That level has been reached again for some days (BB) - I'm aware (for sometime already) that a number of people with valuable opinions) don't take the trouble anymore to view this mailing list - can't blame them... -- Marc FreeLiterature.org <http://www.freeliterature.org>
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Marc D'Hooghe <marcdh@freeliterature.org> wrote:
That level has been reached again for some days (BB) - I'm aware (for sometime already) that a number of people with valuable opinions) don't take the trouble anymore to view this mailing list - can't blame them...
I have him filtered out, but I still get the backwash in the form of other people quoting him. He was banned from DP (the only person ever banned!) I wish someone would have the courage to remove him here. -- Karen Lofstrom
Hi Karen, I will admit that BBs language is to say sometimes overly flowery. Yet, he has in the last year given very good contributions to the list. He was even for a time practiculy the only one keeping this list going. Furthermore, he has collaborated with others. As a matter help them more than I have seen anyone else here on the list. You can not know this, because you have him filtered out. If one takes the time to filter out the language, one can find a wealth of knowledge. Some time back I was think of doing other to a DP list, but I was so personally insulted that I refrained. I, also got the feeling that I would actually be banned there, too. Just recently, someone else here even implied I views or suggestion were Nazi-like. let go ban him. There is a saying: "if you can not stand the heat, do not become a cook" (unknown chef cook). I see no difference between BB and those that use a refined language to be "mean". Those using a refined language are even worst! The hide! bb is out front. A simply analyze will show that BB post have not been that abundant lately. I could give you at least two name of others that are getting on my nerves, that make the recent discussions more than tedious. If those from DP take other this list and start imposing censorship then this list is lost as well as PG. It is sad to see that people do not pay intension to international news, otherwise one can see what happens when the rights of free speech is ignored. regards Keith. Am 07.02.2012 um 07:21 schrieb Karen Lofstrom:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Marc D'Hooghe <marcdh@freeliterature.org> wrote:
That level has been reached again for some days (BB) - I'm aware (for sometime already) that a number of people with valuable opinions) don't take the trouble anymore to view this mailing list - can't blame them...
I have him filtered out, but I still get the backwash in the form of other people quoting him.
He was banned from DP (the only person ever banned!) I wish someone would have the courage to remove him here.
-- Karen Lofstrom _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
Hear! Hear! I say again, hear! Hear! I applaud the sentiments expressed by Mr Keith J. Schultz. I wish people would resist the personal attack language against others, whatever the provocation. It is more demeaning and degrading to the attacker than the victim, but is extremely ugly to witness as a bystander. Rather in the way I would avoid a public place where offensive language or bullying is commonplace, so I would tend to avoid a newsgroup/mailing list. Surely, the right to free speech does not include the right to use bullying and offensive language nor to incite others to use such language. This list CAN be a very valuable and technical forum giving many insights into the challenges of DP and PG work; please let's get back to what matters: constructive discussion on subject, with patience for those less experienced and a willingness to agree to disagree where appropriate. Roger On 7 February 2012 09:11, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de> wrote:
Hi Karen,
I will admit that BBs language is to say sometimes overly flowery.
Yet, he has in the last year given very good contributions to the list. He was even for a time practiculy the only one keeping this list going. Furthermore, he has collaborated with others. As a matter help them more than I have seen anyone else here on the list.
You can not know this, because you have him filtered out.
If one takes the time to filter out the language, one can find a wealth of knowledge.
Some time back I was think of doing other to a DP list, but I was so personally insulted that I refrained. I, also got the feeling that I would actually be banned there, too.
Just recently, someone else here even implied I views or suggestion were Nazi-like. let go ban him.
There is a saying: "if you can not stand the heat, do not become a cook" (unknown chef cook).
I see no difference between BB and those that use a refined language to be "mean". Those using a refined language are even worst! The hide! bb is out front.
A simply analyze will show that BB post have not been that abundant lately.
I could give you at least two name of others that are getting on my nerves, that make the recent discussions more than tedious.
If those from DP take other this list and start imposing censorship then this list is lost as well as PG.
It is sad to see that people do not pay intension to international news, otherwise one can see what happens when the rights of free speech is ignored.
regards Keith.
Am 07.02.2012 um 07:21 schrieb Karen Lofstrom:
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Marc D'Hooghe <marcdh@freeliterature.org> wrote:
That level has been reached again for some days (BB) - I'm aware (for sometime already) that a number of people with valuable opinions) don't take the trouble anymore to view this mailing list - can't blame them...
I have him filtered out, but I still get the backwash in the form of other people quoting him.
He was banned from DP (the only person ever banned!) I wish someone would have the courage to remove him here.
-- Karen Lofstrom _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
_______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:11 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de> wrote:
He was even for a time practiculy the only one keeping this list going.
It turns out if you drive everyone away, you too can be the only keeping the list going.
There is a saying: "if you can not stand the heat, do not become a cook" (unknown chef cook).
And then there was a wave of botulism in that village, because there were no cooks. And other villages, who had discovered how to make ovens you didn't have to stand inside, shook their head. If you want people to become cooks, then don't make artificial barriers to that.
It is sad to see that people do not pay intension to international news, otherwise one can see what happens when the rights of free speech is ignored.
So does your governing body let the public wonder around and yell whatever they want while they're trying to make laws? There's a big difference between letting people publish what they want, and forcing every forum to include everyone. -- Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero.
That level has been reached again for some days (BB) - I'm aware (for sometime already) that a number of people with valuable opinions) don't take the trouble anymore to view this mailing list - can't blame them...
I have him filtered out, but I still get the backwash in the form of other people quoting him.
He was banned from DP (the only person ever banned!) I wish someone would have the courage to remove him here.
-- Karen Lofstrom
"Courage" is an interesting choice of words. How did you come by it? Normally one doesn't associate an exercise of superior power over another person as "courageous". There may be other virtues that could be invoked, like "expeditious", or "popular", but "courageous" is more difficult for me. At dp, I can't think of any negative consequences that accrued to banning bb, nor were any anticipated. If any justification can be asserted, I think it would be more in the line of "exercise of the will of the majority." Which we might consider a virtue, I suppose. But Courage? Unless I suppose we care to attribute to Michael Hart an unusual ability to enforce his legacy....
Well, I'm the one usually being the brunt of the extreme personal name-calling. I suggest simply putting a kill-file on people who you can't stand. But, part of the problem on this forum is there are a bunch of people with deeply held views, and deeply disparate views, who cannot tolerate people expressing views other than their own. Suggest among a group of volunteers who cannot agree upon "how to get the job done" the answer is: "the volunteer *actually* doing the work gets to decide how the job is done, as long as the job gets done." Again, *my* position is that the things going "wrong" at DP/PG are pretty small, and can be / should be easily addressed, and are in no way shape or form an excuse to completely rework things at DP or PG. Rather, what should be permitted is a way to fix those small things that are going wrong, just as currently it is possible to fix scannos which are found. Small defects should require small repairs. When I get a flat tire I do not go out and buy a new car. People who say a flat tire requires buying a new car are in the business of selling new cars. What I am seeing develop at PG is a common scenario at non-profits: Everybody is an "expert" on how to dig a ditch, but no one wants to man the shovel. Got an idea for a better mousetrap? Go build it, and use it to create a half-dozen brand new books for PG/DP, make sure your results are beautiful to read on a variety of different machines, put your tools in a public place with explicit licenses permitting use and copy, and *then* start talking about how much more productive your approach is.
On Mon, February 6, 2012 11:21 pm, Karen Lofstrom wrote:
He was banned from DP (the only person ever banned!) I wish someone would have the courage to remove him here.
Enough already. It wouldn't take courage to ban him (although it /would/ require enhanced moderation), it takes courage /not/ to. BowerBird is the Newt Gingrich of Project Gutenberg. Sometimes he says things that are worthwhile, even though he is generally abrasive, condescending, and self-aggrandizing. Life is full of these kinds of individuals (maybe not that many that evidence the pathology quite to this extent, but still). I don't suggest that people who are unhappy with this go elsewhere; I suggest that they learn a little tolerance and discrimination. On the internet there is no right, nor even any expectation, to be free from offense or abuse. Deal with it.
participants (8)
-
David Starner -
don kretz -
Jim Adcock -
Karen Lofstrom -
Keith J. Schultz -
Lee Passey -
Marc D'Hooghe -
Roger Lee