August 2005 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

reinventing the wheel
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 29 Aug '05

29 Aug '05

lee said: > The µBook ebook reader can do that right now > (PG simplified text looks really good in µBook). so µbook has upgraded the project gutenberg e-texts from "impoverished text format" to "p.g. simplified text"? that's good news to hear. imagine what a more powerful viewer-app might do for the reputation of these e-texts... > (PG simplified text looks really good in µBook). > I can't see why this particular wheel needs re-inventing. you know, lee, over the many years, i've heard you say a lot of smart things. and a few dumb things too. this statement has to be one of your dumbest ever... you point me -- a mac user -- to a pc-only program, and then suggest that by writing the same type of app, i am "reinventing the wheel"? what a silly thing to say. but let me reassure you that i am not stopping there at the viewer-program. no sir, that's only the first step... if you take a look at my viewer now, it already contains several features that give the reader a sense of mastery over the document, like a multiple-term search routine. and i'll extend those features greatly, offering things like automatic generation of a concordance and kwic feature. none of these features is available in any other viewer. but as i said, i'm not stopping there... i've gone to the next step -- writing the authoring-tool -- a number of times. that's the more important program; until someone creates e-books, readers can't read 'em. and tomorrow, i will upload "banana-cream", a demo that shows how a reader might incorporate on-line scans into their e-book experience. i expect people who know how to digitize paper-books will realize this app can help them too. but i have gone way past that step as well. my research has examined the question of how to put many thousands of e-books on a person's machine in a manageable way which maximizes the potential obtained from all of them. (this arena includes realms like searching and interlinking.) i have also studied the best way to form and use a "database" of the various things that a person has read on their computer (not just e-books, but e-mail and websites and what have you), so you can quickly and easily pull out anything you have read, even if you don't remember when you read it, or its source... this power to recall anything you've ever read (provided that you read it on your computer) will be a revolutionary spark... so i'm not "reinventing the wheel". i'm reinventing 18 of 'em, and putting them under a big rig, so i can roll down the road... i'm not standing still, lee. you shouldn't either... -bowerbird

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how can you
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 28 Aug '05

28 Aug '05

aaron said: > It's too bad really. You've got some half-decent ideas here. > However, I can promise you they will never be embraced > by anyone if you don't radically alter your social conduct. how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat? -bowerbird

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re: [gutvol-d] Re: unluckily for us (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 30)
by Aaron Cannon 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 07:12 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote: >no. again, your problems with inference manifest. > >the point is that mr. noring should be _embarassed_ to >subject michael hart to moderation on an e-book listserve. Ok. I am sure we can all use our imaginations for this one and make your interpretation fit. >michael hart pioneered e-books. he should be allowed to >speak, to speak freely, and to speak as much as he wants. > >that's _my_ opinion anyway. and i feel strongly enough >about it that i don't care to speak to jon here, thank you. > >i am not telling you that _you_ can't speak to him here, >or that _he_ can't speak here. i'm just saying that i don't >care to speak to him, so i will be ignoring any questions >that he asks in his posts. but again, if _you_ want the >answers to any of his questions, just ask me yourself. Again, I am curious, but I will not ask you. I'm not interested in playing the Bowerbird Game. If you do not wish to answer serious questions about your project, why should I or anyone else care. It's like if you have two people X and Y, and person x designs Z. X: "You should really use Z. I designed it and it will solve all of the problems that you have." Y: "Oh really X? If I feed A and B to Z, will I get output C?" x: "I'm sorry I can't answer that question because you called me X and not Mr. X." Y: "Yeah, but what about D and E and F? How does project Z handle those?" X: "hmm hmm hmm lalala not listening; not listening." Y: Fine, I'll use project W instead. It's been around longer, has better documentation, and more extensive testing." X: "You're just trying to make me look bad! Project W is stupid and everyone knows it. You are nothing but a vocal minority. I am the only one who knows what everyone else wants." It's not a perfect analogy, but pretty dang close. > > Awe yes. Please provide me with a link > > so I can download these revolutionary applications. > >well, i've given it numerous times already, >but i'm happy to give it to you again, aaron. > >join the zml_talk listserve at yahoogroups, by sending >an e-mail to zml_talk-subscribe(a)yahoogroups.com >and you will find the zml-viewer in the "files" section. That's not a link. A link generally, but not always begins with http://.... Do you keep it locked up under the files section to control it's distribution? Doesn't exactly sound like a distribution model that Project Gutenberg will be likely to embrace. Since you've worked on so many ebook related apps in the past, it doesn't seem like it would be much of a challenge for you to find somewhere to host the files. >banana-cream will be available for download next week. >or, if you'd like to see it sooner, just request it backchannel. No thanks. I did however take a look at the give program. It could use some redesign as far as the pull down menus are concerned. I've never seen so many in my life. Also, I can tell you for sure that it is not very accessible for a blind user. By not very accessible, I mean that I would never read a book in it, although I could read a page if I had to. It's too bad really. You've got some half-decent ideas here. However, I can promise you they will never be embraced by anyone if you don't radically alter your social conduct. >if you have any more questions, save them for next week. >as i've said, it's rude to flood the listserve on the weekend. Oh that's classic stuff! That's right Bowerbird, we wouldn't want to flood the listserve. Could this be simply another means of avoiding difficult questions? Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona(a)fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona(a)hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDELuQI7J99hVZuJcRAvrxAKCeV0w/19oL0c8uHAXqp7B/KcoxNgCffF86 yneUAn5plrhQWFe762xvKWc= =uLAi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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re: [gutvol-d] Re: unluckily for us (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 30)
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

aaron said: > The purpose of this rhetorical question was > clearly to point out that Mr. Noring is some how > unqualified to speak on the matter no. again, your problems with inference manifest. the point is that mr. noring should be _embarassed_ to subject michael hart to moderation on an e-book listserve. michael hart pioneered e-books. he should be allowed to speak, to speak freely, and to speak as much as he wants. that's _my_ opinion anyway. and i feel strongly enough about it that i don't care to speak to jon here, thank you. i am not telling you that _you_ can't speak to him here, or that _he_ can't speak here. i'm just saying that i don't care to speak to him, so i will be ignoring any questions that he asks in his posts. but again, if _you_ want the answers to any of his questions, just ask me yourself. > Awe yes. Please provide me with a link > so I can download these revolutionary applications. well, i've given it numerous times already, but i'm happy to give it to you again, aaron. join the zml_talk listserve at yahoogroups, by sending an e-mail to zml_talk-subscribe(a)yahoogroups.com and you will find the zml-viewer in the "files" section. banana-cream will be available for download next week. or, if you'd like to see it sooner, just request it backchannel. if you have any more questions, save them for next week. as i've said, it's rude to flood the listserve on the weekend. -bowerbird

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Greg, please read
by Aaron Cannon 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

Please check your spam folder for a message from mdelato(a)gmail.com. She one of our CD/DVD volunteers who has been attempting to reach you without success. Thanks and sorry everyone else for the interruption. Sincerely Aaron Cannon -- E-mail: cannona(a)fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona(a)hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.)

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re: [gutvol-d] Re: unluckily for us (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 30)
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

aaron said: > Awe, I see. So in order to be able to criticize anything, > you must be the founder? um, no. does that gem really represent your capacity for inference? if so, then i'll be happy to explain it to you: anyone should be "able to criticize anything", as you put it; and the very act of censorship (or "moderation", as it is sometimes called), puts a chill on that. furthermore, if _anyone_ is to be "given a pass" and allowed to speak freely, it should be the _leading_pioneer_... for _michael_hart_ to be "moderated" on a listserve for _electronic_books_ is laughable. it is as humorous as sprinkling sugar on pizza. > I'd rather not play the Bowerbird game. > Kannons and Katapults is much more enjoyable thanks. > You have the questions. You will either answer them > or you won't. Should you choose the latter, > it certainly won't have been the first time. you don't really want the answers to the questions, because you'd rather say i don't have the answers. you don't have any intellectual curiosity about this, you just have a desire to try and make me look bad. and you'd rather say my programs are vaporware than to simply go and download them, wouldn't you? i'm just not clear how this helps your _integrity_, aaron. even if you were to ignore how they make you look, don't the lies coming out of your mouth _bother_ you? > That's ok. I'll let you get back to your work. > Careful, your pudding is burning. Of course > that's only to be expected when you > cook it for 2+ years. no problem. new batch up soon. -bowerbird

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speaking of pudding, banana-cream is ready
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

speaking of pudding, "banana-cream" is ready. greg asked, a while back, for demonstrations of how online page-scans might be incorporated into the e-book experience. this is one entry. i used the text of jon noring's "my antonia" version, which can be obtained from the openreader site: http://www.openreader.org/myantonia the text is presented to the end-user, page by page. the end-user can then just click a button to download the scan-image for a specific page to be displayed too. (for instance, if they wanted to check a possible error.) the scan-image is retrieved from the openreader site. when an image is downloaded, it's stored on your machine, and any further accesses are made using that local copy... the option is also given to download _all_ of the images in a batch, in either a foreground or background process. that's what a pre-processor or post-processor from d.p. might do, so they could work throughout the entire book. an end-user might also choose to download all the scans, if they wanted to see how the physical book itself looked. (to do this another way for the demo, download the .zip file of all the image-scans from the openreader site to begin with.) i also threw in text-to-speech, because it was easy, so the computer can read you the text as you view the scan. text-to-speech _does_ work on newer p.c. systems, but might not work automatically on older ones, i'm not sure. of course, macs have had text-to-speech for over a decade. this is a demo-app, so it's not polished, and has no docs. if people like it, and ask me to polish it up, i certainly can. but i anticipate that the reaction from here will be silence. sorry to spoil your "bowerbird makes vaporware" fun... banana-cream currently runs on the mac, from os8.1 up, including o.s.x., and on windows, from windows98 up. if there are any linux users who want to alpha-test for me, speak up. i'll be uploading banana-cream to the web next week; but anyone who would like to use it before then can backchannel me for a preview copy... screenshots: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/bc--1.jpg > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/bc-03.jpg > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/bc003.jpg (i put one error on each scan, for "where's waldo" fans.) -bowerbird

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Re: PT1 Weekly Project Gutenberg Newsletter
by Michael Dyck 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

Michael Hart wrote: > > Weekly_August_24.txt > > >>> !!!17,000+ eBooks at http://www.gutenberg.org as of today!!! <<< As I understand it (from part 2 of the newsletter), yesterday's count of 17020 includes 476 from PG-Australia that (for copyright reasons) are not available from http://www.gutenberg.org (nor are they in its catalog). If that's the case, then it's somewhat misleading to say "17,000+ eBooks at http://www.gutenberg.org". Instead, "17,000+ eBooks available from Project Gutenberg" would be sufficiently vague to cover both PG-US and PG-Aus. -Michael Dyck

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re: [gutvol-d] Re: unluckily for us (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 30)
by Morasch＠aol.com 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

aaron said: > The next time someone asks difficult questions > which I don't wish to or can't answer, I'll simply > find something which that person has done that > I don't agree with, and refuse to talk to them > on the basis of moral superiority. i wasn't claiming any "moral superiority". i just think that to force the father of e-books to undergo "moderation" on an e-book listserve is too galling to let pass by without a reaction... where was noring back in 1971, when michael was typing in the declaration of independence? > "Most people" being code for Bowerbird? actually, i don't mind the so-called "flamewars" a bit. in case you haven't noticed. in fact, some people have accused me of being the _cause_ of them, haven't they? so if you want to continue them, it's quite alright by me. i buy the fire-retardant foam they use at the airports and get a cheap rate because i buy it by the tanker-truckload, so these little dances around the campfire are fun for me. and aaron, if you really think jon has asked me some "difficult questions" that "i don't wish to" or even "can't" answer, you should step right up and ask them again. because if you ask them to me, i _will_ answer them... and i assure you i can answer the questions jon asked, and that they are actually quite simplistic, not difficult, and furthermore, that i would be positively _delighted_ to talk at great length about z.m.l. here on this listserve. (but, like i said, i think most people on this listserve -- and by that, i mean most people on this listserve -- wish these bowerbird/noring threads would go poof. but again, if you disagree, let me know, and i'll post.) i don't think it'd match the density of the x.m.l. threads, because z.m.l. dispenses with unnecessary complexity, but i could certainly give my best effort. and i _am_ quite capable of going on and on, all by my lonesome, as you also must have noticed by now. so, by all means, feel free to pull my string and i will post and post and post. you might also want to know, though, that i will shortly start to upload demo programs for your amusement and edification -- it's pudding time, kids! -- so if you would rather deal in reality (for a change) instead of all this speculative, high-falutin' vapor-ware noise, you might want to wait-and-see for a day-or-two... -bowerbird

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TEI 'floating' divs
by Marcello Perathoner 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

If anybody wants to learn more about the "<p> followed by <div> is invalid" kind of problem just subscribe the TEI-L list. They are at it again ... To subscribe to the TEI-L mailing-list: http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=tei-l&A=1 -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster(a)gutenberg.org

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