- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

donovan said: > Try as an experiment > putting in the HTML version of the document > a tag such as > blah blah blah <note1> blah blah > and in your header a link to an external style sheet (CSS2) > In that external style sheet, put something like > note1 { > content:after "Your comment here"; > } > or perhaps > content: url(note1.html); so, you want the user to edit an .html file at the insertion point of every annotation, and then edit the .css file appropriately... i'll let the original poster tell us whether that is something he feels is reasonable or not... > Of course, this will only work in a CSS2 compliant browser, > so for now that's everybody except IE. or, to put it another way, 1 out of 8 people. *** scott said: > I don't have time to debate Bowerbird on these points, i asked some fairly simple questions. there is no "debate". all you have to do is answer the fairly simple questions... > If the original poster decides to use Frontier > and whatever techie they find gets stuck, > I'll be happy to help them out. so even a "techie" might "get stuck" doing this? well, ok. but your offer to help them out is certainly generous... > I have done this kind of work, have automated it, > am in business, and have and do charge for it. great! can you point us to your for-a-fee solution? i would be interested in pricing it. do you have a cost-free demo? i'd like to see the profit-margin on "a few simple scripts". -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

jon said: > Anyone can build "tools", but there's a gazillion > "tools" out there gathering dust on shelves there are? can you point us to a half-dozen of these gazillion? > Anyone can build "tools", but there's a gazillion > "tools" out there gathering dust on shelves > because the authors did not do their homework properly > and try to understand the truly important requirements > leading to widescale embracement. well, have you written reviews on these tools to inform the authors about "the proper homework" and "the truly important requirements"? if so, i'd like to see the reviews and get this head-start. let's examine an actual example that i gave in this thread. tk3, from nightkitchen.com, has good annotation features. these include dogearing, highlighting (in 4 different colors), stickies (in those same 4 colors), and a notebook capability, which allows the user to include text, graphics, and movies from the e-book in their notes. annotations can be shared. how does that stack up to your gazillion other tools, jon? > No need to build "tools" to provide this perspective. > That's silly. The tools can be built, whether based on > XML or plain text, when there is a need and a decision > to go ahead *after* fully understanding the requirements. except you will _not_ fully comprehend the situation _until_ you build the tools. it's an iterative process. and the fact that you don't know that is one of our main points of contention... i encourage you to get some programming experience, jon. it'll make you a lot smarter... -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

jon said: > Since the W3C standards are open and universal, > others can likewise build their own application -- > no need to invent a new hooking mechanism. so you are telling the original poster that he can "build his own application", is that what i'm getting? nobody in the big wide world of x.m.l. has done it yet? it's interesting how you always say "x.m.l. can do this", but when it gets right down to it, nobody has done it. when are y'all gonna get around to solving these issues? you're telling people that they can do it themselves, but meanwhile the experts haven't even done it yet! don't you sense the disconnect in what you're saying? vapor vapor vapor vapor vapor. > Markup can change, but in the case of using 'id', > the document maintainers will be careful to keep 'id's > undisturbed as much as possible during document edits. keep that in mind when you're building your system, scott! > Can this be done with plain text? Not as easily i'll worry about the plain-text implementation. and it'll be all you can do to keep up with me... > (I was thinking of it back in 2000 for Yomu.) what was "yomu"? people here might want to know. -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Jon Noring 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

Scott wrote: > Bowerbird wrote: >> you've got some slippery thinking here about the "id" markers. >> do they already exist in the text? how did they get there? >> how did the database, which links id markers and annotations, >> come into existence? how are annotations shared with others? >> can annotations be made on annotations? what about things like >> graphics and movies -- how can they be utilized as annotations? > I don't have time to debate Bowerbird on these points, but if the > original poster or anyone else who is actually going to work on > annotation has serious questions, I'll be happy to throw in my $0.02 > if I notice the thread. Most of the time one doesn't have to author an actual implementation to determine whether it will be hard or not. Most experienced and even inexperienced programmers instinctively know the difficulty of most proposed applications. It's like saying "if I go to the roof of a tall building and toss a bowling ball off the side, it will begin accelerating to the ground." It's obvious what will happen --there's no need to even waste the time and run the experiment. Some aspects of the current discussion about external annotation of digital texts is similar. If one wants to implement some system, planning and forethought are needed *before* writing lines of code. For example, does XML confer benefits in the annotation system over plain text, or vice-versa? Obviously, Bowerbird wants everyone in the digital text arena to embrace regularized digital text, and he is (apparently) building a set of working applications (he calls them "tools") to prove his point. All the power to him. But we certainly have the right to bring up the requirements issues and call into question whether regularized plain text is sufficient for all uses and needs of the digital text universe. There are those among us, including yours truly, who believe that XML should form the core of digital publishing processes and formats. Even if Bowerbird implements his system, we will ask: "will it do this and do that?" We *know* that XML and its many associated W3C and IETF specifications and RFCs confers a powerful and sufficient foundation to do all the myriad things proposed for the digital publishing universe (that I know of at least, and I've looked at a *lot* of advanced uses.) And we don't have to write code to *know* this as true (see bowling ball discussion above.) Those who listen to Garrison Keillor's "Prairie Home Companion" are familiar with the fictional "Ralph's Pretty Good Grocery" (RPGG) in Lake Wobegon. Their advertising slogan is "If you can't get it at Ralph's, you can probably get along without it." Bowerbird's system is clearly a RPGG since I know it will NOT do everything that has been discussed for digital texts. Whether it will hit the sweet spot and win the hearts and minds of the ebook masses (which must include all the important stakeholders in the digital publishing universe), who will overlook its deficiencies, remains to be seen. I'm skeptical, but will wait to see what arrives. Jon

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

scott said: > All that's required is a tab-delimitted file > (or database or spreadsheet) with 2 columns: > id, annotation. again, i say, please provide people with this solution! if it's as easy as you say, it shouldn't take much time. right? > Now, in your favorite scripting or programming language, > iterate thru the file, read the id and annotation, > then replace the former with the latter in the marked-up book. > (Including the appropriate (X)HTML wrapper, as noted.) you've got some slippery thinking here about the "id" markers. do they already exist in the text? how did they get there? how did the database, which links id markers and annotations, come into existence? how are annotations shared with others? can annotations be made on annotations? what about things like graphics and movies -- how can they be utilized as annotations? > For someone who doesn't write scripts, it's not trivial. > For someone who does, it's a few lines of code. as above, if it's just a few lines of code, why won't you write 'em? > Note that with a little more techie work, > the process could be simplified for the annotaters. that simplification would be a good thing, yes, a good thing indeed. > They could add the annotation text directly in the document, > surrounded by unique delimiters. and maybe with just a little bit more techie work, you could provide those "unique delimiters" for them, save them the trouble. not everyone knows x.h.t.m.l., and not everyone wants to learn it. > Then, a script could generate any version, > e.g. replace delimiters with (X)HTML wrapper > and/or with a generated unique ID; > extract the annotations to a separate (X)HTML file > that can be printed on its own, etc. sounds nifty. i'll implement this for a plain-text file, and you do the implementation for a marked-up file, and we'll see who gets done first, and who has the solution that proves to be more powerful and robust. how about it scott? are you up for the challenge? > All this stuff is pretty easy for a college student > with any scripting experience. then it should be a piece of cake for you, scott, right? > Sure, in the ideal world. Meanwhile, > inserting unique IDs is a pragmatic solution. i think that such a "pragmatic solution" would prove to be a false economy, by causing more problems than it solves, over the long run. any time you fork the original text into a different file, you're creating a brittleness that will bite you, and causing yourself unnecessary editing trouble in the future. > Of course there's some work involved > to sync the marked version with any future PG updates that's exactly what i was just talking about, yep. > but given "diff" tools, it's not that much work > for a handful of annotated books. > (And, with a little work, could be largely automated.) have you ever done this type of work? have you been successful in automating it? if so, then you would be well-advised to start a business, and charge the world for your expertise, since there are lots of companies who are finding it expensive to do this, and they would dearly love to find a less-costly solution... > And, I'm all in favor of someone taking the time > to get an XPATH solution working. me too! how about you doing that work? -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by D Garcia 18 Aug '05

18 Aug '05

Separation of content, anyone? Try as an experiment putting in the HTML version of the document a tag such as blah blah blah <note1> blah blah and in your header a link to an external style sheet (CSS2) In that external style sheet, put something like note1 { content:after "Your comment here"; } or perhaps content: url(note1.html); Of course, this will only work in a CSS2 compliant browser, so for now that's everybody except IE.

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Aug '05

17 Aug '05

jon said: > How is that? > Annotations can be linked to the text > using the markup as "hooks" (e.g., using XPointer.) > The more markup there is, > the more hooks to latch onto. please show me -- and the original poster -- an implementation that actually works, now. > Pointing to 'id' ("fragment identifiers") is the most robust > and can survive various types of document edits. > In plain text systems, where annotations have to > hook to the content itself (rather than markup > which is separate from the content), > it is more difficult to prevent link breakage. this is another case of disingenuous sleight-of-hand. you are trying to make us believe that the text changes and the markup doesn't. what you've done, though, is merely specified that there is markup which _cannot_ change (the "fragment identifiers"), so as to assure link-permanence. if i were to specify content that can not change, i can guarantee link-permanence as well. and in almost all cases, we're more likely to have text-invariance than to have markup-invariance. (but this is beside the point, since it's easy enough to specify invariance of text and markup. it is also very easy to show link breakage in cases of variance.) -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Aug '05

17 Aug '05

scott said: > The ideal solution would be a tiny bit of automation > (perhaps created by a student if techie stuff isn't your thing). "tiny" is a very misleading term, i think. unless you can show me this "tiny" thing. > Then you could keep the annotations separate, > and just add small markers to the original text. um, keeping the annotations separate is a good idea. but requiring "small markers" in the original text is not. the text should remain unchanged, for many reasons. > Simple scripts could do things like: > - format the annotations on their own > - insert the annotations into the text, > preferably with appropriate HTML wrapper that > lets readers show/hide using CSS (style sheets) or JavaScript. except what you have described is _far_ from "simple", as well as i can tell. do you have sample implementations? > As others have noted, HTML > or the newer XHTML is ideal here. "ideal"? i think not. indeed, to the direct contrary, i believe that heavy markup makes on-the-fly adding of annotations _extremely_ difficult. but, as i said, if you can show me some examples, ones that make it as simple as you make it sound, i am open to being convinced otherwise... -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Aug '05

17 Aug '05

branko said: > I would assume this works the way > the creation of any other educational material works: > teachers sit down and write the stuff. but once you've done that, you want your students to have a tool that presents the annotations alongside the text to which they refer. preferably a tool that then lets _them_ edit them, or add their own annotations. and finally, a tool that lets everyone _share_ annotations, perhaps even _pool_ all of them -- within a single class, or across many years -- perhaps in such a manner that the annotations themselves can become an independent e-book. -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Annotations for students
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 17 Aug '05

17 Aug '05

thad said: > Hi. I'm a college lit teacher and > have been thinking about doing footnotes and annotations > of the sort most editions for college students supply > for some PG classics, so my students could have the > usual kinds of help reading them, and print them out, > mark them up, bring them to class for discussion, etc. > (I think the lack of notes. not the quality of the texts > themselves, is currently the main barrier to > more widespread use of PG texts in classes.) > If I did this, I'd want to make the annotations available > free for anybody else who wanted to use them for teaching > (or just to read). Some form of structured markup that > allowed people to reformat and print to different sizes > and devices in the future would be nice, rather than pdfs... this is an entirely reasonable course of action. what you need is a viewer-program that can incorporate freestanding annotations into the presentation of the text (which remains static). i have written such a viewer-program, but have not yet programmed the annotation capabilities. if you'd be able to outline the ones you would like, and be willing to test them once i programmed 'em, i'd be happy to proceed that way... we usually think of "annotations" as textual, but they can actually manifest in a variety of ways, such as margin highlights, graphics, movies, etc. (see tk3 at nightkitchen.com for a program that is adept at allowing multiple types of annotations.) making your annotations widely and freely available, such as putting them on your website for download, is a generous thing to do... -bowerbird

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