la(a)web.de> > To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> > Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:51:39 +0100 (CET) > Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Bookbinders > > Hi Bruce,I found the easiest way to dissamble a book by having a bookbinder > do the cutting with the machine they regularly use to bring their sheets in > a rectangular form.And for the re-assembling: here, especially in the cities > with a university (and university library) the cheapest is - the local > prison. I have no idea whether that is done in the US as well, but as they > have to keep the inmates busy and give them an education for the time after > the sentence, quite a few have a bookbinder shop established - and those are > cheap and do a darn good job.Best regards - Norbert-----Ursprüngliche > Nachricht----- > > Von: "Bruce Feist" <brucedfeist(a)gmail.com> > > Gesendet: 12.02.2011 15:31:02 > > An: gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > > Betreff: [gutvol-d] Bookbinders > > > > >I'm considering removing the pages from a 1911 book I have in order to > > >scan them, and then having the book professionally reassembled. Can any > > >of you suggest a reliable and inexpensive bookbinder to do this? Am I > > >mad to even consider the idea? > > > > > >The book probably doesn't have any particular cash value, but it does > > >have sentimental value to me. It's called "English for New Americans", > > >and my grandfather used it when he came to this country around 1930. > > >(The book itself is from 1911; it was used when he got it.) I'm willing > > >to have it go through this abuse, but I'd like to have it usable > afterward. > > > > > >Bruce Feist > > >_______________________________________________ > > >gutvol-d mailing list > > >gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > > >http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > > ___________________________________________________________ > WEB.DE <http://web.de/> DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 €/mtl.! Jetzt mit > gratis Handy-Flat! http://produkte.web.de/go/DSL_Doppel_Flatrate/2 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Starner <prosfilaes(a)gmail.com> > To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org> > Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:32:32 -0800 > Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Bookbinders > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Bruce Feist <brucedfeist(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > I'm considering removing the pages from a 1911 book I have in order to > scan > > them, and then having the book professionally reassembled. Can any of > you > > suggest a reliable and inexpensive bookbinder to do this? Am I mad to > even > > consider the idea? > > Why are you scanning it? http://books.google.com/books?id=_pcUAAAAYAAJ > has a copy, http://www.archive.org/details/englishfornewam01covegoog > has a copy derived from a scanning no longer available, and > http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924031755584 is a fresh Archive.org > scan. > > -- > Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero. > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > >

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Kindle, nook, Sony, iPad, etc.
by Michael S. Hart 13 Feb '11

13 Feb '11

We are putting together a little list of things people wish they had known before starting with their devices. Please let me know of any favorite tricks, battery life stories, how to download PG eBooks in various ways, display options, etc. Any devices. . . . Thanks!!! Michael

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awfully quiet -- 2555 chances at redemption
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 13 Feb '11

13 Feb '11

ok, so i've been on this listserve over 7 years. that's over 2555 days. during that time, i have advised you what to do. you didn't listen. i offered to help you. in return, you attacked me, denigrated me, slandered me... every day, i gave you a new chance at redemption. you blew it... over 2555 chances at redemption... i have written several drafts of yet another post telling you how you missed the boat on what i have been offering you, and i will consolidate all those versions, and post it sometime soon... but i'm here, today, and tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that, offering you _still_another_ explicit chance at redemption... i will upload a web-app today. this app will be a collaborative project of this listserve, aiming to instantiate the advice i've offered you for years. every day, based on feedback given on this list, i will improve the program. you must give some kind of feedback -- reviews, requests, whatever -- on the app _every_day_, or the project collapses. each day, we just have to make a little baby step, some kind of improvement moving us forward... it doesn't have to be a giant step, just a baby step. but if we fail to make a step one day, it's all over... we're going to start small, and take small steps. but if we work together, _every_day,_ it won't be long at all before we have something worthwhile. together, we can create something of value. or not. the decision is up to you. this is your last chance at redemption. don't blow it. -bowerbird

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