August 2005 - gutvol-d - lists.pglaf.org

Re: [gutvol-d] ANNOUNCEMENT: XML has hit the PG archives! (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 26)
by Lee Passey 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

Marcello Perathoner <marcello(a)perathoner.de> wrote: > Lee Passey wrote: > >> On the other hand, I don't see how Mr. Hutchinson's second example >> could validate if the first does not, particularly given the fact >> that DTD's are not structured in such a way to permit a validator to >> make that kind of a judgment ("if a <div> contains a <div> it must be >> the last element of the first <div>" or "if a <div> contains a <div> >> it may be preceded by a <p>, but not followed by one"). > > > This simple declaration does exactly that: > > <!ELEMENT div (p*, div*)> > > "A div may contain zero or more p followed by zero or more div." Well, I carefully decomposed the TEI DTD and discovered that you're absolutely right (but you knew that already, didn't you :-)). As I understand it, a <div> can contain just about any other element, but once you include another <div> you can't include anything else (almost). What the hell were they thinking? I don't see anything in the English spec that would have led me to this conclusion, and I can't think of any rationale why it should be this way. Is it possible that the DTD has incorrectly implemented the TEI spec? Or did the authors really intend this inane result? I have to admit, this requirement (and the fact that <div> is not allowed inside <p>) really makes me have second thoughts about the usefulness of TEI as an encoding (because it hinders you from making a level-one, incomplete, encoding). I would really like to know what the rationale for this rule is. >> In this particular case, I suspect a bug in the validator program. I >> mean, writing validators is hard, and I am aware of at least one bug >> in the W3C's online HTML validator. > > > No bug. The TEI dtd is broken as designed. Well, at least I was able to figure out that _something_ was broken.

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re: the proof is in the tarts
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

lee said: > Mr. Perathoner's TEI version of Alice in Wonderland > (http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/marcello/0.3/examples/alice/) > looks like it is much more complex, > and would be funner to play with. > I really like _Alice_ as an experimental text > because it has quite a few typographical oddities > which make it a good test case. alice is one of the most-frequently-used e-texts for e-book demos. maybe _the_ most. i worked up a z.m.l. version a while back. perhaps you'd like to create a version, too, in whatever format you like (openreader?), and we can do some real-world user testing? the proof _is_ in the pudding, don't you know... -bowerbird

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Re: [gutvol-d] ANNOUNCEMENT: XML has hit the PG archives! (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 26)
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

lee said: > What the hell were they thinking? c'mon lee, don't spoil their fun... ;+) actually, the infighting on that one was pretty fierce. and a good part of it was frontchannel and archived, so you can read through every bit of the gory details. (gee, according to branko, it's still going on! well, you know how a good argument is, you just can't stop talking about it. maybe you can go talk some sense into them, lee.) -bowerbird p.s. and yes, branko, you're absolutely right, this thread should be on the x.m.l. list, not here!

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Re: [gutvol-d] Re: unluckily for us (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24)
by Bowerbird＠aol.com 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

i said: > in z.m.l., anything surrounded by two or more blank lines > is a paragraph. pardon me. that's a goof. anything preceded by _one_ or more blank lines is considered to be a new paragraph in z.m.l. i sometimes accidentally mix up "blank lines" and "line-endings". _two_ consecutive line-endings (i.e., _one_ blank line) delineates a new paragraph. two blank lines constitutes a "thought break". three or more blank lines constitutes a new section. (three is more like a "subsection", while four marks the lowest-level section, five the next-lowest, etc.) > In z.m.l., anything surrounded by > two or more blank lines is structured text. wait a minute! _i_ make the rules for z.m.l., not you. :+) > When you can recognize a paragraph, i can recognize a paragraph. i just explained how, up above. > and distinquish it from a title "distinquish" is a nice word. what does it mean? to distinguish and then squish? :+) i can recognize a title too, and thus "distinguish" it. i just explained how, up above. > or a block quotation inside of a paragraph, what's so hard about that? it's very easy to recognize the block quotation -- because those things are indented in z.m.l. -- and if the paragraph above it was not terminated, then the block quote is "inside" of it. (well, due to how z.m.l. defines "a paragraph", the block-quote itself is its own "paragraph"... but there's no need to discuss these semantics.) at any rate, the z.m.l. viewer-program is happy to show you a listbox of all the paragraphs in the file, nicely numbered and everything. or it will show you a list of all the words in the file, also nicely numbered. and at the bottom of each page that it shows you, it gives the character-numbers and line-numbers of the range of text on that page. so an end-user will have an easy time quantifying exactly where they are. but you know what? very few of them ever have a need. > no matter how many blank lines surround them in z.m.l., blank lines are the very thing that _define_ paragraphs -- and titles too. so i am afraid that z.m.l. will never "be able to" do what you are asking. but... > then I'll be impressed. ...my goal is to render e-books properly, not impress you. -bowerbird

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Re: unluckily for us (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24)
by Lee Passey 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

Bowerbird(a)aol.com wrote: > lee said: > > Unluckily for us, Bowerbird has not yet > > released his algorithm for determining whether > > a block of unstructured text is a paragraph. > > oh gee, i'm sorry. i thought i had. > > in z.m.l., anything surrounded by two or more blank lines > is a paragraph. In z.m.l., anything surrounded by two or more blank lines is structured text. When you can recognize a paragraph, and distinquish it from a title or a block quotation inside of a paragraph, no matter how many blank lines surround them, then I'll be impressed.

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1950 periodicals renewals
by Greg Weeks 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

When looking for the periodicals renewals for 1950 last night I didn't find any. 1947 had about 900 renewals and 1951 had about 1000, but 1948, 1949 and 1950 didn't even have a renewals section in the book. This is "The Catalog of Copyright Entries" in the Carnegie Library. Does anyone know what's going on with these? I've got some journal entries I'm trying to put a rule 6 clearance together for and I neede information on 1950 through 1955. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/

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Re: User style sheets in Firefox (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 27)
by Lee Passey 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

Robert Cicconetti <grythumn(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On 8/24/05, Lee Passey <lee(a)novomail.net> wrote: > > >>Unfortunately, I haven't been able to figure out how to tell Firefox how >>to use a user specified css file (I've got version 1.0.4). If anyone can >>enlighten me on this score, I would be most grateful. Mr. Noring tells >>me that I can do it with Opera, but I've yet to try it. >> >> > >Put it in userContent.css? > >http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/edit#content > >R C > > I _thought_ that was what I had done, but at your urging I did some more experimentation. I finally discovered that on this particular box (Windows XP, which I ordinarily wouldn't use, but sometimes you have to compromise) the userContent.css file had to be in C:\Documents and Settings\lpassey\Application Data\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\0wlij0cb.default\chrome -- not the most intuitive location. Once I had found the right location it still didn't work until I had restarted Firefox, so apparently the .css file is loaded on startup, and not consulted thereafter -- great if you want to override HTML defaults, but not so good if you want to switch style sheets when looking at a particular document. And I haven't tested it yet but my guess is that this means it will _not_ override some of the screwy choices that some document authors choose to use. That is, if an HTML file links to "screwy.css" those style will be applied _after_ my preferences, not before. And the userContent.css styles are only applied to HTML documents, not to XML documents. Ah well, I guess our reach should always exceed our grasp, that's how progress is made. Thanks for your help.

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Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 27
by Wallace J.McLean 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

> The other three collections are editions of works > that were public domain at the time of the edition (eg `Best Known > Works: Defoe'). Other than any new material, arguably editorial changes, arguably (or certainly, in some jurisdictions) typographical arrangement, copyright would subsist in the compilation alone of a "Best Known Works" type dealie. Today's Topics: 1. Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: XML has hit the PG archives! (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 25) (Andrew Sly) 2. re: ANNOUNCEMENT: XML has hit the PG archives! (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 25) (Bowerbird(a)aol.com) 3. Re: on viewing the .pgtei file directly (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 23) (Robert Cicconetti) 4. TEI markup question (Andrew Sly) 5. newbie question: copyright editions of public domain works (Greg Smith) 6. Re: newbie question: copyright editions of public domain works (Andrew Sly) 7. Re: TEI markup question (Marcello Perathoner) 8. Re: TEI markup question (Joshua Hutchinson) 9. Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: XML has hit the PG archives! (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 19) (Brad Collins) 10. Re: TEI markup question (Jon Noring) _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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TEI markup question
by Andrew Sly 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

Here is a question for those interested in TEI markup. (non-constuctive answers will be ignored) Has anyone here had experience in marking up a passage which contains a couple of quoted lines of verse that clearly occur within a paragraph? Here is a particular example (from anne11.txt): == Begin Excerpt == The cows swung placidly down the lane, and Anne followed them dreamily, repeating aloud the battle canto from MARMION--which had also been part of their English course the preceding winter and which Miss Stacy had made them learn off by heart--and exulting in its rushing lines and the clash of spears in its imagery. When she came to the lines The stubborn spearsmen still made good Their dark impenetrable wood, she stopped in ecstasy to shut her eyes that she might the better fancy herself one of that heroic ring. When she opened them again it was to behold Diana coming through the gate that led into the Barry field and looking so important that Anne instantly divined there was news to be told. But betray too eager curiosity she would not. == End Excerpt == The first reaction, which I have seen done before, is to use a <p> then a <lg> then a <p>. This is not an ideal solution, (as I am sure Lee would not hesitate to point out). >From a semantic point of view the section beginning "she stopped in ecstasy to shut her eyes" is not structually a complete paragraph. From a presentational point of view, you are likely to get an undesirable styling on that last element if someone decides to have initial indentation on all paragraphs in the document. According to the PGTEI dtd, is it valid to have a <lg> within a <p>? If not, I don't suppose we can lable a <p> as Initial, Medial or Final as with the <l> element... Andrew

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Re: [gutvol-d] TEI markup question
by Joshua Hutchinson 25 Aug '05

25 Aug '05

I don't remember if you can place a <lg> within a <p> block, but ... You can put a rend="noindent" on the second paragraph to insure that it won't ever have an indention. As to what is the "right way to do it" ... I don't know. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Sly" <sly(a)victoria.tc.ca> > > Here is a question for those interested in TEI markup. > (non-constuctive answers will be ignored) > > Has anyone here had experience in marking up a passage > which contains a couple of quoted lines of verse that > clearly occur within a paragraph? > > Here is a particular example (from anne11.txt): > > == Begin Excerpt == > The cows swung placidly down the lane, and Anne followed them > dreamily, repeating aloud the battle canto from MARMION--which > had also been part of their English course the preceding winter > and which Miss Stacy had made them learn off by heart--and > exulting in its rushing lines and the clash of spears in its > imagery. When she came to the lines > > The stubborn spearsmen still made good > Their dark impenetrable wood, > > she stopped in ecstasy to shut her eyes that she might the better > fancy herself one of that heroic ring. When she opened them > again it was to behold Diana coming through the gate that led > into the Barry field and looking so important that Anne instantly > divined there was news to be told. But betray too eager > curiosity she would not. > > == End Excerpt == > > The first reaction, which I have seen done before, is > to use a <p> then a <lg> then a <p>. This is not an ideal > solution, (as I am sure Lee would not hesitate to point out). > > From a semantic point of view the section beginning "she > stopped in ecstasy to shut her eyes" is not structually > a complete paragraph. From a presentational point of > view, you are likely to get an undesirable styling on > that last element if someone decides to have initial > indentation on all paragraphs in the document. > > > According to the PGTEI dtd, is it valid to have a <lg> > within a <p>? > > If not, I don't suppose we can lable a <p> as Initial, Medial > or Final as with the <l> element... > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d(a)lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

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