On Sat, 9 May 2009, Joshua Hutchinson wrote:
On May 8, 2009, joshua@hutchinson.net wrote:
Yeah, *everybody* I know has a cell phone.
I know exactly zero that have READ a book on a cell phone. Even with high end phones, like iPhones, the screens are not fun to read a whole book on.
Admittedly a very small sample, I presume.
I really don't think current phones will ever be a major eBook platform, just like people's computers aren't major eBook platforms. Sure, people do it, but not a LOT of people.
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks. 1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million. 20 times more than all dedicated eBook readers, not to mention those reading on computers. However, if Josh is REALLY CORRECT, and no one is reading eBooks on cellphones, that is fault of no one but OURSELVES. . . . We should be making it easier on them to do it! Michael
Josh
On May 8, 2009, hart@pglaf.org wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
> Michael S. Hart wrote: > > > However, I will also bet that Kindle sales this year > > will NOT equal 10% of iPhones and their clones. . . . > > > If a body buys an ebook reader you can be pretty confident that she will use > it to read books. And you don't spend $300 if you just read a little: You read > a lot.
"a lot" is still a relative term.
No one seems to expect the average Kindle owner to buy more than a book a month, and even the most wild speculations are based on 3 a month by people who don't say that will actually happen.
If people are going to talk in relative terminology, it doesn't really mean anything in terms of numbers, hard numbers, and if Kindle doesn't sell in numbers, hard numbers, it will continue to be more PR than an actual reality.
> If somebody buys an iPhone (which is basically an inflated iPod) you can be > pretty confident that he will listen to music on it.
I would be even more confident about phone calls.
However, if only 10% of iPhone users read eBooks on their iPhones, that's more than Kindle users.
Apple will sell 10 million iPhones this year and may have sold about that many last year.
Again, I repeat, because no one seems to hear it, WE MUST REACH PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE LIVING!!!!!!!
People are living with cellphones. . .67% of ALL PEOPLE ON THE ENTIRE PLANET HAVE A CELLPHONE.
20% of the world population maybe has computers.
0%, in round numbers, have a Kindle or Sony.
They have to sell 100 million to hit even 1%.
They aren't even TRYING for that kind of market!
The REALITY of these products lies in numbers of how many are sold and used.
The 4.3 billion number of cellphones doesn't even include those that are not in service, but should still make fine eBook readers. . . .
Stop being SUBjective.
Start being OBjective. _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks.
1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million.
Will you stop making up "facts" out of pure thin air?
For all the *research* you have done it could be anywhere between 100% and 0.00000000000000000000000001%.
That's why I use terms such as "let's say", "about," "approximately," and "~". . . . Everyone, except you, seems to realize these ARE approximations. I would say that even the U.N. figure of 4.2 billion for the beginning of this year was an approximation, as are most all the other figures, including the world and US populations. In fact, I would have to say, and so should you, that nearly all the statistics we ever get like this are approximations. So, what exactly IS the point? mh
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Everyone, except you, seems to realize these ARE approximations.
These are not approximations. These are phantasies. At least, learn the tools of the trade: If you have to make up a number, try a bit harder than "1%". You will fool nobody none of the time with a number like that. Next time say: "0.89%" or "12.27 millions". People will take much longer to realize that you just made those up.
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Everyone, except you, seems to realize these ARE approximations.
These are not approximations. These are phantasies.
At least, learn the tools of the trade:
If you have to make up a number, try a bit harder than "1%". You will fool nobody none of the time with a number like that.
Next time say: "0.89%" or "12.27 millions". People will take much longer to realize that you just made those up.
Marcello, do you realize just how foolish you sound? No one here, except possibly you, is trying to fool anyone. However, what you are trying to fool people into is lost in the translation between your irrationality and rationality. The whole idea of "round numbers" and "approximatations" is to make it OBVIOUS that these are not completely accurate-- that they are, indeed just "what ifs," "predictions" and/or "speculative approximations." Do you never wonder that people don't take your ranting and raving seriously? Do you never worry that because you have cried "wolf" over, and over, and over yet again, that when the time comes that you have something serious to say you won't be effective to the degree you would have been without such rantings?
Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here. These figures of yours could NOT be "anywhere between. . . ." Please THINK before your embarrass yourself so extrememly, and apologize to the the list when you are proven wrong. The population of the Earth would have to be astronomical for your latest figure to make any sense, and then only 1 person reading on a cellphone. . . . How can you say such things knowing it reflects on you so? mh On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks.
1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million.
Will you stop making up "facts" out of pure thin air?
For all the *research* you have done it could be anywhere between 100% and 0.00000000000000000000000001%.
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Michael -- I would appreciate it if you would stop harrassing the volunteers of PG / DP and resorting to name calling. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here.
These figures of yours could NOT be "anywhere between. . . ."
Please THINK before your embarrass yourself so extrememly, and apologize to the the list when you are proven wrong.
The population of the Earth would have to be astronomical for your latest figure to make any sense, and then only 1 person reading on a cellphone. . . .
How can you say such things knowing it reflects on you so?
mh
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks.
1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million.
Will you stop making up "facts" out of pure thin air?
For all the *research* you have done it could be anywhere between 100% and 0.00000000000000000000000001%.
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Michael -- I would appreciate it if you would stop harrassing the volunteers of PG / DP and resorting to name calling.
Look in the mirror. Exactly what you have been doing.
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here.
These figures of yours could NOT be "anywhere between. . . ."
Please THINK before your embarrass yourself so extrememly, and apologize to the the list when you are proven wrong.
The population of the Earth would have to be astronomical for your latest figure to make any sense, and then only 1 person reading on a cellphone. . . .
How can you say such things knowing it reflects on you so?
mh
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks.
1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million.
Will you stop making up "facts" out of pure thin air?
For all the *research* you have done it could be anywhere between 100% and 0.00000000000000000000000001%.
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Oh btw, show me where I've been name calling as opposed to these FACTUAL, ACCURATE quotes from yourself: "Marcello, do you realize just how foolish you sound?" "Do you never wonder that people don't take your ranting and raving seriously?" "Do you ever stop to think how silly your comments are going to look in the context of history." I would never resort to name calling of these fine volunteers of PG/DP something you fail to appreciate time and time again. The most I tried to do was provide HISTORICAL CONTEXT of bowerbird from the conversation that was taking place. Thanks!! Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Michael -- I would appreciate it if you would stop harrassing the volunteers of PG / DP and resorting to name calling.
Look in the mirror.
Exactly what you have been doing.
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here.
These figures of yours could NOT be "anywhere between. . . ."
Please THINK before your embarrass yourself so extrememly, and apologize to the the list when you are proven wrong.
The population of the Earth would have to be astronomical for your latest figure to make any sense, and then only 1 person reading on a cellphone. . . .
How can you say such things knowing it reflects on you so?
mh
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks.
1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million.
Will you stop making up "facts" out of pure thin air?
For all the *research* you have done it could be anywhere between
100%
and
0.00000000000000000000000001%.
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Michael -- I would appreciate it if you would stop harrassing the volunteers of PG / DP and resorting to name calling.
Do you really think you can fool the people here with such? Do you really hold them in such low esteem as to think it?
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here.
These figures of yours could NOT be "anywhere between. . . ."
Please THINK before your embarrass yourself so extrememly, and apologize to the the list when you are proven wrong.
The population of the Earth would have to be astronomical for your latest figure to make any sense, and then only 1 person reading on a cellphone. . . .
How can you say such things knowing it reflects on you so?
mh
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks.
1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million.
Will you stop making up "facts" out of pure thin air?
For all the *research* you have done it could be anywhere between 100% and 0.00000000000000000000000001%.
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Trust me Mr. Hart I hold the volunteers of PG/DP in much higher esteem than you have EVER held them in. You can try to muddy the waters of this conversation by trying to slander both myelf and Marcello's names but the volunteers are smarter than that. You talk about history in both replies to myself and Marcello but you forget how history has already looked upon you and will continue to look upon yourself. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Michael -- I would appreciate it if you would stop harrassing the volunteers of PG / DP and resorting to name calling.
Do you really think you can fool the people here with such?
Do you really hold them in such low esteem as to think it?
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here.
These figures of yours could NOT be "anywhere between. . . ."
Please THINK before your embarrass yourself so extrememly, and apologize to the the list when you are proven wrong.
The population of the Earth would have to be astronomical for your latest figure to make any sense, and then only 1 person reading on a cellphone. . . .
How can you say such things knowing it reflects on you so?
mh
On Sat, 9 May 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote:
Michael S. Hart wrote:
Let's say Josh is right, and only 1% of cellphone owners do eBooks.
1% of 4.5 billion is 45 million.
Will you stop making up "facts" out of pure thin air?
For all the *research* you have done it could be anywhere between
100%
and
0.00000000000000000000000001%.
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Yes, Mr. Gruber, you obviously think that by using my own kinds of statements in reverse will convince anyone that has seen the previous context. . .just another grade school tactic. Now. . .after all that. . .how about a real strategy instead of just these short range tactics. How about something that will justify the time and effort spent on reading your comments and responding to them. Until such a time, I reserve the right not to answer at all. mh
Of course you do sir -- attack, then go and hide. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Yes, Mr. Gruber, you obviously think that by using my own kinds of statements in reverse will convince anyone that has seen the previous context. . .just another grade school tactic.
Now. . .after all that. . .how about a real strategy instead of just these short range tactics.
How about something that will justify the time and effort spent on reading your comments and responding to them.
Until such a time, I reserve the right not to answer at all.
mh _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Sun, 10 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Of course you do sir -- attack, then go and hide.
OK, let's make this clear for everyone before ignoring you. You attacked while denying it was an attack, stirring up the old. I pointed out that you were indeed stirring up the old stuff, nothing new in what you have said, then or now. Each thing I say, you just mirror it back as if a schoolboy, saying, "Oh, no, it's YOU who are doing what you have said." There is nothing original in what you said then or now, you could simply be an "Eliza" type program, designed to cut and paste words from some previous message into some supposedly "new" message designed to provoke a response. If you know nothing else about my participation in this list over its various incarnations for 20 years, it has to be obvious that you cannot provoke me. I demonstrate that a person can be rational, responsive and even temperate and moderate in the face of such big trashy fallacious comments, and everyone knows this. Now you know it, too, and you can make as many comments as you like, knowing that I detest censorship even more than I detest what you are saying. You are attacking PEOPLE not ideas. Reply to CONTENT rather than attacking the PEOPLE. Until you come up with something constructive to say it is only in defense of others that I should reply. Everyone here can easily see through your pretenses and see that you just rant that everything YOU do is what I am doing. . .and you expect anyone to BELIEVE that? Oh, how little you think of our readers here. And obviously of yourself, to demean yourself so much. I suggest you stop and think for a while and then come up with something positive to say, for your negativity is not getting you, or us, anywhere. Hoping to thank you soon for your time & consideration Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Yes, Mr. Gruber, you obviously think that by using my own kinds of statements in reverse will convince anyone that has seen the previous context. . .just another grade school tactic.
Now. . .after all that. . .how about a real strategy instead of just these short range tactics.
How about something that will justify the time and effort spent on reading your comments and responding to them.
Until such a time, I reserve the right not to answer at all.
mh _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Sigh. It's like talking to a brick wall which is nothing new with you. First, let me start off by stating I was participating in this conversation and merely brought up the point of bowerbird's statements of past. As a smart person you can understand how contextual history would provide enhanced knowledge of the conversation. Now, you bring up the point of me attacking people. Again I request -- let me know where I have done so. You still continue to attack even in this e-mail and have yet to bring anything to this conversation beyond phantasies as Marcello points out. You can try to keep responding to these e-mails and keep this thread going or you can respect that I sent one e-mail providing history on bowerbird that you immediately attacked and when I requested you stop attacking Marcello you started this whole rant and rave pretending that you are this omnipotent dictator who is standing up for your volunteers. Please go back and re-read this conversation and you will see how history see's you sir. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Of course you do sir -- attack, then go and hide.
OK, let's make this clear for everyone before ignoring you.
You attacked while denying it was an attack, stirring up the old.
I pointed out that you were indeed stirring up the old stuff, nothing new in what you have said, then or now.
Each thing I say, you just mirror it back as if a schoolboy, saying, "Oh, no, it's YOU who are doing what you have said."
There is nothing original in what you said then or now, you could simply be an "Eliza" type program, designed to cut and paste words from some previous message into some supposedly "new" message designed to provoke a response.
If you know nothing else about my participation in this list over its various incarnations for 20 years, it has to be obvious that you cannot provoke me.
I demonstrate that a person can be rational, responsive and even temperate and moderate in the face of such big trashy fallacious comments, and everyone knows this.
Now you know it, too, and you can make as many comments as you like, knowing that I detest censorship even more than I detest what you are saying.
You are attacking PEOPLE not ideas.
Reply to CONTENT rather than attacking the PEOPLE.
Until you come up with something constructive to say it is only in defense of others that I should reply.
Everyone here can easily see through your pretenses and see that you just rant that everything YOU do is what I am doing. . .and you expect anyone to BELIEVE that?
Oh, how little you think of our readers here.
And obviously of yourself, to demean yourself so much.
I suggest you stop and think for a while and then come up with something positive to say, for your negativity is not getting you, or us, anywhere.
Hoping to thank you soon for your time & consideration
Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Yes, Mr. Gruber, you obviously think that by using my own kinds of statements in reverse will convince anyone that has seen the previous context. . .just another grade school tactic.
Now. . .after all that. . .how about a real strategy instead of just these short range tactics.
How about something that will justify the time and effort spent on reading your comments and responding to them.
Until such a time, I reserve the right not to answer at all.
mh _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Sun, 10 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Sigh. It's like talking to a brick wall which is nothing new with you.
See, even more evidence that you are a program, you are just repeating what I just said.
First, let me start off by stating I was participating in this conversation and merely brought up the point of bowerbird's statements of past.
Then bring them up. . .
As a smart person you can understand how contextual history would provide enhanced knowledge of the conversation.
. . .in the context you so desperately say is required.
Now, you bring up the point of me attacking people. Again I request -- let me know where I have done so. You still continue to attack even in this e-mail and have yet to bring anything to this conversation beyond phantasies as Marcello points out.
Again, you are simply mirroring my own comments. Come up with your own if you want any attention, to yourself, or to the points you SAY you should be working with, but are actually avoiding. I couldn't agree with you more that bowerbird is often obnoxious and abrasive, but you should see that you should do something better here. . . . Otherwise you are just getting down into the mud where some people obviously enjoy it.
You can try to keep responding to these e-mails and keep this thread going or you can respect that I sent one e-mail providing history on bowerbird
What history. . . ? What context. . . ? Just in case people have forgotten the origins of the words you are using in your messages, in your Eliza type replies, here are the actual words, in context, where they originate and proper credit given to the originator: Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 16:00:13 -0400 From: Joseph R. Gruber <joseph.gruber@gmail.com> Reply-To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: !@! Re: Re: larger-format kindle Which lies are you referring to? Yours? Like always I'll be waiting here with baited breathed for that application to show up. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com [www.josephgruber.com] On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:29 PM, <Bowerbird@aol.com> wrote: joseph gruber said: > please realize that these are wild fantasies of his > and you'll never see such an application materalize you guys never learn, do you? even when your credibility is completely shredded, you keep telling your lies like you really believe 'em. -bowerbird and where is this "history" and "context" you SO desire? I see YOUR words here, you attacking, no actual context, no actual history. This should be enough for anyone for the purposes of calling your bluffs. Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 07:45:39 -0400 From: Joseph R. Gruber <joseph.gruber@gmail.com> Reply-To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: !@! Re: Re: larger-format kindle Not to stir up an old pot but for those who are not use to bowerbird please realize that these are wild fantasies of his and you'll never see such an application materalize. So now worry about the PG trademark or anything else he is spewing. Heck, I'm still waiting for his version of DP that he was going to build that was SOOOO much better. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com [www.josephgruber.com]
that you immediately attacked and when I requested you stop attacking Marcello you started this whole rant
No, it is _I_ who asked you to stop in the following message: Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:15:52 -0800 (AKDT) From: Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Gruber Re: Re: !@! Re: Re: larger-format kindle Yes, you ARE trying "to stir up an old pot" and I would appreciate it if you stop. Thanks!!! Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg and who asked Marcello to stop in this message: Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:24:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Fwd: Re: Re: larger-format kindle Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here. . . . .
rant and rave
Yes, you continue, Eliza-like, to prove my point, yet again, by using my own words and position as if they were yours.
pretending that you are this omnipotent dictator who is standing up for your volunteers.
That is the biggest argument used AGAINST my positions, that I refuse the powers of censorship and to use power I don't want to have. One again you have said "TAILS!" when all see "HEADS!" It is so obvious that this exchange has become a boring one in that you are too obviously replying as Eliza.
Please go back and re-read this conversation and you will see how history see's you sir.
As you can see, I have already beaten you to the punch, already did that. . .and the sound you hear is a defeat of all of your attempts. . ."The Sounds of Silence." ;=) Nothing further need be said, you have done so well at defeating your own stated purpose. You remind me of "The Terrible Trivium" when Rhyme and Reason have fled. . . . In one of the books listed below. . . . Thanks!!! Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg Inventor of ebooks Recommended Books: Dandelion Wine, by Ray Bradbury: For The Right Brain Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson: To Understand The Internet The Phantom Tollbooth, by Norton Juster: Lesson of Life. . .
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Of course you do sir -- attack, then go and hide.
OK, let's make this clear for everyone before ignoring you.
You attacked while denying it was an attack, stirring up the old.
I pointed out that you were indeed stirring up the old stuff, nothing new in what you have said, then or now.
Each thing I say, you just mirror it back as if a schoolboy, saying, "Oh, no, it's YOU who are doing what you have said."
There is nothing original in what you said then or now, you could simply be an "Eliza" type program, designed to cut and paste words from some previous message into some supposedly "new" message designed to provoke a response.
If you know nothing else about my participation in this list over its various incarnations for 20 years, it has to be obvious that you cannot provoke me.
I demonstrate that a person can be rational, responsive and even temperate and moderate in the face of such big trashy fallacious comments, and everyone knows this.
Now you know it, too, and you can make as many comments as you like, knowing that I detest censorship even more than I detest what you are saying.
You are attacking PEOPLE not ideas.
Reply to CONTENT rather than attacking the PEOPLE.
Until you come up with something constructive to say it is only in defense of others that I should reply.
Everyone here can easily see through your pretenses and see that you just rant that everything YOU do is what I am doing. . .and you expect anyone to BELIEVE that?
Oh, how little you think of our readers here.
And obviously of yourself, to demean yourself so much.
I suggest you stop and think for a while and then come up with something positive to say, for your negativity is not getting you, or us, anywhere.
Hoping to thank you soon for your time & consideration
Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
Yes, Mr. Gruber, you obviously think that by using my own kinds of statements in reverse will convince anyone that has seen the previous context. . .just another grade school tactic.
Now. . .after all that. . .how about a real strategy instead of just these short range tactics.
How about something that will justify the time and effort spent on reading your comments and responding to them.
Until such a time, I reserve the right not to answer at all.
mh _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Michael -- you make me laugh. You so obviously want to have the last word you pretend that my own distinct and unique words are yours. Are you claiming plagarism?!? ROFL!! Don't worry as history will have the last laugh when they see your failed attempts. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Sigh. It's like talking to a brick wall which is nothing new with you.
See, even more evidence that you are a program, you are just repeating what I just said.
First, let me start off by stating I was participating in this conversation and merely brought up the point of bowerbird's statements of past.
Then bring them up. . .
As a smart person you can understand how contextual history would provide enhanced knowledge of the conversation.
. . .in the context you so desperately say is required.
Now, you bring up the point of me attacking people. Again I request -- let me know where I have done so. You still continue to attack even in this e-mail and have yet to bring anything to this conversation beyond phantasies as Marcello points out.
Again, you are simply mirroring my own comments.
Come up with your own if you want any attention, to yourself, or to the points you SAY you should be working with, but are actually avoiding.
I couldn't agree with you more that bowerbird is often obnoxious and abrasive, but you should see that you should do something better here. . . .
Otherwise you are just getting down into the mud where some people obviously enjoy it.
You can try to keep responding to these e-mails and keep this thread going or you can respect that I sent one e-mail providing history on bowerbird
What history. . . ?
What context. . . ?
Just in case people have forgotten the origins of the words you are using in your messages, in your Eliza type replies, here are the actual words, in context, where they originate and proper credit given to the originator:
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 16:00:13 -0400 From: Joseph R. Gruber <joseph.gruber@gmail.com> Reply-To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: !@! Re: Re: larger-format kindle
Which lies are you referring to? Yours? Like always I'll be waiting here with baited breathed for that application to show up.
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com [www.josephgruber.com]
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:29 PM, <Bowerbird@aol.com> wrote: joseph gruber said: > please realize that these are wild fantasies of his > and you'll never see such an application materalize
you guys never learn, do you?
even when your credibility is completely shredded, you keep telling your lies like you really believe 'em.
-bowerbird
and where is this "history" and "context" you SO desire?
I see YOUR words here, you attacking, no actual context, no actual history. This should be enough for anyone for the purposes of calling your bluffs.
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 07:45:39 -0400 From: Joseph R. Gruber <joseph.gruber@gmail.com> Reply-To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: !@! Re: Re: larger-format kindle
Not to stir up an old pot but for those who are not use to bowerbird please realize that these are wild fantasies of his and you'll never see such an application materalize. So now worry about the PG trademark or anything else he is spewing. Heck, I'm still waiting for his version of DP that he was going to build that was SOOOO much better.
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com [www.josephgruber.com]
that you immediately attacked and when I requested you stop attacking Marcello you started this whole rant
No, it is _I_ who asked you to stop in the following message:
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:15:52 -0800 (AKDT) From: Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Gruber Re: Re: !@! Re: Re: larger-format kindle
Yes, you ARE trying "to stir up an old pot" and I would appreciate it if you stop.
Thanks!!!
Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg
and who asked Marcello to stop in this message:
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:24:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion <gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org> Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Fwd: Re: Re: larger-format kindle
Marcello, once again I request you stop being so silly here.
. . . .
rant and rave
Yes, you continue, Eliza-like, to prove my point, yet again, by using my own words and position as if they were yours.
pretending that you are this omnipotent dictator who is standing up for your volunteers.
That is the biggest argument used AGAINST my positions, that I refuse the powers of censorship and to use power I don't want to have.
One again you have said "TAILS!" when all see "HEADS!"
It is so obvious that this exchange has become a boring one in that you are too obviously replying as Eliza.
Please go back and re-read this conversation and you will see how history see's you sir.
As you can see, I have already beaten you to the punch, already did that. . .and the sound you hear is a defeat of all of your attempts. . ."The Sounds of Silence."
;=)
Nothing further need be said, you have done so well at defeating your own stated purpose.
You remind me of "The Terrible Trivium" when Rhyme and Reason have fled. . . .
In one of the books listed below. . . .
Thanks!!!
Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg Inventor of ebooks
Recommended Books:
Dandelion Wine, by Ray Bradbury: For The Right Brain Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson: To Understand The Internet The Phantom Tollbooth, by Norton Juster: Lesson of Life. . .
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2009, Joseph R. Gruber wrote:
Of course you do sir -- attack, then go and hide.
OK, let's make this clear for everyone before ignoring you.
You attacked while denying it was an attack, stirring up the old.
I pointed out that you were indeed stirring up the old stuff, nothing new in what you have said, then or now.
Each thing I say, you just mirror it back as if a schoolboy, saying, "Oh, no, it's YOU who are doing what you have said."
There is nothing original in what you said then or now, you could simply be an "Eliza" type program, designed to cut and paste words from some previous message into some supposedly "new" message designed to provoke a response.
If you know nothing else about my participation in this list over its various incarnations for 20 years, it has to be obvious that you cannot provoke me.
I demonstrate that a person can be rational, responsive and even temperate and moderate in the face of such big trashy fallacious comments, and everyone knows this.
Now you know it, too, and you can make as many comments as you like, knowing that I detest censorship even more than I detest what you are saying.
You are attacking PEOPLE not ideas.
Reply to CONTENT rather than attacking the PEOPLE.
Until you come up with something constructive to say it is only in defense of others that I should reply.
Everyone here can easily see through your pretenses and see that you just rant that everything YOU do is what I am doing. . .and you expect anyone to BELIEVE that?
Oh, how little you think of our readers here.
And obviously of yourself, to demean yourself so much.
I suggest you stop and think for a while and then come up with something positive to say, for your negativity is not getting you, or us, anywhere.
Hoping to thank you soon for your time & consideration
Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg
Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Michael S. Hart <hart@pglaf.org>
wrote:
Yes, Mr. Gruber, you obviously think that by using my own kinds of statements in reverse will convince anyone that has seen the previous context. . .just another grade school tactic.
Now. . .after all that. . .how about a real strategy instead of just these short range tactics.
How about something that will justify the time and effort spent on reading your comments and responding to them.
Until such a time, I reserve the right not to answer at all.
mh _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Would you two mind taking this conversation off-list? Thanks! -R C On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Joseph R. Gruber <joseph.gruber@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael -- you make me laugh. You so obviously want to have the last word you pretend that my own distinct and unique words are yours. Are you claiming plagarism?!? ROFL!! Don't worry as history will have the last laugh when they see your failed attempts. Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com http://www.josephgruber.com
Fellow listers, some of you anyway: Not enough already, but please, please, too much long ago. I don't (very) much mind the occasional snap at each other, or even a bit of mild needling now and then, but when it gets so that I have to WADE through my inbox to find the minority of messages that actually matter a damn to anyone but the protagonists, I feel justified in a protesting grizzle or so. Please, do not feel called upon to respond either to me or to each other with deathless, deadly repartee, unless it happens to include something actually useful to at least a large minority of the audience. A bit of silence would be gowd enow for a' that. Of course your bandwidth consumption on private channels would attract fewer admirers, but far more heartfelt gratitude. Happy Sunday everybody! Jon
participants (6)
-
Jon Richfield -
Joseph R. Gruber -
Joshua Hutchinson -
Marcello Perathoner -
Michael S. Hart -
Robert Cicconetti