- gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

travis said: > I'm not saying labeling buttons couldn't be done later, > but I am saying that if you ignore possible accessibility > issues now, you'll wind up with a product that is (at best) > a pain to use for those who need accessible applications, > and (at worst) a completely useless piece of software, > because their screen reader won't work with it, or they > can't resize text, or something else that is dead simple to > incorporate at the start, but nearly impossible to > reverse engineer into the product when it's complete. if you see something that is dead simple to incorporate at the start, but nearly impossible to put in at a later time, do let me know about that, because i do want to avoid that. but, as you said, labeling buttons doesn't fall in that category. > Is there really a need to do all that? Not complaining, > only wondering myself. Screen readers don't generally > take well to upper ascii characters. here, too, we're only displaying functionality, for those who _want_ such a thing. curly-quotes and "proper" em-dashes will not be _forced_ on anyone who don't want to have them. > Which (I thought) was exactly what xml was supposed to be > used for. (not complaining about the use of zml, only > pointing out that other options already exist.' except those "other options" do _not_ "already exist", not in a form project gutenberg can use to facilitate its workflow... and if you think you can develop such a thing, then please do, because project gutenberg has been seeking you for a decade. nobody else has been able to create such a solution for them. > Which a simple nl2br would solve nicely if this were php. :) > Again, not finding fault, simply pointing out another method. > I've never tackled something of this complexity, but > perhaps a second app written in php would be a good way > to compare and contrast different ways of doing things. > Of course, it could wind up being an exercise in futility, but > heck, I'm always willing to help, and php is what I know, so ... another version of this written in php would be totally cool, and an excellent example of the type of collaboration that i am looking for. i will be happy to provide code fragments that help you when you get stuck, and give general guidance to help keep you from getting stuck much in the first place... i myself have done a version of this in perl, and i'm sure that doing one in python would be quite simple as well, so i invite you to jump in with your php too -- the water's fine... -bowerbird

2 1

Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 22 Feb '11

22 Feb '11

jana- you're welcome to design the complete interface. :+) do it that way, as a whole, instead of doing it piecemeal. until we have an app that we know that people will use, i am interested more in functionality than design, but i am responsive to help from people concerned with that. the only thing i insist on is that we maintain simplicity, a la the best of the philosophies of apple and google... no microsoft clutter-bloat. (i know you're a mac person, so you'll understand what i mean, and most likely agree.) at this point, this _is_ a tool for knowledgeable users, so we don't need to label everything; we'll save that for later, if/when we decide to make the adaptations for beginners... -bowerbird p.s. there are roughly 35 variables we will need to collect from the user in regard to their preferences, so you know. and yes, if need be, we could do this on a second screen...

2 1

Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 21 Feb '11

21 Feb '11

monday's version is up: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/a.fcgi italics bug fixed. html background toned down. interface changes to prevent unsaved edits. @@@ scenebreak lines changed to ***. scenebreaks could also use a fleuron, as shown here: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/fleuron.html let me know if you like that or not... and i am ready for today's feedback and suggestions. with the user-interface becoming solid, we can begin to turn to some of the functionality you'd like to see... first up in that regard, of course, are the conversions. -bowerbird p.s. just as an f.y.i. for you, here's a video showing both an ipad and a galaxy tab displaying a .pdf file: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ14V_Bmxt8

2 1

Re: cryptic star-trek reference again
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 21 Feb '11

21 Feb '11

michael said: > However, if it is NOT "all over," then perhaps I should say > that BB took my advice and "let days seem like weeks." > And therefore, because day seemed like weeks, > the absence a day might have made was not fatal. um, let me apply my own windex. if one day passes without some feedback on this app that i have just put up, then the whole thing is over... yes, even one measly day. i'm not gonna sit around for a week to get the message. i've already been sitting around waiting for 7 years now. the rest of the world caught up, so i can't wait any more. they are interested, even if _you_people_ can't care less. so it's _every_ day, or nothing. there are 300 people on this listserve. if each one takes responsibility for just one day, you can have me doing work on this app for the next 10 months, which would generate one heckuva tool, for sure... but if no one responds within _each_ calendar day, _every_day_, the whole thing comes crashing down. i will still build my tool -- i'll build it for the world -- but i will no longer be entertaining your suggestions. i hope this makes things totally clear. -bowerbird

1 0

Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 21 Feb '11

21 Feb '11

bastien said: > Can you share some usable code? you've been around long enough to know the answer to that. so, am i going to just hand over all my code to my enemies -- the mean people who called me names for many years, and said that what i was suggesting was "impossible" -- so they can use my code against me, for their own agenda, once they decided -- as indeed, they have now decided -- that i was totally correct all along, and that the only viable workflow for project gutenberg is to use light markup? no. no. a thousand times no. and throw in a "screw you" too. am i willing to help guide people who are willing to work one-tenth as hard as i have? well, yes, i most certainly am. will i allow these people to be stuck for any period of time, follow an unproductive path, or otherwise waste their time? no, absolutely not. that's what a guide is for -- to _guide_. will i provide code fragments to these people so that they can see how it was done, even if they cannot use the code directly, because it's in basic, and they use something else? yes i positively will, without any hesitation at all. even deeper, will i explain carefully just exactly _why_ that approach to the code is the very best one to take, and why other perspectives are flawed in one way or another? yes, again, i will indeed provide such careful explanations. am i going to give you a bucket of fish? no, i'm not. am i willing to teach you how to go fishing? yes, i am. -bowerbird

1 0

Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Feb '11

20 Feb '11

jana said: > Now, I get stuff like this: oops. ok, i'll fix that. good eye. > Oh ick, are you serious about that background image?... well, i like it. plus it's funny when people squirm. but i will change it for you... :+) > What are those @@@ lines? > Whatever they might be, they don't belong > into the output, so get rid of them. well, they are scene-breaks, so yes, they _do_ belong in the output. but you don't like "@@@"? ok, i'll change it to the standard "***" for you... > Or, how about letting the user choose > background and foreground colours? i'm all in favor of user-choice. and isn't it very interesting, folks, that once you start _asking_ people what they actually prefer, you learn that they have all kinds of preferences lurking there. once you give them control, they want to control the style of the quotes, and the style of dashes, and the background and foreground colors, and even the way that they choose to _spell_ "colours", all kinds of things. and yes, of course, if you just feed 'em something -- heck, just about anything -- they will eat it, and not complain much, and maybe you _think_ you are "making them happy" with that, but it's only because you offered them zero choice... if they are allowed to seize the power to control the display to their own preferences, they _will_ do so... there is an important lesson to be learned here... *** > weren't you going to allow us to > load in our own text to the app? yes, and a limited version of that is now there. in the search-field, type "doload140" -- one word, no spaces, no quotes -- and then press [enter]... give it a minute, because it's loading in a copy of "the jungle" directly from project gutenberg, pg#140. then type "dosplit" in the search-field, and press [enter] to have the file split up into its sections... again, give it couple minutes, because it has to upload the file from you, and then split it, and this is a rather big book (800k), so it takes time. when it has finished, it will display the first section. if you examine the pop-up menu, you will discover something strange. it skips from chapter 21 to chapter 24. also, it ends at chapter 26, which might not seem strange unless you know that this book actually contains _31_ chapters. the problem here is that pg#140 wasn't consistent in following the rule that chapter-headers are preceded by 4 blank lines. you can verify this by looking at pg#140 yourself: > http://www.gutenberg.org/files/140/140.txt indeed, what you will find is that only chapter 1 and chapter 21 have 4 blank lines preceding them. (and chapter 1 is inconsistent too, because it has 5.) my routine was still able to find most of the chapters in spite of this because it required only 3 blank lines. nonetheless, it still missed several chapters. so let's do this. reload the text from project gutenberg: type "doload140" in the search-field and press [enter]. now, instead of typing "dosplit", type "docorrection" in the search-field and press [enter]. this routine will use a different rule for splitting the file into sections. it will look for the word "chapter" at the start of a line. because of these inconsistencies in the p.g. library, it's hard to make rules to handle all the edge cases. it's better to find the inconsistencies and correct them, so the rules we compose can be as simple as possible. especially for fundamental necessities, like finding the sections of the book, we want the rules to be simple... it was because project gutenberg absolutely refused to ensure consistency in its files that i gave up on it. -bowerbird

1 0

Re: time after time
by Morasch＠aol.com 20 Feb '11

20 Feb '11

weren't you going to allow us to load in our own text to the app?

1 0

Re: time after time
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 20 Feb '11

20 Feb '11

new version up at same location: > http://76.74.254.239/~bowerbird/a.fcgi/ proper italics now. font changed from comic sans. em-dashes utilized. curly-doublequotes utilized. found search-terms colorized. some cosmetic changes. most of that stuff was requested by jana. some of you might not know her, because she hasn't posted much here, but she is a hard-working volunteer over at d.p. who helps lots of mac users with their problems. -bowerbird

2 1

Re: time after time
by Travis Siegel 20 Feb '11

20 Feb '11

> >> >>> On Feb 19, 2011, at 5:16 PM, Bowerbird(a)aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> travis said: >>>>> Only your page does not conform >>>>> to the html guidelines for accessibility >>>> >>>> good point, travis. i'm more worried about the >>>> functionality now, but catch me on that later, ok? >>>> >>>> but if you think it could, or should, do something more, >>>> i invite you to contribute some suggestions to that effect. >>>> >>>> Which is exactly what this is. My experience is that if >>>> accessibility isn't designed from the start, often times it's >>>> overlooked entirely, or deemed too expensive/time consuming to >>>> engineer into the product later. I'm not saying labeling buttons >>>> couldn't be done later, but I am saying that if you ignore possible >>>> accessibility issues now, you'll wind up with a product that is (at >>>> best) a pain to use for those who need accessible applications, and >>>> (at worst) a completely useless >>> piece of software, because their screen reader won't work with it, >>> or >>> they can't resize text, or something else that is dead simple to >>> incorporate at the start, but nearly impossible to reverse engineer >>> into the product when it's complete. Just pointing out possible >>> pitfalls at the getgo so you aren't swamped with requests later to >>> "fix" things later that you didn't consider in the beginning. >>> >>>> actually, it's more like a demonstration that z.m.l. format >>>> can be used as a "master" that can churn out other formats, >>>> which is an issue that p.g. and d.p. have been struggling with. >>> >>> Which (I thought) was exactly what xml was supposed to be used for. >>> >>> (not complaining about the use of zml, only pointing out that other >>> options already exist. >> > > >

1 0

Re: time after time
by Travis Siegel 20 Feb '11

20 Feb '11

>>> >>> On Feb 19, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Bowerbird(a)aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> How about real em-dashes instead of double-hyphens? >>>> >>>> h=replaceall(h,"--",chr(209)) >>>> >>>> >>>>> How about curly quotes? >>>> >>>> h=replaceall(h," "+chr(34)," "+chr(210)) >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+chr(34),chr(10)+chr(210)) >>>> >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(34)+" ",chr(211)+" ") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(34)+chr(10),chr(210)+chr(10)) >>>> >>>> Is there really a need to do all that? Not complaining, only >>>> wondering myself. Screen readers don't generally take well to >>>> upper >>>> ascii characters. Sure, they'll (generally) tell what the >>>> characters are, but often times, it changes the pronounciation of >>>> the word, because it tries to incorporate the symbol into the word >>>> it's surrounding. Honestly, double hyphens are fine with me :) >>>> (and, for some reason, the rss specifications forbid such >>>> characters), though I'm not sure why that is, perhaps for widest >>>> compatibility with all rss readers, including those that can >>>> display >>>> text only. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> It doesn't help me much that I've found some text >>>>> when I still have to read through the whole chapter >>>>> to actually find the passage I'm looking for. >>>> >>>> i would say you seem to have forgotten the fact that >>>> you can just use the search function in your browser. >>>> >>>> the app finds a page which contains the search-term, >>>> and the browser tells you where on the page it exists. >>>> it is a bit clumsy, but not as bad as you made it sound. >>>> >>>> >>> Yeah, but it's not difficult to spit out a modified page containing >>> the link to the searched for text if it comes to that, (which, you >>> did >>> say on the next line, so ...) >>> >>>> p.p.s. here is the current text-to-html conversion routine... >>>> >>>> h=session.gc(x) >>>> h=replacelineendings(h,chr(10)) >>>> h=trim(h) >>>> h="<h2>"+h >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+" ") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+chr(10),chr(10)+""+chr(10)) >>>> h=replace(h,chr(10)+""+chr(10),"</h2>"+chr(10)+" ") >>>> h=replaceall(h," "," ") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" >>>> ",chr(10)+"________________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"_______________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"______________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"_____________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"____________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"___________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"__________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"_________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"________") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"_______") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"______") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"_____") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"____") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"___") >>>> h=replaceall(h,chr(10)+" ",chr(10)+"__") >>>> h=topmatter.text+h+chr(10)+chr(10)+"</body></html>" >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Which a simple nl2br would solve nicely if this were php. :) >>> Again, not finding fault, simply pointing out another method. >>> I've never tackled something of this complexity, but perhaps a >>> second >>> app written in php would be a good way to compare and contrast >>> different ways of doing things. >>> Of course, it could wind up being an exercise in futility, but heck, >>> I'm always willing to help, and php is what I know, so ... >> > > >

1 0